Components and Failed Spells

[tomasina]

It has been a while since I have posed a question... which is a good sign as to our adoption of the Hero System into our gaming sessions.

 

I have two questions though that have arisen, and that I am hoping for some insight from all of you.

 

1 - One of our casters uses rune magic from the Grimoire II and thus all of this spells use components consisting of a rune painted or carved. My question is what happens to the component if the Power skill roll (Rune Magic in this case) fails? Is the component lost, resulting in the caster needed to create a new rune, or can he simply try to cast again on his next phase? Do they also lose the END cost for the spell if it fails?

 

2 - We come from a DND background... which, I am sure, is resulting in this question. In DND casters have a limited number of spells they can cast a day... but in Heroes (using the Turakian age book) this is not the case. It seems strange to me that my casters can pick an incredibly hard spell and just keep trying to cast it (ecspecially if it is a non-battle spell) until it succeeds since they lose nothing by doing so. I am just not used to casters having an endless supply of spells... and am wondering how you balance this... or if any balance is even needed.

 

Thanks,

 

Tomasina

[mayapuppies]

Re: Components and Failed Spells

 

1 - One of our casters uses rune magic from the Grimoire II and thus all of this spells use components consisting of a rune painted or carved. My question is what happens to the component if the Power skill roll (Rune Magic in this case) fails? Is the component lost' date=' resulting in the caster needed to create a new rune, or can he simply try to cast again on his next phase? Do they also lose the END cost for the spell if it fails?[/quote']

Completely up to you.

 

2 - We come from a DND background... which, I am sure, is resulting in this question. In DND casters have a limited number of spells they can cast a day... but in Heroes (using the Turakian age book) this is not the case. It seems strange to me that my casters can pick an incredibly hard spell and just keep trying to cast it (ecspecially if it is a non-battle spell) until it succeeds since they lose nothing by doing so. I am just not used to casters having an endless supply of spells... and am wondering how you balance this... or if any balance is even needed.

 

This is usually balanced by the expenditure of Endurance on the spells. If you don't wish to track END you can always add the Charges limitation to the spells.

[Midas]

Re: Components and Failed Spells

 

1 - One of our casters uses rune magic from the Grimoire II and thus all of this spells use components consisting of a rune painted or carved. My question is what happens to the component if the Power skill roll (Rune Magic in this case) fails? Is the component lost, resulting in the caster needed to create a new rune, or can he simply try to cast again on his next phase? Do they also lose the END cost for the spell if it fails?

 

 

The answer, as in all HERO questions is "It depends."

 

The second question, END costs, depends on modifiers. If you are using END, and you haven't bought it off (reduced END), or replaced it (charges) then yes, it costs END.

 

The other question deals with the "expendable" modifier. You may compare the runes to an archer's bow, or to his arrows. It makes no more sense to require your runecaster to re enchant his rune stones than it does for an archer to get a new bow after every arrow fired. OTOH (it depends, remember ) if you compare them to the archer's arrows, then re enchanting the stones after a use makes much more sense. Note that as long as the runecaster didn't take the Never Recovers or Independent modifiers, re enchanting the rune stones will only cost him time, not experience.

 

Midas

[tomasina]

Re: Components and Failed Spells

 

This is usually balanced by the expenditure of Endurance on the spells. If you don't wish to track END you can always add the Charges limitation to the spells.

 

We do track END... but for spells that take place out of battle, it seems as though END is somewhat pointless since they can just take a 'breather' for a round or two and get all their END back. In battle, it becomes a bit more of a balancing act... but for enchantment type effects that take place before battle... or destruction spells that take place out of battle... it seems that there is no limit to the casting due to quick regeneration of END.

 

I can see the benefit of having charges on spells... but I am hesitant to apply this yet, as I wonder if this concern is just due to my DND background. Do most players stick with the END limitations?

 

Thanks,

 

Tomasina

[teh bunneh]

Re: Components and Failed Spells

 

In situations where time is not a factor and there's no danger to life and limb if they fail the spell, I generally don't make spellcasters in my games make rolls. They can give themselves enormous bonuses by taking Extra Time, using superior materials, having another spellcaster assist them, and the like. So their normal (say) 13- roll can easily become an 18- roll.

 

Now, if they're trying to cast a spell where failure means something bad will happen (accidentally summon a demon, for instance), or if time is of the essence, then I make them roll.

 

(I pretty much do the same thing with some other types of rolls, too, depending on the situation. If a thief needs to climb to the top of a wall, but he's got all afternoon and has access to a ladder, I just let him do it without a Climbing roll).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Components and Failed Spells

 

Well, for starters, you have to understand and realize that there is no such thing as a HERO System "Magic System". Different published settings present one or more systems that are used in that setting by default, but you don't have to use them. Fantasy HERO presents 12 sample systems alone, and others have presented yet more. I offer somewhere over 10 distinct systems and over twenty counting major variants on my site myself.

 

You should pick or design a system that you are comfortable with and that fits your campaign the way you like to run it. In addition to being well able to model unique and unusual Magic Systems, the HERO System is also very capable of approximating the systems of other games. I provide a pretty close approximation of the magic systems from AD&D 2e, D&D 3e, WHFRPG 1e and WHFRPG 2e on my site, for instance. If you like the D&D style of magic, you should check out the Vancian Magic System on my site, which models both prepared and spontaneous versions as well as a more HERO-centric hybrid I call "Gestalt".

 

END costing is ok too; it all just comes down to feel and fit. You can also have many completely different and competing systems in the same setting; you don't have to limit yourself to just one system. My San'Dora setting was built around the intent of hosting as many different things as possible, for instance; all of the Magic Systems and the Psionic System presented on my High Fantasy site were available to one or more types of characters within the setting. The PC group saw, over its timeframe, characters using Aeldenaren, Elementalism (Spontaneous variant), Totemic Shamanism, Runecrafting, Sortilege (Spontaneous variant), Dominine (two different patrons), and Stahyrca (a Spellweaving variant); NPC's encountered extended this further to Sorcery, Wizardry, Arcanis Magnicus, Magecraft, Thanomancy, more denominations of Dominine, Animine, Derwydda, Esowyc, various flavors of Aeldenaren, and Psionics; there were also other NPC's using Metieran, Metruvius, Piedragemas, Loremastery, and the other flavors of Adeptology but the PC's never bumped into them.

 

{shrugs}

 

If RPG's were martial arts, the HERO System would be Jeet Kune Do -- the way of no way.

[Markdoc]

Re: Components and Failed Spells

 

Also a useful general rule is that if you fail a skill roll, you can't try it again until you get some sort of a bonus to the skill. Now you can get a bonus simply by taking extra time, but "extra time" steps up

 

So if your caster fails once, he can try again taking a full phase and if he fails again - in a turn. If he fails a third time, he can try again - but it'll take him a minute, then again - in 5 minutes (and so on). Alternatively, he can try to get a bonus another way (help from another caster, using a complementary skill, whatever). But he shouldn't be allowed to try every phase without penalty until he succeeds.

 

Basically if it fails the first time - ur doin it wrong - try another way.

 

cheers, Mark

[Nolgroth]

Re: Components and Failed Spells

 

I think the first question has been answered enough. As to the second, Side Effects are also an issue. If the Side Effect does damage to the caster, he should be pretty loathe to cast it repeatedly. If the spell has a Side Effect that causes danger to the community, then he may just get lynched after a few mishaps.

 

Long Term Endurance rules should apply as well. Eventually, the spell caster is going to wear himself down. That is an appropriate time for a Hunted to make an appearance.

 

What does the spell(s) do? If they create Light or allow the character to scribble notes in his spell book from across the room, who cares. If they conjure armor or a weapon, they are useless between combats. If they create piles of gold permanently, then he has just gained a floating hunted. The only problems I can see are Divination spells. I would seriously apply all sorts of Limitations, from Charges to Extra-Time to Increased END cost to discourage frivolous use of those kinds of spells. Heck, I'd even throw on a Side Effect that builds slowly into something bad.

 

If you are not using rules to discourage repeated casting, then you pretty much have given it your blessing. Don't get me wrong, you should play to your own taste. I'm not condemning anything. Just saying that there are plenty of ways to discourage undue spell casting.

 

And I haven't even gotten to the non-rules methods like potential apprentices bugging the magician, peasants pleading for a blessing to their crops, messages from the local lord asking for help deciphering some pointless enigma. Maybe even thieves trying to break in for some extra loot. A magic sending from a rival mage? That should occupy the magician's time nicely. And then he has to come up with some sort of counter sending just to show the rival mage he means business.

 

Edit: Oh and forgot about spell research. That takes time too. If he wants to create his own spells, he has to do some research. How much time is up to you. I would probably say 1 hour for every Active Point in the new spell. With appropriate rest and eating periods, figure he can research a 40 AP spell in about four days. Just a suggestion. Keep the mage busy so he doesn't find ways to keep busy. The same concept also goes towards making potions. Maybe excess magical energy spoils the soup. So he casts his random spell and the potion brewing in the lab explodes.

 

And I do think your D&D background is coloring your perceptions a bit.

[tomasina]

Re: Components and Failed Spells

 

Thanks for all the info... it was extremely helpful.

 

I have a follow-up clarification based on one of the responses to my question.

 

I remember reading somewhere that if you fail a skill roll, you can normally not try it again without taking some sort of a bonus to it... which is normally done by moving up the time chart.

 

Does this apply to casting spells in combat? If a caster fails his power skill roll, can he not cast that spell again unless he moved one category up in the time chart, or find some other way to provide a bonus?

 

Thanks as always,

 

Tom

[Fenixcrest]

Re: Components and Failed Spells

 

Thanks for all the info... it was extremely helpful.

 

I have a follow-up clarification based on one of the responses to my question.

 

I remember reading somewhere that if you fail a skill roll, you can normally not try it again without taking some sort of a bonus to it... which is normally done by moving up the time chart.

 

Does this apply to casting spells in combat? If a caster fails his power skill roll, can he not cast that spell again unless he moved one category up in the time chart, or find some other way to provide a bonus?

 

Thanks as always,

 

Tom

 

I don't have my book on me, so I'm not sure what the actual ruling is. I know that in the past, though, I've allowed casters to simply keep trying the skill roll in subsequent phases, spending END each time, with the SFX being that the character is just taking a highly unusual amount of time to get the spell to fire off.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Components and Failed Spells

 

Thanks for all the info... it was extremely helpful.

 

I have a follow-up clarification based on one of the responses to my question.

 

I remember reading somewhere that if you fail a skill roll, you can normally not try it again without taking some sort of a bonus to it... which is normally done by moving up the time chart.

 

Does this apply to casting spells in combat? If a caster fails his power skill roll, can he not cast that spell again unless he moved one category up in the time chart, or find some other way to provide a bonus?

 

Thanks as always,

 

Tom

 

You could rule that if you like, but considering that most Spells define their own activation time (using Extra Time), and that most Spells are designed to be done in COMBAT TIME, I wouldn't do it for most Magic Systems.

 

The purpose of an RSR Lim is threefold:

 

1) Make spell casting less than 100% reliable

2) Make more uber spells harder to cast (based on AP penalties), thus hampering their overall impact on the campaign

3) Indicate that the ability to cast Spells is a learnable, honeable skill whereby different practitioners can distinguish themselves by being more skilled in addition to knowing more or "better" spells than one another

 

The third is more of a character design element, the second is more of a campaign / tone element, and the first is more of a run time element. Of the three, the first is the most immediately and frequently felt effect of RSR.

 

You as the GM need to decide how severe you want the lack of reliability to be; you can drive this by several factors ranging from imposed skill maximas or imposition of circumstantial penalties, or in this case making a failed roll not only fail the current casting but also put the Spell in a penalty box so to speak. The more "strong" you make the RSR limit, the weaker you make the Magic System(s) that use it and if you cripple it too much no one will want to use that system. So...you have to use a light hand....