New Mechanic: Different Approaches For Deflection/Reflection

[schir1964]

Deflection/Reflection [Power/Defense]

This power allows the character to attempt to deflect/reflect an attack that they are aware of (perception rolls may be required by the GM as circumstances dictate). The player must specify the types of SFX the Deflection/Reflection works against.

 

The player purchases the level of effect (Active Points) in Deflection/Reflection. When an attack matches the character's Deflection/Reflection SFX, the character may attempt to Deflect/Reflect the attack by making an Deflection/Reflection roll (see below). The active points of the attack are compared to the active points of the deflections/reflection to determine the Deflection/Reflection Modifier: (Attack Active Points - Deflection/Reflection Active Points) / 10 [Drop Fractions].

 

If a character successfully Reflects and attack, only the Reflection Active Points is used to determine damage.

 

Deflection/Reflection Roll

9 + OCV - DCV + (Deflection/Reflection Modifier) >= 11 (Success)

 

Cost

1 Point Per 1 Active Points Deflection (vs Single SFX: See Adjustment Powers For Expansion)

2 Points Per 1 Active Points Reflection (vs Single SFX: See Adjustment Powers for Expansion)

 

Advantages

Hardened (+1/4): Negates a level of Armor Piercing or Penetrating.

Shield (+2): No Deflection/Reflection Roll required for attacks less than or equal to the Deflection/Reflection Level.

 

Limitations

Not vs Melee Attacks: Not vs attacks that are delivered via melee.

Not vs Ranged Attacks: Not vs attacks that are delivered at range.

 

Notes

 

• Armor Piercing: Halves Active Points of Deflection/Reflection for calculations.
  
• Penetrating: Character still takes Penetrating Minimum even on Success.
   
  
• Indirect: Each level of Indirect imposes a cumulative -1 penalty.
  

 

 

Version: Rough Draft

 

Just one alternative method for handling Deflection/Reflection.

Please post your own or offer changes to what I got here.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Mechanic: Different Approaches For Deflection/Reflection

 

Ultimate Energy Projector:

 

Base Level deflects anything with a penalty based on the Attacks Active Points.

Restricting what can be deflected (as by SFX of "Thrown;" "Bullets;" etc...) is a Limitation placed on the MD/R Power.

 

Workable and uncomplicated.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Different Approaches For Deflection/Reflection

 

Ultimate Energy Projector:

 

Base Level deflects anything with a penalty based on the Attacks Active Points.

Restricting what can be deflected (as by SFX of "Thrown;" "Bullets;" etc...) is a Limitation placed on the MD/R Power.

 

Workable and uncomplicated.

Do you think this will become the default for 6th Edition?

 

Just Curious

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Mechanic: Different Approaches For Deflection/Reflection

 

Personally, I hope so.

[nexus]

Re: New Mechanic: Different Approaches For Deflection/Reflection

 

The proposal seems as a little over complicated. MD is just a block that can be used against Ranged Attacks. HTH Block doesn't suffer any penalties, I'm not sure why a Ranged Variant should.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Different Approaches For Deflection/Reflection

 

The proposal seems as a little over complicated. MD is just a block that can be used against Ranged Attacks. HTH Block doesn't suffer any penalties' date=' I'm not sure why a Ranged Variant should.[/quote']

There have been threads that have detailed the differences between Block and Missile Deflection. They aren't the same mechanically.

 

However, conceptually they should be which is why many have suggested that there just be one mechanic to handle both.

 

Yes, my rough draft is perhaps a bit complicated as most of my ideas usually start being.

 

Note: I thought Block did suffer penalties for each additional attack that you attempt to block.

 

Anyways, the main thing about this construct and I guess the UEP, is that they aren't not absolutes and scale which is where Penalty and Active Points come it.

 

Do you have an alternative you would like to propose?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Vondy]

Re: New Mechanic: Different Approaches For Deflection/Reflection

 

Note: I thought Block did suffer penalties for each additional attack that you attempt to block.

 

Both block and missile deflection suffer a -2 for each attack past the first. Second block -2, third block -4, and so on.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Different Approaches For Deflection/Reflection

 

Both block and missile deflection suffer a -2 for each attack past the first. Second block -2' date=' third block -4, and so on.[/quote']

I thought so. Thanks.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Different Approaches For Deflection/Reflection

 

I'd rather see reflection be a power, 3 points per D6, thats how many active points of power you bounced rather than took. Instant power that costs END, you buy it against a specific power (energy blast, for example) and can buy advantages to broaden the effect. Won't work on AE (you can't reflect an explosion), but it could be bought for any power, such as Ego Attacks, etc.

 

Deflection I see as a martial arts/physical maneuver, I batted your attack aside.

[nexus]

Re: New Mechanic: Different Approaches For Deflection/Reflection

 

There have been threads that have detailed the differences between Block and Missile Deflection. They aren't the same mechanically.

 

I must have missed them. But these are the differences that come to mind

 

Missile Deflection is somewhat "Continuous" since it last until the chacter's next phase

 

Missile Deflection has no effect on combat order.

 

 

Note: I thought Block did suffer penalties for each additional attack that you attempt to block.

 

IIRC, you and I thought you suffered the same penalty for MD

 

I meant Block suffers no penalties for the Active points of the Incoming Attack. A 8 Str person can Block and 200 Active point attack at no penalty.

 

I'd just make a 20 point power that can limited as required. Only vs Thrown, or whatever. The limitation value would have course vary according to campaign. Maybe even make it 10 for simply the Ability to use a Block Maneuver against a Ranged Attack and adding "Continuous" +1 would allow to last until you next phase. Not affecting combat order would, IMO, just be a side effect of the powers nature. It's kind of nebulous advantage for Block anyway, IME.

 

Affects Hand to Hand would be an Adder (for Reflection of course) that could be brought on it's own as a "adder" to the character's free Block (or Martial Block if the have it). It could not be Aborted to. That would require some sort of Trigger Advantage.

[nexus]

Re: New Mechanic: Different Approaches For Deflection/Reflection

 

I'd rather see reflection be a power, 3 points per D6, thats how many active points of power you bounced rather than took. Instant power that costs END, you buy it against a specific power (energy blast, for example) and can buy advantages to broaden the effect. Won't work on AE (you can't reflect an explosion), but it could be bought for any power, such as Ego Attacks, etc.

 

Deflection I see as a martial arts/physical maneuver, I batted your attack aside.

 

It can be but Hero powers aren't limited to one special effect.

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Different Approaches For Deflection/Reflection

 

It can be but Hero powers aren't limited to one special effect.

 

I think you know what I mean when I describe the power that way: deflection means deflection as in it shunts off or changes the vector of an attack without absorbing it. In a certain sense, missile deflection could be dropped entirely and folded into force field or armor, defined as "deflection" but this is one of those powers that's so common in the literature that its just useful to have something people can grab easily and use.

 

Thus, the power "deflection" should be limited to obvious and clear manners of deflecting, be that using your hands, a shield, a little round robot that interposes in front of the attack, a time/space distortion, or what have you.

[nexus]

Re: New Mechanic: Different Approaches For Deflection/Reflection

 

I think you know what I mean when I describe the power that way: deflection means deflection as in it shunts off or changes the vector of an attack without absorbing it.

 

You said a "Physical/martial arts maneuver" which are pretty specific special effects and considering what you've said about Missile Deflection in other threads it wasn't clear. And "Missile Deflection" can be used to represent a number of things. "Active Dodge", "Making the Target miss", etc. It's all sfx. In fact, you can take things like Restrainable and Gestures on Missile Deflection, otherwise you can Missile Deflect even if your entangled.

 

Hm, come to think of it that's another way it's different from Block

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Different Approaches For Deflection/Reflection

 

I must have missed them. But these are the differences that come to mind

 

Missile Deflection is somewhat "Continuous" since it last until the chacter's next phase

 

Missile Deflection has no effect on combat order.

Yeah. They all happened around the same time about three to four years ago. But you've listed two of the differences. I think there was more, but they may have been more subtle things concerning combat idiosyncrasies.

 

IIRC, you and I thought you suffered the same penalty for MD

 

I meant Block suffers no penalties for the Active points of the Incoming Attack. A 8 Str person can Block and 200 Active point attack at no penalty.

Ah, ok. Sorry, I misunderstood.

 

Anyway, based on what Ghost-Angel said, it looks like the UEP has already created a mechanic like this, so I'd just as soon see that version become the default. When you don't buy a lot of supplements as I do, you create your own mechanics as you find a need for them.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Different Approaches For Deflection/Reflection

 

In fact, you can take things like Restrainable and Gestures on Missile Deflection, otherwise you can Missile Deflect even if your entangled.

 

Actually, here's where it gets funny. The rules say that you have to define the way your power "emerges" such as that it comes from your hands or your eyes, what have you. Someone could, theoretically, grab you and prevent you from blasting someone else by using this (or twist your armor over your eye blasts, etc). So in a sense, most powers are "restrainable" in that they can't be used when restrained.

 

Wolverine's claws, for example: not restrainable, by the rules, not a focus. Yet if you tie his arms behind his back, he's going to have a tough time using them on anyone.

 

So by that sense... almost all powers fall under the description you just gave for Missile Deflection.

 

And technically you can block with something other than your hands, if you have them tied behind your back.

[nexus]

Re: New Mechanic: Different Approaches For Deflection/Reflection

 

Actually, here's where it gets funny. The rules say that you have to define the way your power "emerges" such as that it comes from your hands or your eyes, what have you. Someone could, theoretically, grab you and prevent you from blasting someone else by using this (or twist your armor over your eye blasts, etc). So in a sense, most powers are "restrainable" in that they can't be used when restrained.

 

Point of Origin is primarily for Energy Blasts and other such powers. Not, for example Defenses; You don't have to define where your Force Field or Armor "emerges". Missile Deflection is a Defense.

 

Wolverine's claws, for example: not restrainable, by the rules, not a focus. Yet if you tie his arms behind his back, he's going to have a tough time using them on anyone.

 

Who's says Wolverine's claws wouldn't have Restrainable on them? The Limitation exists for this sort of thing. You're assuming there is some universal "correct" write up of Wolverine. I'd certainly give them Restrainable. Earlier write up might not have it since the Limitation itself is pretty recent.

 

So by that sense... almost all powers fall under the description you just gave for Missile Deflection.

 

Not really, no.

 

And technically you can block with something other than your hands, if you have them tied behind your back.

 

It would be a matter of GM's fiat (perhaps if the character has Contortionist or the sfx if the character's "Block" wasn't a parry but I don't think most GMs would allow a Block maneuver for an entangled or bound character without a pretty good rationale. Missile Deflection doesn't have that limitation automatically. It's as generic as other Hero System powers until unless the player puts Limitation on it.

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Different Approaches For Deflection/Reflection

 

Who's says Wolverine's claws wouldn't have Restrainable on them?

 

As a GM I wouldn't allow someone to buy them that way, because they aren't something you can grab like an OAF and prevent use easily. Wings makes sense, they can be fouled or otherwise kept from use. Claws? No.

 

I don't think most GMs would allow a Block maneuver for an entangled or bound character

 

Well, since my specific example was "hands behind the back" not "mummified in spiderman's webs" I think you can see how someone might be able to still block under those circumstances.

 

In any case, a power based on dice rather than the present structure for reflection would be a superior construction. Instead of reflecting based on the special effect of the attack and an attack roll, you reflect based on the power of the attack.

 

Deflection is fine as written, particularly once Steve actually responds to how Missile Deflection works.

[schir1964]

As a GM I wouldn't allow someone to buy them that way' date=' because they aren't something you can grab like an OAF and prevent use easily. Wings makes sense, they can be fouled or otherwise kept from use. Claws? No.[/quote']

I'm only addressing this since it seems you are deliberately overlooking something.

 

Wolverines Claws have been written up as an IIF and treated just like a cyborg who has single cybernetic arm (human looking) that has a hidden extensible blade at the tip.

 

Both are written up as an IIF since both can be technically be removed out of combat (genre tropes not withstanding). And both weapons can be restrained and rendered useless (The X-Men movie has shown that Magneto has the power to restrain just Wolverines arms if he wanted and render them useless - and I'm not talking about the metal bindings just magneto's power).

 

Note: Notice I didn't say either character is prevented from using the attack, I'm saying the attacks, even if used, are rendered useless. So even a gun in the hand of a a person in handcuffs can fire the weapon, but it the only angle they aim at due to being restrained is down, it doesn't matter how many times the gun is fired.

 

Just An Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Different Approaches For Deflection/Reflection

 

Wolverines Claws have been written up as an IIF and treated just like a cyborg who has single cybernetic arm (human looking) that has a hidden extensible blade at the tip.

 

I think "can only be removed by extraordinary effort such as surgery" violates the IIF rules. At least it would in my game.

 

And both weapons can be restrained and rendered useless

 

The Point of Origin rules in the book specifically refer to doing this without giving a limitation for the possibility.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Different Approaches For Deflection/Reflection

 

I think "can only be removed by extraordinary effort such as surgery" violates the IIF rules. At least it would in my game.

Possibly, but then so would a Suit of Armor that takes extraordinary effort to unlock and take off a character due to locking mechanisms. It doesn't change the fact that it is still a Focus in that the power requires the Suit and can be used by anybody (Universal).

 

The Point of Origin rules in the book specifically refer to doing this without giving a limitation for the possibility.

So? Okay, don't give a limitation for either, doesn't change the point that if one can be restrained, then so can the other. Which is all that I was suggesting.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[proditor]

Re: New Mechanic: Different Approaches For Deflection/Reflection

 

Well here's the thing.

 

We could argue for days about whether or not something is a "legitimate" limitation or not, but the proof is in the pudding as they say.

 

Wolverine has his claws rendered moot fairly often in the comics, mostly because people think "Hey, that guy has freaky pointy claws that cut through anything, including the laws of physics. Maybe we should do something about that?" And they pull out nullifiers, or strap them to his chest, or something else designed to keep him from using them.

 

So in the "Marvel HERO game", either Wolverine's PC paid for Restrainable or Focus, or after the eleventy-billionth time that someone rendered him all but ineffective, the player went "Dude, come on, that's gotta be worth a -1/4 at this point...There is no way Cap keeps getting OAF and I'm stuck with nothing!" Then Joe Q cut a greaser, and everyone threw food at him until he cried.

 

Um, anyway, you get my point I hope.

 

This is HERO, and it's a limit if the players and the GM agree it's a limit. That's about the only hard fast rule here.

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Different Approaches For Deflection/Reflection

 

So in the "Marvel HERO game", either Wolverine's PC paid for Restrainable or Focus, or after the eleventy-billionth time that someone rendered him all but ineffective, the player went "Dude, come on, that's gotta be worth a -1/4 at this point...There is no way Cap keeps getting OAF and I'm stuck with nothing!" Then Joe Q cut a greaser, and everyone threw food at him until he cried.

 

Yeah I think after a while they ended up being a focus because of the writers, while Cyclops doesn't even though he's even easier to shut down (he can't blast through his own closed eyelids).

 

More directly to the original post:

 

Since Mr Long has replied to the question about Missile Deflection and stated that my understanding of the power is not according to the official rules, I'd like to offer this up:

 

Missile Deflection at present is a weird hybrid of special effects and just whatever, like a bunch of stuff piled together that didn't fit anywhere else.

 

The first 15 points are based on missile special effects, as one would expect from the name of the power. The last 5 points are "anything at all" ignoring special effects completely. This seems to me an extraordinary leap for just 5 points and a poor diversion of the power.

 

So here's how I'd rather see it structured:

 

5 pts: thrown objects

10 pts: launched projectiles (arrows)

15 pts: bullets

20 pts: any attack of a given special effect (Fire, cold, etc)

+5 pts: any sort of attack of a broad category of special effects (fire, lightning, and light-based)

+5 pts: any sort of attack of any sort of special effect (anything)

 

Then at least to get to the "I can ignore any normal attack" level you have to be spending at least 30 points. This would also at least make the power consistently based on special effects. Given that +1 with this ability is only 2 points, for 50 points you can make your character basically invulnerable to incoming standard attacks, that's still pretty cheap.

[Alibear]

Re: New Mechanic: Different Approaches For Deflection/Reflection

 

Well, for 40 points you can be basically immune to everything (desolid again barring a special effect or two) so I'd keep the cost down to that or less for full missile deflection.

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Different Approaches For Deflection/Reflection

 

Well, for 40 points you can be basically immune to everything (desolid again barring a special effect or two)

 

And not be able to attack.

[Alibear]

Re: New Mechanic: Different Approaches For Deflection/Reflection

 

And not be able to attack.

 

Exactly as you cannot attack if you block or missile deflect. Or am I missing something game-shattering again?