Negative Strength and END cost

[Crypt]

What are the END cost for using negative Strength ? (in a heroic campaign)

[Alibear]

Re: Negative Strength and END cost

 

Maneuvers always cost 1 end iirc. Picking up a book or something which takes less than 3 str would cost zero end. Can you be more specific?

[Crypt]

Re: Negative Strength and END cost

 

Maneuvers always cost 1 end iirc. Picking up a book or something which takes less than 3 str would cost zero end. Can you be more specific?

 

 

So a -20 ST character lifting 1.6 kg (his max) will never lose END while a 10 ST lifting 100 kg (his max) will lose 2 END (heroic.)

 

That may seems a bit strange.

 

What are the reasons behind the fact that END costs for ST feats are not proportional to the (Feat/ST) ratio ?

(eg: END cost for lifting 1.6kg/-20ST = End cost for lifting 100kg/10ST)

 

 

I think there is a good reason but i don't see it clearly.

[Alibear]

Re: Negative Strength and END cost

 

The game was designed as a Supers game and retro conned to a universal system. I doubt if anything like your example comes up often enough to need a ruling.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Negative Strength and END cost

 

To put it another way, END is combat centric.

 

Negative STR will normally have little to no effect on the average combat therefore anything done with it specifically shouldn't cost END (with the exception of the default combat maneuvers which always cost END).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Negative Strength and END cost

 

This is a good question. the right answer has already been given, but it does make a bit of a nonsense of situations where, theoretically, two people liftin their maximum should be using roughly the same amount of effort and, even though the larger object requires more force (and so more energy to lift) both should feel it in terms of END.

 

Generally it comes up so infrequently that it is not worth too much worry, but it might be a quite realistic house rule addition to say that if you are lifting a weight in excess of what your casual strength can manage you have to spend at elast 1 END/phase.

[Crypt]

Re: Negative Strength and END cost

 

Picking up a book or something which takes less than 3 str would cost zero end.

 

 

this leads to another question => Is it official ?

I tend to see CHARs as Powers.

By following the general rounding method less than 3 ST would cost 0 END but by following the power rule page 102 the minimum cost per phase is 1 END.

 

Which one is the good one ?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Negative Strength and END cost

 

this leads to another question => Is it official ?

I tend to see CHARs as Powers.

By following the general rounding method less than 3 ST would cost 0 END but by following the power rule page 102 the minimum cost per phase is 1 END.

 

Which one is the good one ?

 

I'd say that characteristics are generally not considered a power, otherwise just supporting your own weight would cost END, which would be silly, so a small lift generally does not cost END, but if it comes up a lot - house rule it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Negative Strength and END cost

 

In part, the theory is that high STR characters tend to come equipped with more END, whether purchased or through higher CON.

 

The 0 STR character has 2 REC (assuming 8 -12 CON) by default where the 10 STR character has 4, so their ability to last also varies.

 

The cost of exerting maximum effort depends on whether one considers "maximum effort" to include pushing. 0 END vs 2 END is a significant spread. 12 END vs 14 END (Pushing 10 points plus the END cost of the extra 10 points) is much less significant.

 

At the end, though, the END system was designed as a "higher power abilities take more END" structure. A character with 4" Running and one with 40" running would have the same discrepancy when "running as fast as I can".

[Crypt]

Re: Negative Strength and END cost

 

Third question =>

 

Let's say my 10ST character is trying to lift 100 kg, without moving (for instance he lifts a gate so his friends can walk under it.)

 

It would costs 2 END per phase (heroic.)

 

This character has SPD 4.

 

Would you agree to the fact that, because he doesn't move, the more logical thing to do is to reduce his SPD to 2 in order to spend only 4 per turn instead of 8 ?

 

 

EDIT: i think i would not allow a post-segment 12 Recovery here (if he keeps lifting the gate.) What is your opinion ?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Negative Strength and END cost

 

Third question =>

 

Let's say my 10ST character is trying to lift 100 kg, without moving (for instance he lifts a gate so his friends can walk under it.)

 

It would costs 2 END per phase (heroic.)

 

This character has SPD 4.

 

Would you agree to the fact that, because he doesn't move, the more logical thing to do is to reduce his SPD to 2 in order to spend only 4 per turn instead of 8 ?

 

 

EDIT: i guess i would not allow a post-segment 12 Recovery here. What is your opinion ?

 

Aren't characters assumed to be at 2 SPD outside combat anyway? The issue here seems less "how much END is spent to lift" as "how often is it spent".

 

And PS 12 reflects the body's natural recovery mechanisms - there's no reason he should be denied one. If he drops the gate, he can recover 5 times in a turn instead, pausing briefly to catch his breath.

[Crypt]

Re: Negative Strength and END cost

 

Aren't characters assumed to be at 2 SPD outside combat anyway?

 

This is a combat situation. There is a fight and one of the character is lifting the gate in order to help his friends fleeing the big red dragon who's charging them.

 

 

And PS 12 reflects the body's natural recovery mechanisms - there's no reason he should be denied one. If he drops the gate, he can recover 5 times in a turn instead, pausing briefly to catch his breath.

 

So in this combat situation the character would never get tired of lifting the gate (let's say he has REC 4.)

I'm not sure lifting the maximum you can is so different from holding breath.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Negative Strength and END cost

 

This is a combat situation. There is a fight and one of the character is lifting the gate in order to help his friends fleeing the big red dragon who's charging them.

 

Then he probably doesn't WANT to reduce his speed.

 

So in this combat situation the character would never get tired of lifting the gate (let's say he has REC 4.)

I'm not sure lifting the maximum you can is so different from holding breath.

 

Spending 4 END (and dropping to 2 SPD) would reduce him to long term END costs, so he can't do this indefinitely, although he could do it for a long time.

 

He's not lifting "the maximum" he can - he could Push and lift more. That would very quickly tire him. He's lifting the maximum he can lift and sustain under normal circumstances.

 

Note that, if the gate is 100kg, his 10 STR is not adequate to bend down, heft, shove the gate up to the roof and stand there cheerfully. That "maximum" represents the amount the character can get off the ground and stagger a few short steps with. I'd let him heft the gate high enough off the ground to allow a person to belly crawl under, and hold it about a phase (3 seconds at 4 SPD, and 3 seconds seems reasonable) before his strength gives out and the gate comes crashing down. He can, of course, heft it up again if desired.

 

One could certainly build a more complex END system that assumes X END (or X% of your END) is used to access Y% of your potential in various abilities, but that's a lot more complex than I want to bookkeep. If I want perfect realism, it's generally available in reality, and I can pretty much be in reality whenever I choose.

[Crypt]

Re: Negative Strength and END cost

 

He's not lifting "the maximum" he can - he could Push and lift more. That would very quickly tire him. He's lifting the maximum he can lift and sustain under normal circumstances.

 

Ok. It seems fine.

 

 

One could certainly build a more complex END system that assumes X END (or X% of your END) is used to access Y% of your potential in various abilities, but that's a lot more complex than I want to bookkeep.

 

Does anyone know if it has already being done by someone ?

 

 

If I want perfect realism, it's generally available in reality, and I can pretty much be in reality whenever I choose.

 

Sometimes playing very normal peoples in a realistic way can be fun. For instance in a horror scenario. (I'd like to use HERO for absolutely every theme)

[OddHat]

Re: Negative Strength and END cost

 

I'd say that characteristics are generally not considered a power' date=' otherwise just supporting your own weight would cost END, which would be silly, so a small lift generally does not cost END, but if it comes up a lot - house rule it.[/quote']

 

Well, just supporting your own weight does require effort. Heavier people generally burn more calories even when resting, assuming metabolically active tissue ratios remain the same; for example, muscle is far more metabolically active than fat, so someone carrying 20 extra pounds of muscle will burn roughly 780 or more calories per day than someone carrying 20 extra pounds of fat.*

 

If END reflected calories burned, it should be calculated based on activity, body weight, body fat percentage, muscle fiber type and motor unit recruitment, cardiovascular fitness and neural efficiency. It would be an unplayable mess.

 

So, I agree, it would be silly. Hero is a game system; if debatable "realism" interferes with playability, realism can go suck an egg.

 

*Citation: Dr. Mhemet Oz and Dr. Michael Roizen, 2007, You: the Owner's Manual

[SteveZilla]

Re: Negative Strength and END cost

 

this leads to another question => Is it official ?

I tend to see CHARs as Powers.

By following the general rounding method less than 3 ST would cost 0 END but by following the power rule page 102 the minimum cost per phase is 1 END.

 

Which one is the good one ?

 

Hey, if it takes 1 END to use zero inches of Flight to hover in midair, it seems to me that a power that costs END to use never has it's END cost rounded down to zero regardless of how little one is using. Only buying it to Zero END can make it cost no END.

 

EDIT: Though this is at odds with a strict interpretation of "standing upright". A character must have at least a 0 STR to do so. The non-strict interpretation is that as long as a character has some STR (i.e., it's not negative), they can support their own weight. STR is a meausre of how much *more* a character can lift, not a meausre of how much total (body + load) they can lift.