EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

[SteveZilla]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

And talk about thread-theft.

 

Sorry. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

I'd also suggest changing the prohibition on EC's to read as follows-

"Powers that are innately Always On may not be placed in Power Frameworks".

 

I guess it really comes down to what is the purpose of an Elemental Control. Is it intended to reward more "cohesive" character concepts regardless of the powers involved, or is it intended to reward more "cohesive" character concepts within certain bounds?

 

If the latter, what are those bounds and what are the reasons for them?

[incrdbil]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

What difference does it make?

 

After all, any sane GM is going to disallow it any way. Any non-sane one, well... isn't going to be reading this?

 

And talk about thread-theft.

 

Well, its not too bad of a thread thft..I think these heinous abuises at least shares the spiriy of many EC abuses, where the framework is nothing but a random collection of powers crammed together and layered with an icing of an alleged common special effect to save points.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

IMO that isn't a good guideline (using published supliments). There are *many* By-the-Book rules violations built into published characters. And as far as I can tell' date=' absolutely no acknowledgment that they would otherwise need GM's approval.[/quote']

 

At least in his earlier 5E publications, like some of the villains in Conquerors, Killers, And Crooks, Steve Long always pointed out when one of his character designs bent the default rules, and his reason for doing so in that case. It may be that editorial scrupulousness on that front has slipped more recently.

 

BTW, I think we scared off the OP.

[Silbeg]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

Well' date=' its not too bad of a thread thft..I think these heinous abuises at least shares the spiriy of many EC abuses, where the framework is nothing but a random collection of powers crammed together and layered with an icing of an alleged common special effect to save points.[/quote']

not disagreeing with you there...

 

Just was noting, and teasing all of us "offenders".

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

Which is why I HATE NND's that are resisted by mechanics rather than SFX. Two characters' date=' built the same, except one has "Armor, Visible: Stony Skin" while the other has "FF, 0 END, Persistent: Stony Skin"... same exact "ability", but one will stop NND's against FF's, the other won't. Makes no sense![/quote']

 

I, personally, would have told the second person that his power is, in fact, Armor.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

yes,

 

I'm way late on this one:

 

sorry; haven't been this way in a while

 

 

I just wanted to support the original poster. We've been playing EC's the same way since 2e, and frankly, for all the hypotheticals and f'rinstances and possibles that can be listed ad nauseum,

 

it has totally failed to be a balance issue for us.

 

Like anything else, use what works for you and yours

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

Of course' date=' you then run into all-protective fx man. My magic armor radiates a field of force..therefore NND's vs Magic, armor, or force field are nullified by it.[/quote']

 

+X DC, only vs Magic

 

The best counter to an abusive construct is often a similarly abusive construct. In other words, to show the player that the advantage they believe they are achieving WILL be countered in the name of game balance, so they will not be "ahead" on the power curve by being abusive.

 

I find a very effective means of dealing with abusive power constructs is to discuss them with the group, and indicate that I'm OK if we allow it or disallow it. If it is allowed, then rest assured the NPC's will also use it. If it's not allowed, that also applies to everyone.

[SteveZilla]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

I find a very effective means of dealing with abusive power constructs is to discuss them with the group' date=' and indicate that I'm OK if we allow it or disallow it. If it is allowed, then rest assured the NPC's will also use it. If it's not allowed, that also applies to everyone.[/quote']

 

That is a good idea. I find that if every player is given full knowledge of every PC's character sheet it weeds out abusive builds. And if it's just an efficient build they didn't think of, they have learned more about character construction. Doing this also serves to correct when someone is honestly mistaken about a book rule.

[incrdbil]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

+X DC, only vs Magic

 

 

I find a very effective means of dealing with abusive power constructs is to discuss them with the group, and indicate that I'm OK if we allow it or disallow it. If it is allowed, then rest assured the NPC's will also use it. If it's not allowed, that also applies to everyone.

 

 

The problem coems when you have the abusive power construct wielder on a team with those who don't. I've dealth with it in the form of trying to keep one character from outshining the others, or being such a hard target that the attacks that can harm that PC absolutely flatten the others. That's why I try to keep a sort of balanced among the character's in terms of the relative efficiency of their builds, while still trying to allow for the natural specialization of roles from primary combat to those who are more supporting.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

The problem coems when you have the abusive power construct wielder on a team with those who don't. I've dealth with it in the form of trying to keep one character from outshining the others' date=' or being such a hard target that the attacks that can harm that PC absolutely flatten the others. That's why I try to keep a sort of balanced among the character's in terms of the relative efficiency of their builds, while still trying to allow for the natural specialization of roles from primary combat to those who are more supporting.[/quote']

 

We had a player at one time who insisted his character could "only" be effective with something like a 30 DEX and 30 defenses. That would be in a game where one other character had a 35 DEX, and I think one had PD 35/ED 30. Discussions with the player were futile.

 

So it became a balance. What can we give this villain so he is effective against PushTheLimit Man, but does not crush the other characters? The answer was commonly a variant of one MP slot that allows the character to do typical DC's while obviating defenses. For example, a 90 point MP with one slot that had 12d6 AoE 1 hex, 2x END, and other slots that had, say, 12d6, 0 END, or similar constructs. He could hit that high DCV with normal damage, but he only used it when he had to due to the END costs. The Brick might have a physical Damage Aura limited to the DC's used against him in HTH since the problem character was a martial artist.

 

Not an ideal solution, but it got the point across, kept things balanced until the point got across and ultimately demonstrated to the player that the game would be balanced even if his character wasn't.

[Silbeg]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

We had a player at one time who insisted his character could "only" be effective with something like a 30 DEX and 30 defenses. That would be in a game where one other character had a 35 DEX, and I think one had PD 35/ED 30. Discussions with the player were futile.

 

So it became a balance. What can we give this villain so he is effective against PushTheLimit Man, but does not crush the other characters?

 

What I would do (assuming I even allowed it) would be to treat the character as if he had a reputation as the most powerful character on the team (which he very well may be). Then, since villains are not all idiots, that character would see an inordinate amount coordinated attacks against him, and stuff like that. He would be the primary target of mentalists (say, does the big oaf have a high EDCV, Ego, and Mental DEF?)... the group will really like him when he is Mind Controlled to attack them whenever he turns the corner.

 

I have dealt with players like this in my game... but instead of allowing the character in, I have had to deal with the continual whining.

 

Other things you can do to annoy this sort of character is put him up against a martial artist that uses a staff (with 1" stretching) in order to perform a Legsweep maneuver outside of HtH range. Or stuff like that.

[SteveZilla]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

We had a player at one time who insisted his character could "only" be effective with something like a 30 DEX and 30 defenses. That would be in a game where one other character had a 35 DEX' date=' and I think one had PD 35/ED 30. Discussions with the player were futile.[/quote']

 

Use attacks that avoid these strong points. High DCV? AoE, Presence Attacks, and Mental Attacks are called for. High PD & ED? Presence Attacks, Mental Attacks, Sensory Attacks, Entangles, and Adjustment Attacks.

 

An invisible attacker that uses AoE flash attacks and AoE entangles can be a wonderful thing...

[brionl]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

Use attacks that avoid these strong points. High DCV? AoE, Presence Attacks, and Mental Attacks are called for. High PD & ED? Presence Attacks, Mental Attacks, Sensory Attacks, Entangles, and Adjustment Attacks.

 

An invisible attacker that uses AoE flash attacks and AoE entangles can be a wonderful thing...

 

I dunno. This kind of thing often leads to more escalation on the character. If he's spending that much on defenses, he has to be lacking in offense or something else. Make enemies that he can't do anything against, rather than enemies that specifically target his weaknesses.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

We had a player at one time who insisted his character could "only" be effective with something like a 30 DEX and 30 defenses. That would be in a game where one other character had a 35 DEX, and I think one had PD 35/ED 30. Discussions with the player were futile.

 

So it became a balance. What can we give this villain so he is effective against PushTheLimit Man, but does not crush the other characters? The answer was commonly a variant of one MP slot that allows the character to do typical DC's while obviating defenses. For example, a 90 point MP with one slot that had 12d6 AoE 1 hex, 2x END, and other slots that had, say, 12d6, 0 END, or similar constructs. He could hit that high DCV with normal damage, but he only used it when he had to due to the END costs. The Brick might have a physical Damage Aura limited to the DC's used against him in HTH since the problem character was a martial artist.

 

Not an ideal solution, but it got the point across, kept things balanced until the point got across and ultimately demonstrated to the player that the game would be balanced even if his character wasn't.

 

 

There is a word that would cover all of this: NO. I'm sorry, but I would expect some consideration from a player. The GM does a lot of heavy lifting to set up a game. The least a player can do is to not be a dick. When you have to build NPCs and tweak scenarios just to deal with one player's character, his character does not fit the game.

[Alibear]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

I dunno. This kind of thing often leads to more escalation on the character. If he's spending that much on defenses' date=' he has to be lacking in offense or something else. Make enemies that he can't do anything against, rather than enemies that specifically target his weaknesses.[/quote']

 

 

 

More likely to be lacking in character defining extras, background skills and the like imho.

 

NO is the way to go.

[JmOz]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

More likely to be lacking in character defining extras, background skills and the like imho.

 

NO is the way to go.

 

I have to admit that if I see a character who has taken alot of background skills I am more forgiving of some questionable limitations

[SteveZilla]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

I have to admit that if I see a character who has taken alot of background skills I am more forgiving of some questionable limitations

 

So you'll take the cheese if there are some crackers to go with it?

[Alibear]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

So you'll take the cheese if there are some crackers to go with it?

 

And a glass of vintage port.

[SteveZilla]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

"Vintage port" == "Antique dock"?

[jtelson]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

"Vintage port" == "Antique dock" == "Hoary Slip"?

[JmOz]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

So you'll take the cheese if there are some crackers to go with it?

 

I guess you could say it that way. The truth is that I have no problem with munchkinism if it will help make the character more interesting, opposed to walking mounds of "I win, you loose".

[the fox]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

Yeah, I built 4th edition battlesuits with ALL the Characteristics and ALL the Powers in a couple of EC's; a Main Powers and 'Mega-Mini' min-maxed EC for up to 500 Active Points of Powers!, most of which were 0 END or reduced!

Grab yourself a Multi-power, you'll need it! and 1 EC now I presume, if you want to build a 650 pt. character for 350 pts! Thats nearly double all your points!

I also had no DEX, SPD, Def! limits till I found that 1 page,buried in the book, also with Maximum Skill Rolls (Major 4th ed. Broken Rules) but kept STR, Attacks to 60 AP------

All Characterics, Powers, Skill Levels, Attacks and Defenses should be limited by Total Power Points Max DEX,PD,ED SPD Range Max Skill Level Damage Class Running/Flight

330-359 20-39[1/10 pts] 4-7 +6 15d6/22 1/2d6 150 pts.or

360-389 21-42 4-8 +6 16d6/24d6!!! 160 pts.more?

600-629 33-66 6-12 +10 24d6/ 36d6!!! 240 pts.

Skill Levels cannot overlap to exceed Max Level(+6 Overall means you can't buy any more Combat Skill Levels)Agents limited to +1,2 to +5 30,90 to 329 pt. 'Agents'

[the fox]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

Yeah, I built 4th edition battlesuits with ALL the Characteristics and ALL the Powers in a couple of EC's; a Main Powers and 'Mega-Mini' min-maxed EC for up to 500 Active Points of Powers!, most of which were 0 END or reduced!

Grab yourself a Multi-power, you'll need it! and 1 EC now I presume, if you want to build a 650 pt. character for 350 pts! Thats nearly double all your points!

I also had no DEX, SPD, Def! limits till I found this 1 page, buried in the book!, also w/ Max Skill Rolls (Major 4th ed. Broken Rules!).Full Life Support and Immortality please!

[Mr Reasonable]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

I am inclined to wonder why ECs cannot have powers that do not inherently cost END too, given that the decision to charge END is somewhat arbitrary anyway; I'm not really discerning a pattern. I can't, for instance, have Aid in my fire EC to allow me to increase an existing fire, but I can have an EB or RKA that creates one.

 

In any event it is an injunction that is easy enough to get around; 'costs END to activate': I have damage reduction that costs END to activate to simulate me having a rubber body that I, for some reason, have to switch on. It makes the power visible and non-persistent, but in superhero games - where ECs are most often used - it will be obvious you've got massive defences after the first time you are hit andway.

 

I think the problem that some people have with the rule, myself occasionally included, is that it doesn't really make sense in some situations. I could see a lot more sense to it if all powers in an EC had to be visible in use and share the same sfx; the real disadvantage of an EC to me is that, once it becomes obvious to an opponent that your powers all come from a single source, they can hit you with a devastating drain, or work out some appropriate tactic; fire powers should, presumably, be dampened by an attack based on vacuum, or water.

 

The rule is there, I think, to try and balance the usefulness of ECs - but to my mind if an EC is taken because it is in-concept, rather than because it is a cheap way to get a powerful character, then balance should be very much a background issue, because a properly thought through concept should create a high degree of balance anyway.

 

To the original issue here, Fitzerific is concerned that you can't build an armoured hero with an EC containing life support, armour and characteristics. If I was running a game then i'd have no real problem with that, so long as the player could explain why it is that there things are linked (in the non-Hero sense), and draining one drains the rest. It doesn't make much sense to me that an armoured suit, for example, could have its armour drained in the same way as its strength, and draining LS is always problematic: if I have 45 points in LS and 15 points are drained does that have no effect (until all the points are gone) or have I lost my self contained breathing and immunity to heat, cold and high pressure?

 

The way I visualise an EC is that it is a single power that has a lot of different uses. A lot of 'brick' concepts simply don't fit for me, and a lot of power armour concepts just seem daft in context, but some do work, and I can't see any good reason why the controlling factor should be END use.

 

Of course that is my own take on ECs and how I like to play them and see them played, but it does pick up on, what to me is the single most important thing about ECs - the powers in an EC have to be related by common special effects. This might explain some of the logic of the rule - all powers in an EC have to have sfx - and therefore have to be visible - but it still does not explain the requirement to cost END.

 

Of course Hero sfx require a visual component, and I can see why that is often important for ECs - if your powers were not obvious then it might be hard for an opponent to work out that they are in an EC and so you get additional utility from it. I can see that. It seems perfectly reasonable.

[Comic]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

Mr. Reasonable posits a perfectly plausible question, though I have to quibble with the assumptions.

 

The decision to charge END is only slightly arbitrary, and for the most part is fairly even-handed, following comic-book superhero logic.

 

The fact that Comic logic is largely arbitrary may be what introduces the problem?

 

For the most part, where the rule matters, it makes more sense than not having it.

 

Where the rule doesn't matter, for campaign reasons, GM's freely drop it. Issue resolved, to my mind.