SFX vs Power Modifier

[nexus]

Spawned from discussion [http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66401&page=5] As a GM

 

where do you draw the line between SFX and Advantage (or Limitation)?

[OddHat]

Re: SFX vs Power Modifier

 

I guess I'd go with a classic: "When it's so rare or such a small effect that it's unlikely to make a difference in more than one or two game sessions in the campaign, or if the benefits and drawbacks are minor and pretty much even out, it's not worth any points."

 

So, if Fire Guy wants to be able to start small, not all that important fires with his power, and those fires are under my control as the GM, I wouldn't ask him to pay points.

 

If he sometimes wanted some control over them, or they were likely to be important more than once or twice over the campaign, I'd ask him to buy an appropriate MP slot, power skill, or similar.

 

If he always did +1d6 to Water Boy or Ice Girl, and they always did +1d6 to him, I wouldn't charge any points.

 

If he wanted "+4d6 versus people with Water or Ice Powers", and they weren't doing +4d6 to him, I'd ask him to pay.

 

If Master Ninja could fire an energy blast defined as "Ninjas hit my foes", the Ninjas then immediately vanished, and the enemy didn't waste time targeting non-existent Ninjas, I wouldn't charge more than the base cost of an EB.

 

If Master Ninja could summon a real Ninja who hung around and fought, he would of course have to pay.

[Beast]

Re: SFX vs Power Modifier

 

both are battery should the target be unwilling

 

like you said the pain does have the pre bonus on it's side in my view

[OddHat]

Re: SFX vs Power Modifier

 

Ah. Read Hugh's post and the reply.

 

Actually, I'd say that the SFX of "Sleep Gas" vs "Pain Gas" do make an ethical difference if used on NPCs, even if both are defined as NND EBs.

[nexus]

Re: SFX vs Power Modifier

 

I wouldn't charge extra for Sleep gas though. I can think of too many ways it would be problematic (at least enough to balance out the small benefit its sfx gets it vs Spell of Deadening Agony).

[OddHat]

Re: SFX vs Power Modifier

 

I wouldn't charge extra for Sleep gas though. I can think of too many ways it would be problematic (at least enough to balance out the small benefit its sfx gets it vs Spell of Deadening Agony).

 

Sure, the cost would be the same. I just wouldn't treat NPCs reactions as the same. Cost only changes when the mechanical effect is enhanced or reduced.

 

Classic example would be the Orgasm Gun: 6d6 EB NND, defined as, well, an orgasm. If the player didn't expect more than a few NPCs to be furious at him for using it and a few others kind of happy about it, I wouldn't charge extra. If he wanted people to become addicted to the gun, I'd ask him to pay for a Ranged Transformation Attack with Gradual Effect and have him link it to the EB.

[nexus]

Re: SFX vs Power Modifier

 

Sure, the cost would be the same. I just wouldn't treat NPCs reactions as the same. Cost only changes when the mechanical effect is enhanced or reduced.

 

Needless to say that's how I feel about it but I've heard some dissenting opinions about it.

[Utech]

Re: SFX vs Power Modifier

 

Cost only changes when the mechanical effect is enhanced or reduced.

 

Character A: Painmaster has a NND EB with the SFX agonizing pain.

Character B: Funnyman has a mechanically identical NND EB with the SFX silly jokes make people laugh until they collapse in joy.

 

Character A must be careful about using his power because it clearly tortures people. He's about as restricted as a cop is from using a taser.

 

Character B doesn't have to be careful about using his power because it clearly doesn't hurt people. He's about as restricted as a popular stand-up comic.

 

Should Character A and Character B pay the same amount for their powers?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: SFX vs Power Modifier

 

Character A: Painmaster has a NND EB with the SFX agonizing pain.

Character B: Funnyman has a mechanically identical NND EB with the SFX silly jokes make people laugh until they collapse in joy.

 

Character A must be careful about using his power because it clearly tortures people. He's about as restricted as a cop is from using a taser.

 

Character B doesn't have to be careful about using his power because it clearly doesn't hurt people. He's about as restricted as a popular stand-up comic.

 

Should Character A and Character B pay the same amount for their powers?

 

I think that you have to say yes. The mechanical effects are the same. There ARE significant differences if your game often has the kind of social follow-up where the SFX are important but the drawbacks and bonuses are social and will vary wildly from game to game.

 

It would be valid for the GM to point out to the character about heroism and the problems particular SFX may have but I think as far as the game goes the powers are probably equivalent.

 

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: SFX vs Power Modifier

 

What Doc D said. FunnyMan can't intimidate targets with his power. "Talk - or I'll tell you a joke" doesn't seem much of a threat.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: SFX vs Power Modifier

 

What Doc D said. FunnyMan can't intimidate targets with his power. "Talk - or I'll tell you a joke" doesn't seem much of a threat.

 

Talk or I'll tickle you to death however is!

[OddHat]

Re: SFX vs Power Modifier

 

Should Character A and Character B pay the same amount for their powers?

 

If in a specific campaign the differences in sfx are significant enough to be worth points, the GM is free to require an advantage or limitation; by default, the builds are mechanically the same, and should cost the same number of points.

[Katherine]

Re: SFX vs Power Modifier

 

Should Character A and Character B pay the same amount for their powers?

 

That seems like it would be based on the campaign and how detailed the GM plans to get it. Funnyman's attack still renders the target unconscious against their will with all side effects that might have. He can't really use it willy nily against everyone without some repercussions either. Few people pass out at a comedy club so it seems like his effect is something more than "normal" laughter and suddenly keeling over in the middle the street in a uncontrollable giggle fit could have negative consequences too (even it's just peeing yourself).

[Utech]

Re: SFX vs Power Modifier

 

There seems to be a clear consensus here. I must say I'm surprised.

 

I suppose it seems much the same to me as having a power limited by situation. If one character can use their power all the time and the other only when it's, say, raining, they'd certainly differ in cost.

 

I don't see the difference here. But I'm clearly a minority of one. I appreciate all the posts in response. I'm done.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: SFX vs Power Modifier

 

If its a combat effect or precisely defined or otherwise parallels the effect of a base power or modifier then it needs a write up.

 

If its just shtick, has no significantly measurable effect, and / or is entirely in the GM's hands then I'll generally let it slide as SFX.

[Sean Waters]

Re: SFX vs Power Modifier

 

There seems to be a clear consensus here. I must say I'm surprised.

 

I suppose it seems much the same to me as having a power limited by situation. If one character can use their power all the time and the other only when it's, say, raining, they'd certainly differ in cost.

 

I don't see the difference here. But I'm clearly a minority of one. I appreciate all the posts in response. I'm done.

 

I suppose the question is this: do the purported sfx substantially change the overall utility of the power?

 

Take the pain gas/laugh gas thing - both would be seen by the law as an assualt, in all likelihood, both have the same mechanical effect. People would probably be less liklely to complain if they were KO'd by laughter than pain, but then they would be more afraid of pain than laughter. I'd say, overall, it balances.

 

That is not to say that there are not situations when the sfx that people purport to have are not sufficiently advantageous or limiting to warrant a cost implication, but not every sfx does because:

 

1. The GM can often balance sfx in play, even if they seem advantageous or limiting.

2. Points are often combat balanced more than role play balanced (IMO), so if the mechanical effect is identical I would be wary of changing the cost.

 

The Ultimate Energy Blaster discusses changing power costs based on sfx. Interesting book, but I'm not sure it quite works in practice.