Fighting against more speed

[Nygenn]

I was wondering if there are any tactics one can use to fight against an opponent with a higher speed and dex.

 

let's say you have 4 SPD and 20 dex and your opponent has 5 SPD and 23 dex. The 5 SPD character plays it save and keeps full DCV until he gets his free phase in segment 10 where he goes full OCV only to return to full DCV again in segment 12.

 

I figured that the only way you could actually really fight a battle like this would be with an strike maneuver with the abort function in it, only to discover that that's not allowed. So what's left? besides multiple attackers.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Fighting against more speed

 

SPD 5,23 DEX, Ph 12: "I Dodge so I have full DCV.

 

SPD 4, 20 DEX, Ph 12: OK, I reserve until he stops dodging at which time I fire on him"

 

Stalemate. SPD 5 never stops dodging as he never has the advantage. SPD 4 never stops reserving as SPD 5 is always DCV boosted.

 

Or SPD 4 puts everything into OCV and fires in Phase 1. If SPD 5 retaliates in Phase 3, SPD 4 aborts to dodge. The power of holding an action is often overlooked as we rush to take action as soon as our phase comes up.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Fighting against more speed

 

What Hugh said...

 

However you have to accept that if one character has spent 19 points more on SPD and DEX that they expect to get the value from that.

 

If they characters are evenly spent then the slower, less dextrous character should have 19 points spent elsewhere that may even it out - an area effect flash attack might aid them - special effects that provide one off OCV bonuses etc etc.

 

If the character is a lower level then it might be expected that the best they can accomplish in this scenario is to establish a stalemate.

 

 

Doc

[Kenn]

Re: Fighting against more speed

 

Holding one's action and blocking.

 

Area effect attacks.

 

Skill levels in OCV.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Fighting against more speed

 

A bomb. Meaning an AoE attack. Glue bomb, explosive, whatever...

[Outsider]

Re: Fighting against more speed

 

What Hugh said...

 

However you have to accept that if one character has spent 19 points more on SPD and DEX that they expect to get the value from that.

 

If they characters are evenly spent then the slower, less dextrous character should have 19 points spent elsewhere that may even it out - an area effect flash attack might aid them - special effects that provide one off OCV bonuses etc etc.

 

If the character is a lower level then it might be expected that the best they can accomplish in this scenario is to establish a stalemate.

 

 

Doc

 

 

Actually, its only 16 more points (the extra DEX counts towards the extra speed) but that's just nitpicky on my part

 

 

In any case, it is important to know what those points were spent on. If they were used to increase the lower DEX/SPD character's CVs or defenses it is very different than if they were spend on something that isnt usable in combat, like social skills or somesuch.

 

 

IF the lower DEX/DCV character is otherwise the same as the higher one in combat, that means he will be on the down side of the odds-to-hit AND not be hitting as much... meaning he's probably going to lose in a straight up punching match.

 

If all else (combatwise) is the same then the lower DEX character hits 50% (10-), while the upper one hits 75% (12-). Then the faster one also hits 120% as often, for an overall offensive potential of 180% that of the slower character.

 

If levels or maneuvers are involved, there is some stuff the lower DEX/SPD character can do. First, hold. Second, let him commit to his action first. If he chooses to sacrifice OCV for damage or DCV, abort to dodge. He will likely miss as you're only 1 CV different. If he goes for the high OCV to be sure to hit you even if you dodge, dont. Take the punch, then put all your levels into OCV and hit him back while his DCV is low and he can't abort. If you can't even take his OCV (as opposed to damage) heavy attack without losing your phase to stun or unconsciousness, you're pretty hosed., though.

[Nygenn]

Re: Fighting against more speed

 

Ye ok it's true that instead of extra speed you can buy other stuff to overpower someone with more speed. I was really just seeing if there were some idea's on how to best approach someone that's faster than you in combat, but otherwise equal.

 

Not sure i I someone here said something about that but how much would it cost to just improve your base CV the way more DEX normally does, without actually buying more DEX?

[braincraft]

Re: Fighting against more speed

 

Assuming otherwise completely identical characters with identical point values?

 

If the 16 points were spent in extra martial arts damage classes, just keep swinging for the bleachers; he can't afford to get hit, so he'll have to keep dodging and only gets one good swing in on you a turn, but you only need to get lucky once.

 

If the 16 points were spent on armor, take your time and line up your shots. Aim. You'll wear him down. Hell, start setting off grenades if you think he has to stay close; you're a lot less likely to die or be stunned if you're both caught in the blast radius.

 

If he just plain has more points than you in combat stuff, then pray the dice gods smile on you and prepare to eat boot.

[braincraft]

Re: Fighting against more speed

 

Not sure i I someone here said something about that but how much would it cost to just improve your base CV the way more DEX normally does' date=' without actually buying more DEX?[/quote']

 

You can buy combat skill levels in flat DCV for 5 points per +1, but that's only a little less expensive than just buying up the DEX, which would also improve your OCV and turn order. You can buy 3-point levels that affect DCV, but generally they'll only work in HtH. You can buy CSLs with limitations, which might work well; a lot of characters have CSLs in DCV with limitations like "only after taking at least a half-move" and "only when unarmored or lightly armored".

 

DEX is a real bargain, and so is SPD. Significant gaps in those statistics will make things tough, unless you have a significant advantage in some other category.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Fighting against more speed

 

Ye ok it's true that instead of extra speed you can buy other stuff to overpower someone with more speed. I was really just seeing if there were some idea's on how to best approach someone that's faster than you in combat, but otherwise equal.

 

Not sure i I someone here said something about that but how much would it cost to just improve your base CV the way more DEX normally does, without actually buying more DEX?

 

Combat Skill Levels are the way to go for this. (See the Skills section of the rulebook.) 2 points will buy +1 with the OCV for a single attack, so if your character has a favorite offensive option improving it can be a great bargain. 3 points will add +1 OCV or DCV when using any three free Hand-To-Hand Combat Maneuvers, or when using any maneuver from a particular Martial Art style, or (with GM permission) when using a maneuver with a tight group of weapons, like all swords or all pistols. It will also give you +1 when using any attack in a Power Framework like Multipower or Elemental Control.

[archermoo]

Re: Fighting against more speed

 

Ye ok it's true that instead of extra speed you can buy other stuff to overpower someone with more speed. I was really just seeing if there were some idea's on how to best approach someone that's faster than you in combat, but otherwise equal.

 

Well, in general going up against someone who is identical to you except for where they are better than you means that you aren't going to be doing a whole lot of winning. Particularly if the areas that they are better than you are combat useful ones.

[Roter Baron]

Re: Fighting against more speed

 

While all the tipps are pretty good, that is what I DO DISLIKE about the Speed Chart: It turns the game into one game of roleplaying-chess.

 

All is good and well from a gaming point of view - but what about the "realism" of thegaming world in which the pcs fight? "I hold my action till he stops with his Dodge" does not sound like a "realistic" behaviour in a fight to me. Same with "I save me action so that I can attack on segment 11 and 12" - yeah, right! I do that, too: Concentrate and do nothing for seconds and all the sudden I am fast like a whirlwind ...

[archermoo]

Re: Fighting against more speed

 

While all the tipps are pretty good, that is what I DO DISLIKE about the Speed Chart: It turns the game into one game of roleplaying-chess.

 

All is good and well from a gaming point of view - but what about the "realism" of thegaming world in which the pcs fight? "I hold my action till he stops with his Dodge" does not sound like a "realistic" behaviour in a fight to me. Same with "I save me action so that I can attack on segment 11 and 12" - yeah, right! I do that, too: Concentrate and do nothing for seconds and all the sudden I am fast like a whirlwind ...

 

So "I wait until my target stops dodging" doesn't sound like something someone would to in the real world? It does to me. And in mock combats I have personally done the "marshal myself for a few seconds and then throw a rapid set of attacks" bit.

[Roter Baron]

Re: Fighting against more speed

 

Well, I have run into combats that felt like chess to me: people reserving half-moves till "the segment is right" etc. Stalls combats and actually puts the gm at a disadvantage because if he employs the same tactics comat really becomes a drag.

and he ha sto play several characters, not just one.

 

I agree, sounds okay and right. But in the game it feels like Tactics 101 and not like a amsterful battle of a tavern brawl to me. I liek initiative rolls and would like that 6th edition would include an official option how to employ initiative-rolls in the game without getting rid of the Speed-attribute and the option of multiple actions.

[archermoo]

Re: Fighting against more speed

 

Well, I have run into combats that felt like chess to me: people reserving half-moves till "the segment is right" etc. Stalls combats and actually puts the gm at a disadvantage because if he employs the same tactics comat really becomes a drag.

and he ha sto play several characters, not just one.

 

I agree, sounds okay and right. But in the game it feels like Tactics 101 and not like a amsterful battle of a tavern brawl to me. I liek initiative rolls and would like that 6th edition would include an official option how to employ initiative-rolls in the game without getting rid of the Speed-attribute and the option of multiple actions.

 

Im my experience, "real" combats (I've only ever done simulated ones) have a lot more "waiting around until the time is right" than most people seem to think.

 

I guess I wouldn't really object to 6e mentioning the use of initiative rolls instead of the Speed Chart, but I certainly would object to it becoming the standard way of doing things.

[Alibear]

Re: Fighting against more speed

 

I reckon the Hero does a fair job of simulating dojo fights.

[braincraft]

Re: Fighting against more speed

 

While all the tipps are pretty good, that is what I DO DISLIKE about the Speed Chart: It turns the game into one game of roleplaying-chess.

 

All is good and well from a gaming point of view - but what about the "realism" of thegaming world in which the pcs fight? "I hold my action till he stops with his Dodge" does not sound like a "realistic" behaviour in a fight to me. Same with "I save me action so that I can attack on segment 11 and 12" - yeah, right! I do that, too: Concentrate and do nothing for seconds and all the sudden I am fast like a whirlwind ...

 

It's actually pretty damn realistic. If you don't have an overwhelming advantage, the smart move is to hold back until your opponent leaves an opening. This is especially true when you have lethal weapons in play, since it's not a good idea to take a chance and hope you're faster unless you're pretty sure you are.

 

Of course, there's something to be said for forcing your opponent into making a move, too, which is why all fights don't turn into standoffs. But initiative in real life is a complicated thing, full of rapid high-stakes gambles, tactical decisionmaking, and intuitive flashes... and any time people fight, the stakes get pretty high.

 

Admittedly: it's hard to simulate this in a game without having overly-complex rules, and it's hard for players to simulate this without getting into an antagonistic gamist mode. (Not that there's anything strange about feeling antagonistic about a fight, even a simulated one.)

 

So long as everyone's on the same page in terms of having fun and playing roles, this isn't a problem; the GM makes it clear that he won't unfairly screw the players for making tactical or roleplaying decisions (he shouldn't be unfairly screwing the players at all, really) and the players make it clear that they'll play their characters like characters, not like indistinctly utilitarian pieces in a chess game. If your cop doesn't want to shoot the perp, it'll be a standoff until someone makes a wrong move. If your grizzled swordsman is an honorable professional, he'll wait for his opponent to draw before cutting him down. And if your speedster superhero looks before he leaps, he'll whizz by, throwing hypervelocity punches, even if he knows the villain is only going to dodge or put up a force field.

[LaughingLunatic]

Re: Fighting against more speed

 

Well, I have run into combats that felt like chess to me: people reserving half-moves till "the segment is right" etc. Stalls combats and actually puts the gm at a disadvantage because if he employs the same tactics comat really becomes a drag.

and he ha sto play several characters, not just one.

 

I agree, sounds okay and right. But in the game it feels like Tactics 101 and not like a amsterful battle of a tavern brawl to me. I liek initiative rolls and would like that 6th edition would include an official option how to employ initiative-rolls in the game without getting rid of the Speed-attribute and the option of multiple actions.

 

Instead of dropping the speed chart entirely, why not just make the initiative within the segment variable?

 

Instead of each player proceeding through their phase in descending order of DEX, try the following:

 

Each player rolls initiative: 3d6 + DEX/3

Then use the results of the initiative roll instead of each characters actual DEX to determine the order of the phase. This way, those who paid for the faster DEX/SPD will still get their benefits but the lower DEX/SPD character could get lucky and go before them.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Fighting against more speed

 

I was wondering if there are any tactics one can use to fight against an opponent with a higher speed and dex.

 

let's say you have 4 SPD and 20 dex and your opponent has 5 SPD and 23 dex. The 5 SPD character plays it save and keeps full DCV until he gets his free phase in segment 10 where he goes full OCV only to return to full DCV again in segment 12.

 

I figured that the only way you could actually really fight a battle like this would be with an strike maneuver with the abort function in it, only to discover that that's not allowed. So what's left? besides multiple attackers.

Assuming the fight is as you say and the faster character is only attacking in his "free" Phase, I'd have the slower character attack on all his own Phases. With such a minor OCV/DCV discrepency, the slower character still has a fair chance of hitting his opponent. If he wants to play the game, he can do a Dodge on his last Phase just before the quicker character launches his attack. He'd get the DCV bonus until his his DEX rank on his next Phase; meaning he'd have the Dodge bonus for his opponent's next two attacks.

 

If he manages to Block successfully, he can attack first in his next Phase regardless of DEX rank.

 

Sometimes you get the bear, and sometimes the bear gets you. (IOW, not every character can beat every other supposedly equal character.)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Fighting against more speed

 

Now I want to make a character called "Rock, Paper, Scissors"

[The Monster]

Re: Fighting against more speed

 

Bring a buddy. Don't assume the rules exclude team play.

 

...you did say 'besides multiple attackers' - but I think that's the way to go. If he spends 16 points on DEX/SPD, you should be bale to spend 16 points on a Follower with a netgun. As already pointed out, fighting someone who's just like you but with better stats is hard to overcome.

[Nygenn]

Re: Fighting against more speed

 

Thanks to everyone for the information and different opinions on how to deal with faster opponents. The initial question wasn't really about hoping to win against a combat superior opponent but how to best deal with one should you come up against him/her. I am really happy with the replies i got.

 

Then on a slightly different note. Why is it so explicitly forbidden to build an offensive maneuver with abort. The way I see it you can only benefit from it once in combat against the same opponent much like any other maneuver. I wouldn't have raised an eyebrow if it had just a warning note attached to it, but the way it's written down makes it seem like it's the ultimate taboo that's not going to happen even should the GM allow it. Why? I must be missing something.

[Beast]

Re: Fighting against more speed

 

I got to agree with this I fence foil,shinai,and do low speed live steel and I while I can be fast with my strikes I'm pretty slow with my footwork

So I'm always looking for an opening seeing what type of blow my opponet prefers to use

 

you might want to buy skill levels with the limitation that you need to observe your foe first to gauge his style and to come up with a counter

+1 CSL(all combat) extra phase to activate -1/4

+1 csl(all combat) 1 turn to activate -3/4

both would be bought that you just need to observe the target and could still do things (I think this lowers the lim by -1/4)

 

It's actually pretty damn realistic. If you don't have an overwhelming advantage, the smart move is to hold back until your opponent leaves an opening. This is especially true when you have lethal weapons in play, since it's not a good idea to take a chance and hope you're faster unless you're pretty sure you are.

 

Of course, there's something to be said for forcing your opponent into making a move, too, which is why all fights don't turn into standoffs. But initiative in real life is a complicated thing, full of rapid high-stakes gambles, tactical decisionmaking, and intuitive flashes... and any time people fight, the stakes get pretty high.

 

Admittedly: it's hard to simulate this in a game without having overly-complex rules, and it's hard for players to simulate this without getting into an antagonistic gamist mode. (Not that there's anything strange about feeling antagonistic about a fight, even a simulated one.)

 

So long as everyone's on the same page in terms of having fun and playing roles, this isn't a problem; the GM makes it clear that he won't unfairly screw the players for making tactical or roleplaying decisions (he shouldn't be unfairly screwing the players at all, really) and the players make it clear that they'll play their characters like characters, not like indistinctly utilitarian pieces in a chess game. If your cop doesn't want to shoot the perp, it'll be a standoff until someone makes a wrong move. If your grizzled swordsman is an honorable professional, he'll wait for his opponent to draw before cutting him down. And if your speedster superhero looks before he leaps, he'll whizz by, throwing hypervelocity punches, even if he knows the villain is only going to dodge or put up a force field.

[braincraft]

I dodge, then abort to attack, then attack when the other guy aborts to dodge

 

Then on a slightly different note. Why is it so explicitly forbidden to build an offensive maneuver with abort. The way I see it you can only benefit from it once in combat against the same opponent much like any other maneuver.

 

One of us doesn't understand how the rules work.

[Maur]

Re: Fighting against more speed

 

You abort to save yourself and can't abort if you've already used an action that phase. If you want to have an attack action to use against an opponent, then you hold your action for either a specific time or event. E.g. Hold and take aim at a corner of a building and shoot when someone comes out.

 

In the case of dealing with a faster opponent, one can hurry to get Dex on him and then use that to set up for an attack. Or do other things to take advantage of the shape of the battlefield so the faster guy can't take advantage of his speed.

 

If the speed guy wants to go full defensive for the 4 actions that you have, well, hit him with something his extra DCV won't help against. E.g. an AoE...