How do you put someone to sleep?

[Checkmate]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

A potential problem is that, whilst being out of stun accurately simulates BEING asleep, it does not accurately simulate the state of sleep, eg that you can wake up if disturbed but probably won't if not disturbed until all your sleep needs are fulfilled, so, for instance, if you put someone who has been awake for 18 hours to sleep, you have a reasonable expectation that, absent outside stimulii, they will probably remain asleep for several hours. The Nostun=sleep hypothesis does not account for that.

 

No problem calling a stun attack a sleep spell, but it doesn't really simulate the way sleep works; as a straightforward power, not a problem, but you need a more complex build to do 'real' sleep.

Again, make the minor changes due to SFX. Use forced recoveries (and this applies to your last post also). If someone makes a lot of noise you've given them a forced recovery.

 

We all agree that a Sleep Spell shouldn't be automatic. There has to be some conflict resolution going on, what we're arguing is which method of conflict resolution best simulates a sleep spell.

 

If you take two most popular options presented so far: Mind Control and STUN Removal, both have to have some fudging to work properly. Mind Control requires the GM to say that "Yes you can force what may be considered by some, involuntary actions." Then with Mind Control, you really haven't make the target sleepy, you've just forced them to go to sleep. They will constantly be fighting it (Breakout rolls), even if you lay them in a sound proof room with the most comfortable bed.

 

With the Stun Removal, you have to say that if it becomes too loud, that will force a recovery, as well as a few other things. What I like about the STUN Removal better than the Mind Control, is when you break out of the Mind Control, it's like nothing happened. The STUN Removal actually makes you tired. When you do wake up, you're still groggy ie haven't recovered all your STUN and END. I like it better because it makes your body tired so you sleep rather than over riding your rational thought to convince you you're tired.

 

After all that, which one I'd use would depend on what I wanted to accomplish. If it was a master hypnotist that was putting people to sleep I'd use the Mind Control. If it was a spell that physically made the target tired so they wanted to sleep, I'd use the STUN Removal.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

The Cat Without a Name* had an 8d6 [Edit: My memory started working right and it wasn't 8d6 but 4d6. Sorry!] fully invisible ego attack defined as the ability to psionically induce a state of narcolepsy.

 

* This guy:

[CTaylor]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

I'd offer that the difference between asleep and unconscious is not a question of state but of degree. Lara Flynn Boyle or not, if you turn a hose on someone you sapped, they'll tend to wake up. And you can sleep so hard you can't be woken up by anything. I've been so hard asleep people had to shake me and yell to awaken me. Degrees, not states.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

I think that most GMs would agree that a Mind Control command to "Drop Dead" is better modeled by other powers. Cheaper, too, when you consider the astronomical target number you'd be rolling for.

 

There are good ways to use other powers to model Mind Control commands like:

 

• have a heart attack
  
• be blind
  
• trigger all the adrenaline in your body to dump at once
  
• do not move
  
• drop dead
  

But so far I have found that the only really satisfying alternative power for modeling putting someone to sleep is Transform.

 

What if I simply want to be able to command people to do any of those things, or go to slep, or turn down their stereo, or what have you? By your logic, it is POSSIBLE to force them to take those actions using mind control.

 

And where do you get these huge modifiers from? "Violently opposed to doing" is Ego +30. If the order contradicts psychological limitations, another +10 is imposed. A poorly conceived or contradictory order imposes an extra +5. At worst, that is Ego +45. That's as high as it goes.

 

Now, getting a roll that high on a single attempt requires some pretty hefty numbers. But they're the same numbers required to get CatMan (Fear of Water) to "Dive off the pier and swim to CatLand". +45 is as high as it goes - I can send CatMan for a swim, or I can, if I follow your interpretation, have him stop his own heart and perish instantly. In my view, CatMan is capable of diving in the water and trying to swim to CatLand. He is not capable of dropping dead.

 

And why DID that mentalist in UM have to command the target to climb to the top of the building and hurl himself off? "Drop Dead!" would have been equally effective, and had no time for breakout rolls.

 

I'd offer that the difference between asleep and unconscious is not a question of state but of degree. Lara Flynn Boyle or not' date=' if you turn a hose on someone you sapped, they'll tend to wake up. And you can sleep so hard you can't be woken up by [i']anything[/i]. I've been so hard asleep people had to shake me and yell to awaken me. Degrees, not states.

 

This is very true. Smelling salts are often used to awaken unconscious people. I sat in a hotel lobby last winter while the staff spent five minutes trying to wake up an elderly gentleman also in the lobby. No medical issue - but he was deeply asleep.

 

Practically, the ability (or lack of same) to recover from being knocked unconscious is no more accurately simulated by the Hero rules than using a STUN removal attack to simulate putting the target to sleep.

[Utech]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

I really don't think we're getting anywhere, Hugh. I appreciate your thoughts. We disagree. And we're going in circles. I've answered each of your points already and clearly haven't convinced you. That's fine.

 

Let's let it go.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

OK, you can help unconscious people to wake up by hosing them down (Lara did come round eventually, but I had to get quite creative witht he water stream), but what is a shade more difficult is that other aspect of sleep - you tend to REMAIN asleep, unless you are fully rested or disturbed.

 

Being Hero you can, of course, build this. Either you reduce someone's STUN to -30 or more (in which case their recoveries aer at GM discretion), or you build an uncontrolled stun drain, with the 'switch off' condition being that you have fully rested or you are disturbed.

 

Sleep, My Pretty

Drain STUN 2d6, Uncontrolled (Switches off if you are fully rested or stimulated to consciousness; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Continuous (+1) (60 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Maximum effect: will not drain the character lower than -16 stun; -1/4)

60 Active/48 Real

 

Certainly not instant, but it should work, and work reasonably realistically (2d6 STUN should mean that you will always be losing some STUN each turn, even if we are working on SPD 1). Of course because stun is used as a general meter of consiousness, we have the rather odd situation that if you have just, for instance, endured a painful whipping, this effect will make you sleep more quickly, whereas you might think that the pain could easily keep you awake.

 

Ah well. More 'Limited Power' limitations, perhaps...maybe even just one, pegged around -1/2 'Real Sleep' so, for instance, being in considerable pain may 'break' the effect even before you sleep, at the GM's discretion.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

The more we discuss this the more convinced I am that "sleeping" lies in the province of SFX and needs to be worked out with the GM. As we have seen, many different effects can potentially be used to simulate sleep in the hero system. I suspect that since people don't tend to spontaneously fall asleep during a battle the game designers didn't consider it important to define sleep as thoroughly as "stunned", "knocked out" or "unconscious".

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

The more we discuss this the more convinced I am that "sleeping" lies in the province of SFX and needs to be worked out with the GM. As we have seen' date=' many different effects can potentially be used to simulate sleep in the hero system. I suspect that since people don't tend to spontaneously fall asleep during a battle the game designers didn't consider it important to define sleep as thoroughly as "stunned", "knocked out" or "unconscious".[/quote']

 

I think that is right, but you can build more or less anything witht his system. Of course you really need to start by deciding what it is you want to end up with. Here's another couple of examples (the supress being particularly frightening, IMO). The transform has the advantage that the GM does get to decide what the effects are, without necessarily having to mechanically define them, and it works against EGO and mental defences, which seems appropriate.

 

Suppress 3d6, Cumulative (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Continuous (+1) (52 Active Points)

 

Major Transform 1d6 (Conscious brain to unconscious brain, Healed by anything that would wake you up normally), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Based On EGO Combat Value (Mental Defense applies; +1) (60 Active Points)