Alignments

[Clonus]

Putting my response somewhere more appropriate.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1614261&postcount=219

 

 

 

So you suggest we build the Power Barbarian Rage with "Can Only Be Used By Alignment SuchandSuch (-?)". Nope, that does not work, because that is either no limitation (if you are of that alignment then it does not limit you in any way), or it is a limitation so limiting you will never be able to use that power. Technically, that power should cost 0 points. HERO does not tell you what you are allowed to buy. We don't *want* classes in this game.

 

If you want rules on how you build characters, go to the page that explains on Campaign and Setting and make something up, all the tools are there. It has nothing to do with the rules itself.

 

Yes, you're right that it's a campaign-world specific issue but it's still a FAQ that I think should be dealt with in some kind of Ultimate Fantasy Hero source book somewhat thusly:

 

One hero approach that has already been used repeatedly would be to treat Chaos as a special effect, not a limitation or a disadvantage. Thus a D&D Barbarian would have Rage and Chaos would be the campaign universes mandatory special effect for Rage. That would mean that Detect Chaos would pick up any Barbarian with that power, people who have the Psych Lim "Intolerant of Chaos" would dislike them and the GM might suggest or mandate that anyone with the Rage power also take, say a Susceptibility to Order artifacts.

 

At the same time, however, there is no inherent problem with the idea that a power could be bought with the limitation "Only as long as you haven't angered your god" so there's no real reason why they couldn't be bought with the -1/4 "Only as long as you haven't angered your Abstract Metaphysical Concept". Some versions of alignment have them actually as the Team Jerseys of the gods, so they'd be the same thing.

 

This of course would mean that people who have no powers (including no magic weapons) would not generally Detect as aligned even if they are in fact followers of Evil or Law or Darkness or whatever alignments you have. I have no problem with that.

 

(Then again it's possible simply spending time in a Temple of Chaos or under a Chaotic spell would cause you to detect as Chaotic for days afterward if you had no Lawful powers and vice versa. It rubs off, you know.)

[Curufea]

Re: Alignments

 

Or for alignments, you could apply a blanket -10 environmental modifier to any roll for the player to actually be able to roleplay.

 

On the flip side though, this gives bonuses to generalisations and any racism modifiers used in play.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Alignments

 

I think alignment has its place. In a world that is very morally and ethically gray, it might be worthwhile to add an artificial demarcation of Good, Evil, Law and Chaos. Then, one can call oneself Good and declare some war on all Evil and Terrible things. And one could call oneself Lawful by claiming to follow some external ethic structure or Chaotic by claiming that one was doing so to be an individual, just like everyone else whose Chaotic...

 

Umm, well, there's nothing wrong with alignments, as a general concept.

[Clonus]

Re: Alignments

 

Sometimes I find myself wondering whether it's that people think Hero System can't handle a world such as Witch World, or Elric, or for that matter Ars Magica or whether they just think no such world could ever be worth playing in.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Alignments

 

Alignments have a bad rep. However, I do not think that the Hero System should be excluded from using them.

 

I dont think that referring back to the drawn out arguments that have dogged D&D need get brought into this thread.

 

I guess the true Hero response to such a question is:

 

What do you want alignments to represent in your game world?

 

I can see where you would use them - detect evil/good are obvious spells in a fantasy world and you could easily get into all kinds of existential arguments about what is evil and what is good.

 

Gods provide decent archetypes and if the alignments are presented as affiliation to particular deities in the game world then you get all kinds of possibilities in game play.

 

 

Doc

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Alignments

 

The war between Good and Evil, Light and Darkness, Chaos and Law, or Heaven and Hell, is the fundamental building block of most fantasy stories. How else can you keep a scorecard? I think Hero does this with Psych Limits, Hunted or Watched, and sometimes Succeptibilities and Vulnerabilities. If you wanted to go whole hog, you could easily mock up some package deals. Actually, that could be interesting.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Alignments

 

In Hero, an alignment is like a political party. You choose the one that best fits your views of the world, and when it stops fitting, you go somewhere else. The best way to use the concept, IMO, is to use general descriptions of what Law and Chaos, etc, mean, and rather than shoehorn the PCs into one of the categories, let their actions speak for themselves.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Alignments

 

In Hero' date=' an alignment is like a political party. You choose the one that best fits your views of the world, and when it stops fitting, you go somewhere else. The best way to use the concept, IMO, is to use general descriptions of what Law and Chaos, etc, mean, and rather than shoehorn the PCs into one of the categories, let their actions speak for themselves.[/quote']

 

In most systems, alignment is like a political party in that you reflect what you do. It is just that in fantasy worlds that political alignment can have impacts on what you do and what can affect you.

 

In our world there is no way to say which political party a person follows simply by observing them.

 

In a fantasy world Protection from Tories 10' radius would, if you were a Tory prevent you from going within 10' of the caster or affecting him with your nasty, greed inducing powers.

 

So it needs to be in the system somehow.

 

Personally I would go with Distinctive Feature - it is a simple disad that each person could choose if they wished. If they were not a good person there would be a certain amount of spells they would not be able to acquire/be affected by, if they were good then there would be a certain number of spells that they would be able to acquire/be affected by.

 

It would mean that their actions would be limited but that they would have a choice in that. The GM could decide whether they were abiding by that disadvantage and if they were not could take action the same way if someone was not paying attention to their "Code against killing"

 

 

Stephen

[Markdoc]

Re: Alignments

 

My friend Fitz had an interesting idea which I rather liked. That was that most people and most things didn't have an alignment but that there were powers of Darkness and Light, Chaos and Order who could and did interfere. In this setting, having an alignment was something you actively chose. By choosing for example "Lawful Good" or "Neutral Evil" you were explicitly aligning yourself with a specific set of powerful divinities. That had some advantages - as long as those divinities noticed you and liked your activities, they might lend a little help: some divine power, the assistance of another allied Hero or creature, even some divine intervention if you were important enough, recruitment into their heaven if you die taking one for the team, etc. However, by choosing an alignment you also marked yourself out as a player in the game - and people with the right magic or powers could tell that: so it brought you some serious negatives as well. The divinities in question might expect a bit of grovelling, they might expect you to help other aligned heroes or to carry out some quest and you have a big invisible sign on your forehead saying "Stab me!" that some players on the opposing teams can see. It also means that certain places or items could be dedicated to a certain alignment also.

 

That to me sounds like an interesting setting - and a decent use for alignment.

 

cheers, Mark

[mallet]

Re: Alignments

 

You could just treat alignments as a "Special Effect" applied to the whole character. Just like powers can have "fire" or "ice" or "acid" as a special effect.

 

Then all the builds in the campaign (monsters, weapons, armor, etc...) that might apply to alignment can be have Susceptibilities or Vulnerabilities to these "special effects".

 

Sword does x2 STUN vs Evil characters.

x1/2 BOD from Neutral attacks.

 

The rules already exist for doing more and less damage from attacks/Defenses based on special effects. If Alignment is important enough in your campaign then just make it a special effect of the character.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Alignments

 

My friend Fitz had an interesting idea which I rather liked. That was that most people and most things didn't have an alignment but that there were powers of Darkness and Light' date=' Chaos and Order who could and did interfere. In this setting, having an alignment was something you actively chose. By choosing for example "Lawful Good" or "Neutral Evil" you were explicitly aligning yourself with a specific set of powerful divinities. That had some advantages - as long as those divinities noticed you and liked your activities, they might lend a little help: some divine power, the assistance of another allied Hero or creature, even some divine intervention if you were important enough, recruitment into their heaven if you die taking one for the team, etc. However, by choosing an alignment you also marked yourself out as a player in the game - and people with the right magic or powers could tell that: so it brought you some serious negatives as well. The divinities in question might expect a bit of grovelling, they might expect [i']you[/i] to help other aligned heroes or to carry out some quest and you have a big invisible sign on your forehead saying "Stab me!" that some players on the opposing teams can see. It also means that certain places or items could be dedicated to a certain alignment also.

 

That to me sounds like an interesting setting - and a decent use for alignment.

 

cheers, Mark

This is the route that D&D4e is going actually. heh

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Alignments

 

Alignment

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Alignments

 

In most systems, alignment is like a political party in that you reflect what you do. It is just that in fantasy worlds that political alignment can have impacts on what you do and what can affect you.

 

Well, that is one interpretation, although many RPGs have an interpretation more like police state, where one incorrect action can land a character in hot water with the establishment, and casually changing from one to another is not allowed.

 

As far as whether a "Protection from" alignment spell works on a person, I'd say it would be best to account for motivations. If A is attacking B because B is an extortionist who has threatened A's family, then B's use of Protection from Good would affect A. If the same person A is after B because B stole A's girlfriend away, Protection from Good would not apply. In Hero, very few people are all good or all evil, so these broad-brush alignment systems don't apply quite so well.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Alignments

 

My friend Fitz had an interesting idea which I rather liked. That was that most people and most things didn't have an alignment but that there were powers of Darkness and Light' date=' Chaos and Order who could and did interfere. In this setting, having an alignment was something you actively chose. By choosing for example "Lawful Good" or "Neutral Evil" you were explicitly aligning yourself with a specific set of powerful divinities. That had some advantages - as long as those divinities noticed you and liked your activities, they might lend a little help: some divine power, the assistance of another allied Hero or creature, even some divine intervention if you were important enough, recruitment into their heaven if you die taking one for the team, etc. However, by choosing an alignment you also marked yourself out as a player in the game - and people with the right magic or powers could tell that: so it brought you some serious negatives as well. The divinities in question might expect a bit of grovelling, they might expect [i']you[/i] to help other aligned heroes or to carry out some quest and you have a big invisible sign on your forehead saying "Stab me!" that some players on the opposing teams can see. It also means that certain places or items could be dedicated to a certain alignment also.

 

That to me sounds like an interesting setting - and a decent use for alignment.

 

cheers, Mark

 

This would work well in Hero, too, IMO (probably where you guys were using it anyway, eh?). The people aren't capital G Good or capital E Evil, but they are making a conscious decision to ally themselves with supernatural powers that are.

[Clonus]

Re: Alignments

 

In Hero' date=' very few people are all good or all evil, so these broad-brush alignment systems don't apply quite so well.[/quote']

 

Alignment has nothing to do with being paragons of perfection. Was Elric perfectly evil or good or even chaotic? No. Was he aligned? Yes. You'll note that I didn't discuss psych lims at all in my opening post. With what I was suggesting there was no particular reason why you could not be a generally nice person with Evil powers who would therefore detect as Evil, or even a really nice person who spent a while under an Evil spell or in an Evil temple and therefore detects as Evil until the stench wears off.

 

Well, that is one interpretation, although many RPGs have an interpretation more like police state, where one incorrect action can land a character in hot water with the establishment, and casually changing from one to another is not allowed.

.

 

Of course, all of those RPGs have been out of print for the last twenty-odd years. And of course two of them were the Marvel Roleplaying Game and the DC Heroes Roleplaying game both of which dealt with subject matter that quite a lot of Hero System gamers play in.

 

(Of course in real comic books turning evil makes you more powerful and sexier but less able to play well with others.)

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Alignments

 

As far as whether a "Protection from" alignment spell works on a person' date=' I'd say it would be best to account for motivations. If A is attacking B because B is an extortionist who has threatened A's family, then B's use of Protection from Good would affect A. If the same person A is after B because B stole A's girlfriend away, Protection from Good would not apply. [/quote']

 

This kind of application has the potential for some mega arguments round the gaming table.

 

Once you have to decide who is or is not evil based on actions and motivations then you are as well getting rid of stuff like Detect Evil. Too much aggro.

 

In Hero' date=' very few people are all good or all evil, so these broad-brush alignment systems don't apply quite so well.[/quote']

 

In any game few people are all good or all evil it's just the way they are drawn...

 

 

I always had a problem with people who thought that stuff written down on character sheets that restricted the actions of the character limited roleplaying opportunities (most often heard in my experience playing Pendragon). To me it maximised the roleplaying opportunity because I (the player) had to work out why the character wanted to be greedy or cowardly or callous in particular situations where I would not have.

 

I always thought of alignment as a mechanical thing with hints to roleplay style whereas so many people seemed to simply think of it as an excuse to play stereotypes...or an excuse for anti-social behaviour.

 

 

Doc

[Curufea]

Re: Alignments

 

I'm going with Nietzsche on this one. It's all subjective. "protection from evil" is as perceived by the caster. This means if a child cast it, they wouldn't be punished for their misdeeds by a loving parent.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Alignments

 

Why does this person want alignments in the game ?

What does that word mean inside fantasy hero ?

Why arent psych disads enough?

Shouldnt every player just have one or two psych disads,

or possibly an enraged that defines how they look at life ?

 

 

It's all subjective. "protection from evil" is as perceived by the caster

nope, there are absolutes. thanks anyways, please try again.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Alignments

 

nope' date=' there are absolutes. thanks anyways, please try again.[/quote']

 

There is nothing gained from the absolute truth.

 

---

 

On topic:

 

I would go with Killer Shrike's suggestion of a Distinctive Feature. The detection conditions could be completely magical/supernatural or so.

 

If someone casts a "Smite Good" spell on their war-hammer the next person with a DF: X-Good that is hit gets squooshed.

 

I've used this to some pretty interesting game effect - granted it was not a Fantasy game, it was a High Powered game and the character has the DF: Evil. The tricky part was that she was, in fact, one of the Heros - she just had either a very broken moral compass or morals that no one really understood. The jury is still out on that one (and the campaign ended a year ago).

[Curufea]

Re: Alignments

 

nope' date=' there are absolutes. thanks anyways, please try again.[/quote']

 

Ah yes - I forgot about that - in the D&D universe they are absolutes. There is gods and planes of the things as well.

I don't know how that filters down to sentient beings though - if person A does something to person B that is Good for A and Evil for B - I guess it gets classed as Neutral. As in animals attacking humans for food reasons.

[sbarron]

Re: Alignments

 

If I were to ever do alignments, I might do it as something the GM exclusively tracked. I'd let the PCs tell me where they started, but I'd track them over time to see if they actually acted in their proscribed manner. If they didn't, I'd change them to something else after a while. I think D&D used to have a chart for tracking alignment, didn't they? Something like that.

 

However, I'd never tell the player that his character was acting out of alignment. So, after a while, maybe the good character starts being detected as evil, or maybe his "good only" powers stop being effective. I can almost bet he'd still "think" he was good, despite all his actions to the contrary.

 

The idea that there are absolutes doesn't work for me. A destitute father steals bread from his noble landlord to feed his kids. To the kids, the dad is clearly good, because he's providing them with life. To the landlord, the dirty peasant is clearly evil, and lazy to boot, because stealing is wrong.

 

300 years ago, Tribe A attacked Tribe B and takes their land. Tribe B is forced to take land from Tribe C. Is Tribe B evil for not nobly taking their beating and dying out? In this example, Tribe A could be called the root of "evil," but what is Tribe B? Tribe C certainly thinks Tribe B is evil.

 

300 years later, when Tribe B comes back and takes the land back from Tribe A, are the roles reversed? No one in Tribe A ever attacked anyone in Tribe B. No one in Tribe B ever lived on their "ancesteral" lands that they feel are theirs. Is Tribe B "justified?" Are they evil for killing to take back what was once their tribe's?

 

Pol Pot was directly responsible for the death of a million people. Ok, that's evil. Suppose later in life he regretted his killing, becomes a buddist monk, and keeps a vow to never hurt another living thing. 5 years after his vow, does he still radiate evil?

 

Is killing kobald children a "good" act?

 

This stuff is all to murky for me to quantify "alignment" in a game. So I generally tend to avoid it.

[Clonus]

Re: Alignments

 

Why does this person want alignments in the game ?

What does that word mean inside fantasy hero ?

Why arent psych disads enough?

 

.

 

Psych disads can easily be irrelevant. Take Inuyasha. Inuyasha has two alignments, "Celestial" and "Demonic". There is no psych lim that defines either of these alignments, although it's possible to lose celestial powers by failing to keep oneself "pure" (but thats a product of actions not beliefs. Eat meat, touch corpses or bodily fluids without purifying oneself afterward, or indulge lust and gluttony and it doesn't matter how benevolent you are because it isn't about whether you are "good". It's about whether you are "pure".) Demonic people tend to be nasty customers, but some of them are individuals of considerable benevolence...which will not get them through that saintly barrier on that mountain. If they try it, they'll fry.

[Lucius]

Re: Alignments

 

Sometimes I find myself wondering whether it's that people think Hero System can't handle a world such as Witch World' date=' or Elric, or for that matter Ars Magica or whether they just think no such world could ever be worth playing in.[/quote']

 

What does that have to do with Alignment?

 

 

 

Okay, I'm kidding. But more seriously, when you say "alignment" something like Witch World is emphatically NOT what I think of, nor would I ever use the word "alignment" in describing that world. I have only a passing familiarity with the Elric stories, and no first hand knowledge of Ars Magica so I can't comment.

 

So when you say "a world such as Witch World," etc. I think there's a fundamental miscommunication going on - if that's what YOU think is meant by the word "alignment" then I suspect the word simply does not mean to you the same things it means to the rest of us.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Aligning a palindromedary

[Curufea]

Re: Alignments

 

What does that have to do with Alignment?

 

 

 

Okay, I'm kidding. But more seriously, when you say "alignment" something like Witch World is emphatically NOT what I think of, nor would I ever use the word "alignment" in describing that world. I have only a passing familiarity with the Elric stories, and no first hand knowledge of Ars Magica so I can't comment.

 

So when you say "a world such as Witch World," etc. I think there's a fundamental miscommunication going on - if that's what YOU think is meant by the word "alignment" then I suspect the word simply does not mean to you the same things it means to the rest of us.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Aligning a palindromedary

 

I'm assuming he's mentioning Elric because Elric worships a god of chaos. Elric himself is of course more complex than "alignment-chaotic" and is frequently law abiding.

[Clonus]

Re: Alignments

 

What does that have to do with Alignment?

 

 

 

Okay, I'm kidding. But more seriously, when you say "alignment" something like Witch World is emphatically NOT what I think of,

 

What word would you use to describe the division between the Light and the Dark in Witch World and people's affiliation with the respective sides?