How do you visualize combat?

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

I'll tell you how I don't visualise combat. I really don't like the idea of a block being described as 'I stand there and take it'. I might let you do that with a 'roll with punch', but not a block: that's just silly. I stab him with a knife. He stands there grinning as the knife bounces off his chin.

 

To my way of thinking, a block has to involve some movement, and I'll tell you why: if you have your character glooped to a wall, unable to move, but you can 'stand there and take it by tensing up my muscles', or whatever, then there is no logical reason you should not be able to block just as effectively in that situation. Moreover it may well give the false impression that the target has much higher defences than thay in fact do, and this sort of misleading information is not, and should not be, a part of Hero combat. Unless there is a skill or power at work disguising the true nature of what is happening, then it should be obvious to an observer what is happening.

 

So, I pretty much always require a dodge to be 'getting out of the way' (and usually involves no contact) and a block to be interposing or deflecting an attack (and usually involves some contact). Both require movement, obviously, even if it is movement on the spot. That is not to say that I am suggesting that all maneouvres have to have a set 'look', they don't, and it is a strength of the system that a 4d6 HtH attack could be a punch or a kick, or whatever, but I am saying that there are limits to how you should be able to describe a particular action.

 

Ironic, given what I suggested above, eh?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

...but I am saying that there are limits to how you should be able to describe a particular action.

 

...

 

And those are already in place.

 

The limit is not in the specific description itself but rather its consistent future use by that character in that game.

 

If a player wants to define his character's Block as "Taking it on the Chin" then EVERY time that character uses the Block maneuver it looks like that. That's the 'default' SFX for that maneuver for that character. However, the SFX does not remove any other requirements for using the maneuver (being free to move hands and/or legs). The character might just need to put his fists on his hips. But again, it's just whatever the player defines.

[nexus]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

I don't really have a problem with someone describing their Block as "an active evasion that puts their opponent off balance" or something similar. Base "DCV" can be just about anything, depending on genre. I remember a note in the 4th Ed Ninja Hero that most "misses" in Martial arts films look like parries and "blocks" and that always made sense to me.

 

I think Sean has a point that some things push the envelope but it boils down to sfx, genre appropriateness and dramatic sense. Getting a "chin block" style maneuver wouldn't be appropriate in a gritty "realistic" campaign but in a swashbuckler style setting? Sure, why not? A mystic martial arts style might have a "Block" that involves focusing chi at the impact point to make it temporarily invulnerable. And sfx can make a difference sometimes. A "Chin Block" might not stop an attack that only requires physical contact to work, for example, but OTOH it could offer a bonus to Pre attacks. The GM and player should work together to determine what's appropriate from setting to setting, campaign to campaign. I don't think a "universal" list of approved special effects for maneuvers and powers would be a great benefits but some gming notes about them might be

[Utech]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

I'm much more interested in telling the sort of story the Players want to tell than setting in stone how we describe the results of a roll of the dice.

 

If one character's schtick is being nearly invulnerable, then I'm going to help tell that story. When a bad guy misses Mr. Invulnerable, I might describe it as a hit. A hit that Mr. Invulnerable barely notices. Hooray!

 

If one character's schtick is being able to take a licking and keep on ticking, then I'm going to help tell that story. When a bad guy misses Timex, I might describe it as a hit. A hit that staggers Timex for a moment before he shakes it off and returns his steely glare back to the man who struck him.

 

If one character's schtick is being able to dodge pretty much anything in Dodge, then I'm going to help tell that story. When a bad guy misses Dodgy by just a tad, I might describe it as missing by a mile.

 

Etc.

 

At no time will I allow the descriptions to confuse my players. I'll keep them up to date on what the dice said. But I've little interest in telling a story composed entirely of "He missed you! He missed you again! He hit you!"

[GoldenAge]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

Sorry, I didn't watch the clip, but if its the one I think it is then those goons (despite perhaps having low DCVs) were protecting a high official. As such, I would assume that they'd have a few Combat Skill Lvls and training. The ultimate balance between a high DCV hero and a bunch of goons is teamwork.

 

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MULTIPLE ATTACKERS

This optional rule refl ects the fact that when there are a lot of attackers fighting a single defender, it’s harder for the defender to evade their attacks. To gain a Multiple Attacker Bonus, the attackers must Coordinate their attacks (see Coordinated Attacks, above). If the attackers successfully Coordinate, the defender suffers a -1 DCV for every attacker after the first, down to a minimum of ½ DCV. The attackers can fight at Range, HTH, or a combination of both. The DCV penalty applies only against those opponents who Coordinate their attacks; the character’s DCV against other attacks is determined normally. A character who has the Skill Defense Maneuver (page 57) can avoid theeff ects of Multiple Attackers.

 

A character attacked by Multiple Attackers can choose to ignore some of them to concentrate on a more dangerous opponent. In this case he gets his full DCV against the single opponent, but is ½ DCV against all the other Multiple Attackers.

 

Characters with Mental Powers may obtain a Multiple Attackers Bonus for ECV when using any Mental Power with which they can Coordinate (see above).

 

Multiple Attackers is an optional rule. It can be particularly inappropriate for a martial arts campaign or one based on the swashbuckling exploits of the Three Musketeers, since generally such characters are supposed to be able to take on large numbers of less skilled opponents and defeat them without getting hurt.

 

Example: Five VIPER agents attack Nighthawk. Because they find Nighthawk almost impossible to hit, they decide to try for a Multiple Attacker Bonus. (This is made simpler because all VIPER agents have DEX 14 and SPD 3.) On Segment 4, they Coordinate their attacks (this is easy for them because they’ve all trained together and purchased the Teamwork Skill) and attack as one. Nighthawk receives a -4 to his DCV, and will probably be hit.

 

-------

 

Back on track...

 

In my games I try to emphasize the Color/Caveat technique of play.

 

Color (Player):

"Corona sweeps into the water-covered lobby, forcing a roster tail of white foam to arc upward as the downpour from the fire extinguishers sizzles off his blue marbled cocoon of force. With a flick of his hand the same force covering him lashes out splashing the heavy desks and chairs to the glass walls on each side and he says "Today, your evil comes to an end Panzermensch. The New Reich has fallen and you will soon join their ranks as prisoners of war!" Suddenly Corona's eyes glow from blue to white hot! Echoing his ocular outburst the blue energy ever-present around him leaps toward his staunch adversary...."

 

Caveat (Player quickly interprets the maneuver in game terms):

"Um... Activate FF, Half Move, Casual TK Str to move desks, Soliloquy, Multi Attack: Flash from eyes and Energy Blast!"

 

GM... Sweet! ROLL!!!!!!

 

I'll allow the color of cracking glass and environmental cosmetics to be invented by the player, especially if it doesn't truly affect the actual structural integrity of said material. I may also interpret a successful block as a near miss (due to DCV bonus). It's all about the story.

 

We (the GM and Players) are working together to create an epic moment! Luckily, I believe Hero allows us to run a play-by-play combat that includes all the cinematic devices necessary to later be combined into an incredible visual without fudging what actually happened.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

I'm much more interested in telling the sort of story the Players want to tell than setting in stone how we describe the results of a roll of the dice.

 

If one character's schtick is being nearly invulnerable, then I'm going to help tell that story. When a bad guy misses Mr. Invulnerable, I might describe it as a hit. A hit that Mr. Invulnerable barely notices. Hooray!

 

If one character's schtick is being able to take a licking and keep on ticking, then I'm going to help tell that story. When a bad guy misses Timex, I might describe it as a hit. A hit that staggers Timex for a moment before he shakes it off and returns his steely glare back to the man who struck him.

 

If one character's schtick is being able to dodge pretty much anything in Dodge, then I'm going to help tell that story. When a bad guy misses Dodgy by just a tad, I might describe it as missing by a mile.

 

Etc.

 

At no time will I allow the descriptions to confuse my players. I'll keep them up to date on what the dice said. But I've little interest in telling a story composed entirely of "He missed you! He missed you again! He hit you!"

 

...and if that was what I would be advocating, then I would be a bad Sean. As a player I rely on GM description for clues. If my best shot apparently bounces off then I'm going to assume that is an ineffective attack and try something else. If I roll a 7 to hit and miss 'by a mile' then I'm going to assume that I really have no chance to hit at all, and so go looking for some sort of AoE.

 

You can TELL the players: He blocks - it looks like this...but that seems very sterile. I prefer a description that gives me a decent chance to infer what has happened. Mr Invulnerable blocking, for instance, might turn his shoulder into the blow and catch the blow on his mighty biceps, whereas Mr Dodgy, blocking an attack would twist at the last moment and reach out, barely touching his opponent, but just enough to ensure a miss.

 

Flavour preserved, clearly a block, job done.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

And those are already in place.

 

The limit is not in the specific description itself but rather its consistent future use by that character in that game.

 

If a player wants to define his character's Block as "Taking it on the Chin" then EVERY time that character uses the Block maneuver it looks like that. That's the 'default' SFX for that maneuver for that character. However, the SFX does not remove any other requirements for using the maneuver (being free to move hands and/or legs). The character might just need to put his fists on his hips. But again, it's just whatever the player defines.

 

Having consistent sfx helps a bit (although I'm not sure that the rules require it) but still causes potential problems: someone paralysed whith hands on hips might justifyable claim to still be able to block. Moreover, whilst a barbarian hero might be able to justify blocking a punch with his chin, when he does the same thing against a battleaxe it is going to look mighty odd.

 

It is just a bugbear of mine though - ignore me, I'll go away eventually

[Utech]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

As a player I rely on GM description for clues.

I can understand that -- though I don't feel the same way.

 

I don't much care for clues when it comes to die rolls in combat. I prefer player-schtick-specific descriptive language that lets the characters shine.

 

And then -- if it's at all important -- I dispel all mystery by making it quite clear what just happened. I have no problem letting my players know what a bad guy's DCV is, that he just Blocked an attack, and so on and so forth.

 

Part of the understanding at the gaming table is that I won't unfairly use what I know about the PCs; and that the players won't unfairly use what they know about the NPCs.

 

I apologize if anything I've written here comes across as insulting. I assure you that's not my intent.

[Markdoc]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

The more I think about this' date=' the less clear it gets, AND the more obvious it becomes that my own lack of combat experience of any kind leaves me with nothing to work with. I've never been shot at, and never fired a shot at a human being. I don't remember anyone actually trying to hit me other than two occasions, both as a kid.[/quote']

 

I got in plenty of fights as a kid and as a teenager - some serious enough that teeth were lost:( and have studied martial arts. It's not hard to hit someone close, though it is slightly harder to hit them hard enough and in the right place that it hurts. For HTH combat, the current system seems pretty reasonable with regard to realism.

 

I've also done a reasonable amount of shooting (Rifles and assault rifles. Oddly, I've never fired a pistol) plus seen armed soldiers shooting demonstrators. And I've seen plenty of newsreel footage of people shooting at each other from what looks like ridiculously short range - and talked with my Dad (who finished up as an army marksman with literally years of combat experience). I agree completely that most people totally over-rate the ability of shooters to hit targets at range.

 

There's two aspects. One, it takes some training to hit targets at range at all. If you haven't tried it, it's harder than you'd think. Two, under stress, people's marksmanship goes completely to hell. Out hunting for wild boar, I've seen guys who could regularly centre-hit the target on a 300 yard range, miss a man-sized target at 30 feet. And I've done the same In real life, I've watched two squads of soldiers rapid fire AK47s into a crowded street (maybe 50 people) from stone -throwing distance .. maybe 60 feet? You'd think they couldn't miss. They killed one guy and wounded maybe 3-4 others.

 

So if you want more "realistic combat" I'd leave the OCV/DCV thing alone, double the penalty on range increments and simply add in "stress factor". The way I'd do that is that OCV and range PSLs function normally out of combat (you'll want to buy more if you regularly engage in ranged combat) but that in stress situations, you need to make an EGO roll at -3 to be able to concentrate enough to use them. That seperates out the relatively rare "cool head" who can ignore anything incoming and concentrate on hitting what he's shooting at and seperates a real marksman (someone with lots of ranged CSLs) from the ordinary Joe.

 

Of course having said that, I don't do that: as Hugh said, I don't actually want "realistic combat".

 

cheers, Mark

[BNakagawa]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

That seems entirely reasonable.

 

I've long believed in a proficiency: combat.

 

Some people operate fine under stressful conditions. Some go all to pieces.

 

Also, you know that optional combat maneuver that lets people act quicker (on the dex chart) in exchange for CV? That sounds like a pretty good explaination on how people can spray dozens of bullets without hitting anything.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

In my games I try to emphasize the Color/Caveat technique of play.

 

Color (Player):

"Corona sweeps into the water-covered lobby, forcing a roster tail of white foam to arc upward as the downpour from the fire extinguishers sizzles off his blue marbled cocoon of force. With a flick of his hand the same force covering him lashes out splashing the heavy desks and chairs to the glass walls on each side and he says "Today, your evil comes to an end Panzermensch. The New Reich has fallen and you will soon join their ranks as prisoners of war!" Suddenly Corona's eyes glow from blue to white hot! Echoing his ocular outburst the blue energy ever-present around him leaps toward his staunch adversary...."

 

Caveat (Player quickly interprets the maneuver in game terms):

"Um... Activate FF, Half Move, Casual TK Str to move desks, Soliloquy, Multi Attack: Flash from eyes and Energy Blast!"

 

GM... Sweet! ROLL!!!!!!

 

I'll allow the color of cracking glass and environmental cosmetics to be invented by the player, especially if it doesn't truly affect the actual structural integrity of said material. I may also interpret a successful block as a near miss (due to DCV bonus). It's all about the story.

 

We (the GM and Players) are working together to create an epic moment! Luckily, I believe Hero allows us to run a play-by-play combat that includes all the cinematic devices necessary to later be combined into an incredible visual without fudging what actually happened.

Great! The best kind of GM! I love color in a game.

 

Repped.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

....................

I apologize if anything I've written here comes across as insulting. I assure you that's not my intent.

 

 

I did not think for a moment that any offence was meant and certainly none was taken

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

............................ In real life, I've watched two squads of soldiers rapid fire AK47s into a crowded street (maybe 50 people) from stone -throwing distance .. maybe 60 feet? You'd think they couldn't miss. They killed one guy and wounded maybe 3-4 others.

 

................

 

 

1. You have led a scary life

 

2. OTOH someone can be cleaning a gun in the front room, and it goes off, the bullet passes through a stud wall and kills their kid. Bullets are RANDOM.

[archermoo]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

1. You have led a scary life

 

2. OTOH someone can be cleaning a gun in the front room, and it goes off, the bullet passes through a stud wall and kills their kid. Bullets are RANDOM.

 

It COULD happen. Of course you could also be sitting in your room and be struck by lightning through your open window. Lots of things are, or at least seem to be, random.

[nexus]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

In a sense it boils down to how do you envision DCV. Is it the "cinematic ability of important characters to not be hit even when they should." or a representation of the character's defensive abilities (whatever form they may take) in play". The DCV is tied to an characteristic and skills seems to lean more towards the latter which causes some disconnect with some because in some cases is conflicts with popular perception of "reality"

 

But Hero System isn't a realism simulator in the first place but saying that might not soothe over the issue with some players. I'm generally fine with it except for very gritty settings/games but arguably Hero isn't the game for those.

[Markdoc]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

1. You have led a scary life

 

Not really - I posted to the Hero boards that day - when the shooting moved closer I went into my house and as I commented at the time, it always sounds more exciting than it actually is. Edit: it might be a deal more exciting if they were actually shooting at ME, but they weren't. We were on a hillside above and slightly to the side of the motorway interchange where this whole thing happened: our chance of taking a random richochet were pretty close to nil. It wasn't until the crowd spilled off the road that the odds of a misdirected bullet went up and we got the heck out of there.

 

2. OTOH someone can be cleaning a gun in the front room' date=' and it goes off, the bullet passes through a stud wall and kills their kid. Bullets are RANDOM.[/quote']

 

Yep. My dad had a story from when his battalion was being shipped to Egypt in WW2. Some guy was cleaning his bren gun below decks and accidentally fired it. They have a fairly powerful forward pull and as a raw-ish recruit he froze up on the trigger. He emptied a full mag of .303 ammo through several walls, in a ship packed with soldiers ..... and didn't hit anyone.

 

Bullets really are random, which is why so many soldiers uses the spray and pray approach: throw enough bullets in the right direction and you'll probably hit somebody.

 

cheers, Mark

[casualplayer]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

When the bullets start flying everybody sane puts their levels into DCV.

 

I've considered a quick-and-easy fix to the Undercosted DEX argument would be for DEX to only provide 1 pt of DCV/3 pts, and you could voluntarily lower your DCV to increase OCV.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

I

On the actual thread topic: I STRONGLY dislike hits that aren't really hits and misses that aren't really misses. If I'm GMing, a successful attack roll indicates an attack that connects, and an unsuccessful attack roll indicates an attack that didn't touch the target. Grazes and attacks that don't penetrate the targets defenses are represented by . . . low damage rolls. It's possible that some attacks might do minor damage or cosmetic damage if they miss by one. The old "bullet holes in your clothes" thing, you know?

 

If I'm just a player, I still picture my attack results that way, and it bugs me if the GM does otherwise.

 

 

I agree and don't find it limiting at all but an excellent framework to know whats going on in the action and a springboard for lots of very cool descriptions, bits and moments.

[nexus]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

A question for those that feel descriptions should match the mechanics are precisely as possible: Do you allow missed HTH combat rolls to be described as successful parries/counters?

[Guest steamteck]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

A question for those that feel descriptions should match the mechanics are precisely as possible: Do you allow missed HTH combat rolls to be described as successful parries/counters?

 

 

Most definitely because that's how I picture them myself. The interaction between OCV and DCV seems like an active defense I.E parry, block dodge ( with little b and d) to me.

[BNakagawa]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

A question for those that feel descriptions should match the mechanics are precisely as possible: Do you allow missed HTH combat rolls to be described as successful parries/counters?

 

I prefer that this not be done. It gives the misleading impression that the missed target is in block mode, and that subsequent melee attacks might also be blocked/parried, when it is a simple case of a botched attack.

[archermoo]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

I prefer that this not be done. It gives the misleading impression that the missed target is in block mode' date=' and that subsequent melee attacks might also be blocked/parried, when it is a simple case of a botched attack.[/quote']

 

As long as it is clear what happened mechanically I don't see there being a problem.

[Acme]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

I usually let the dice inform the description. If an attack hits DCV-1 I would say something like, "You feel the wind from his punch," or "You grab for it, but just end up with a handful of fur." If the attack misses by a lot, usually something environmental interferes, hence "Powerman's last missed punch broke up the sidewalk more than you thought," or "The bandit, still reeling from your spell, fires his crossbow too hastily."

 

As far as "Chin Blocks" go, if they are not already bought as Invisible (as per Missile Deflection in "The Ultimate Brick") then it's obvious that the maneuver was a Block, and cannot be used while Entangled. (If you like, you can say the Chin Block requires effort to "Psych Up" or shift stance)

[Vulcan]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

I think this is a good thread to bring this up. Our group has been using Hero System/Champions for a little while now and overall we like it. We came to it from Storyteller, Cyberpunk 2020 and similar games. But there are two people that are having a big issue with one part of the system: Defensive Combat Value. They don't feel it's realistic or even fits most cinematic battles especially when guns come into play. I'm not sure how to explain or defend it really.

 

For instance, they complain that this scene

 

 

From V for Vendetta couldn't happen in Hero since if V was as agile as he seemed he'd just dodge all the bullets.

 

He likely could have. He chose to stand there and take it because he wanted to die.

[Vulcan]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

That seems entirely reasonable.

 

I've long believed in a proficiency: combat.

 

Some people operate fine under stressful conditions. Some go all to pieces.

 

If we add proficiency: combat as a skill in the game, then all we've done is add another line to 99% of all characters, since few players want to play the character who goes to pieces. (I've played one character I wouldn't give it to. But then, Raoul is the exception to many rules:D.)

 

This is about cinematic realism, not real realism. Slight difference.