Dodge Giant Blows

[Jfry]

In a Fantasty Hero setting, Giants are often built with AOE(1 Hex) on their punch. I like this as a rule, but it runs counter to another Fantasy convention: the slippery gnome (dwarf, etc.) who is adept at avoiding giants' blows.

 

As I understand it (unless the GM ruled otherwise) buying this as DCV levels doesn't work, because the Giant's swinging at your hex, not you. The standard option is to dive for cover, but that requires aborting your action and ending up prone - which goes against the flavor of a gnome who giants find it hard to hit. That led me to the following:

 

4pts - Dodge Giants: Teleportation 2", When about to be hit by an AOE attack (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) (8 Active Points); Only to escape from or avoid being hit by AOE attacks Power does not work in Common Circumstances (-1/2), Activation Roll 15- (-1/4), Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-1/4)

 

What do you think? How have you / would you solve this problem?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Dodge Giant Blows

 

Like many issues in Hero it is usually best to design this thing into the attack.

 

I would limit the area of effect advantage on the giant's attack so that it does not work against gnomes (dwarves, etc).

 

Doc

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Dodge Giant Blows

 

One option is to buy the AOE attack as 1 Hex Accurate, and for bigger giants, AOE Selective. Both (I think; at least I think 1HA does) of those give the target the option to Dodge.

[nexus]

Re: Dodge Giant Blows

 

In a Fantasty Hero setting, Giants are often built with AOE(1 Hex) on their punch. I like this as a rule, but it runs counter to another Fantasy convention: the slippery gnome (dwarf, etc.) who is adept at avoiding giants' blows.

 

As I understand it (unless the GM ruled otherwise) buying this as DCV levels doesn't work, because the Giant's swinging at your hex, not you. The standard option is to dive for cover, but that requires aborting your action and ending up prone - which goes against the flavor of a gnome who giants find it hard to hit. That led me to the following:

 

4pts - Dodge Giants: Teleportation 2", When about to be hit by an AOE attack (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) (8 Active Points); Only to escape from or avoid being hit by AOE attacks Power does not work in Common Circumstances (-1/2), Activation Roll 15- (-1/4), Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-1/4)

 

What do you think? How have you / would you solve this problem?

 

That's how I built a similar effect for a Speedster. It might be "rules bendy" but it worked.

 

I usually don't give giants AE attacks but levels to offset sweep penalties because of their big hands/feet/weapons. Area of Effect (IME) is big issue in Heroic level games were speeds are less spread out and Dive for Cover costs a whole Phase. It's also a bit weird that two giants fighting each other don't have to worry about each other's DCV (and often can't Block) though relative each other they're roughly the same size.

 

You could also make the attack Nonselective so the target's DCV applies.

[nexus]

Re: Dodge Giant Blows

 

One option is to buy the AOE attack as 1 Hex Accurate' date=' and for bigger giants, AOE Selective. Both (I think; at least I think 1HA does) of those give the target the option to Dodge.[/quote']

 

I don't have my book handy but I think it's

 

Accurate means only one thing in the target hex is struck but the attack is still vs the hex

 

Selective means you have to hit individuals in the AE but the attacker can decide who he wants to attack and who he doesn't

 

Nonselective is the same as the above except the attacker doesn't have a choice and must attack everyone in the Area of Effect.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Dodge Giant Blows

 

Here's an alternative:

 

Desolidification , Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (80 Active Points); Only Against Fists Of Giants, etc. . . (-2), Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2), Always On (-1/2), Requires A DEX Roll (-1/4) [Real Points 19]

 

Some people don't like to use Desol in this manner, but it certain allows for what you want. Though it's a tad expensive all things considered.

[Jfry]

Re: Dodge Giant Blows

 

Here's an alternative:

 

Desolidification , Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (80 Active Points); Only Against Fists Of Giants, etc. . . (-2), Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2), Always On (-1/2), Requires A DEX Roll (-1/4) [Real Points 19]

 

Some people don't like to use Desol in this manner, but it certain allows for what you want. Though it's a tad expensive all things considered.

 

This seems like a reasonable build...but (barring house rules) I wonder if the character then needs to buy affects physical world on all attacks, or at least on attacks that can effect giants?

[Jfry]

Re: Dodge Giant Blows

 

Like many issues in Hero it is usually best to design this thing into the attack.

 

I would limit the area of effect advantage on the giant's attack so that it does not work against gnomes (dwarves, etc).

 

Doc

 

I can see that - if giants never have much luck hitting gnomes, this does seem like the best way to build it.

 

On the other hand, what I'm picturing is a scenario where giants can hit most gnomes just fine, but not ones that've studied giant-fighting. In that context, it seems more like a power some gnomes have than a limitation that giants' fists (and boulders) have.

 

Thanks!

Jeff

[ghost-angel]

Re: Dodge Giant Blows

 

This seems like a reasonable build...but (barring house rules) I wonder if the character then needs to buy affects physical world on all attacks' date=' or at least on attacks that can effect giants?[/quote']

 

The rulebook suggests that if you Limit the Desol vs a specific attack and let everything else through (a reverse of the usual dynamic) that they do not need to buy Affects Real World on any ability whatsoever.

 

It's why some people do not like to use Desol in this manner - there's a bit of GM Fiat involved.

 

I've used it to good effect (building Elementals that can't be affected by their Element) without any balance issues. And I've played in very few games that don't have a House Rule or some of GM Fiat in place anyways for something or other.

[dsatow]

Re: Dodge Giant Blows

 

Personally I think diving for cover is fine for this. Just give the gnome character +2 levels for DCV/dive for cover (10 points) only vs Giants (-1). This makes the gnome more capable of diving for cover or dodging and gives the option to the gnome.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Dodge Giant Blows

 

I would combine a couple of ideas suggested so far with a minor twist.

 

Use Non-Selective on the Area of Affect (Which means that the Giant can potentially hit multiple targets in the affected hexes but must still make a separate attack roll vs. each target's DCV. It effectively replaces the need to use the Sweep maneuver.)

 

Have the giant take a Physical Disadvantage giving it a -X to OCV vs. 'Small Creatures' (Yes, its hands are so BIG that it can cover a cart but if you're small enough you can usually avoid the worst of it by getting between the fingers, etc..). Or Buy CSL's with a Limitation "Not vs. Small Creatures".

 

This way all the record-keeping is on the Giant's sheet instead of the multitude of creatures that can possibly be considered 'Small Creatures'.

[Gary]

Re: Dodge Giant Blows

 

Here's the question. Do you want the Giant to automatically hit everyone else EXCEPT for gnomes and dwarves? It doesn't seem in genre for Giants to automatically hit fighters, paladins, and rangers. They have to work at it.

 

I'd just remove the Area Effect from the Giant and simply give them 2-4 CSLs with giant hands as the special effect.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Dodge Giant Blows

 

I can see that - if giants never have much luck hitting gnomes, this does seem like the best way to build it.

 

On the other hand, what I'm picturing is a scenario where giants can hit most gnomes just fine, but not ones that've studied giant-fighting. In that context, it seems more like a power some gnomes have than a limitation that giants' fists (and boulders) have.

 

Thanks!

Jeff

 

Gary made a good point about the absolute effect the area effect would have - you may want to consider that. However, to answer your point, if it is not going to be racially bound then the limitiation needs to be more closely drawn and, as such, may be worth no points to the giant.

 

You could limit the area effect to those that have not studied gnomish giant fighting. This would be a perk (3 points seems good) that gnomes can purchase and that other races can seek a master to teach them - a perk costing more points perhaps (maybe 8 points).

 

That way, anyone who expects their career to potentially involve fighting giants may get this training as it means that the giants would no longer automatically hit them unless they spend their time dodging behind rocks...

 

 

Doc

[Alibear]

Re: Dodge Giant Blows

 

Let Gnomes buy a Flying Dodge, only v Giants.

[jtelson]

Re: Dodge Giant Blows

 

How about gnome giant-fighters having a change environment that affects the Giant's OCV? Slap some limitations on it and you're good to go.

[Silbeg]

Re: Dodge Giant Blows

 

I don't have my book handy but I think it's

 

Accurate means only one thing in the target hex is struck but the attack is still vs the hex

per 5ER248, you can still gain the benefit of Dodge or Martial Dodge when the attacker is using AE One Hex Accurate. In addition, defensive CSLs may apply if the target is performing a Dodge, Martial Dodge, or other defensive maneuver. The DCV bonuses will add to the hex's DCV3, rather than the character's DCV.

 

In some cases, an Accurate attack may also be Blocked (but I do not recall where that rule comes from)...

 

Selective means you have to hit individuals in the AE but the attacker can decide who he wants to attack and who he doesn't

Correct, but the target's DCV is used rather than the hex's DCV. So, dodging helps here.

 

Nonselective is the same as the above except the attacker doesn't have a choice and must attack everyone in the Area of Effect.

Correct, with the same additions as above.

[Tonio]

Re: Dodge Giant Blows

 

Let Gnomes buy a Flying Dodge' date=' only v Giants.[/quote']

 

I'd expand on this, and make "Giant Fighting" a Martial Art (that's what it really is, ain't it?) which includes Flying Dodge, some KS's, etc. You can rule that only Gnomes or other small races can train in this Martial Art, if that's how you like it in your campaign.

[Alibear]

Re: Dodge Giant Blows

 

Extra d6 HKA - only v Giants, knowing the Giants weak spots.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Dodge Giant Blows

 

Just to throw in two more cents, I personally would go with extra combat levels for the giants to represent the fact it is easier to hit with a big fist rather than the AoE option because it creates fewer logistical problems. You might include that the giants extra levels can't be used for placed shots and the like though.

 

If you do go with the AoE option, I would just give the gnome extra levels with Dive for Cover, and then have him buy Breakfall so he can roll out of it without being prone. In keeping with the flavor of a fantasy fight between a giant and a gnome, I would also make sure the gnome had a higher SPD, which would allow him to dodge all the time and still get in some blows.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Dodge Giant Blows

 

How about gnome giant-fighters having a change environment that affects the Giant's OCV? Slap some limitations on it and you're good to go.

 

There's your winner.

 

This accomplishes the mission of making gnomes more difficult to hit, not impossible to hit. (or nearly so, a 14- or 15- activation roll is over 90%)

 

Also, it requires less hand-waving (I consider the desolid only vs giants thing to be handwaving) and it's passive, in that it doesn't burn actions on the part of the gnome.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Dodge Giant Blows

 

The original poster was referring to ALL little races, not just Gnomes:

"gnome (dwarf, etc.)"

 

There is no reason to make the little characters pay more points for an ability only usable vs. Giants when it is really just a drawback of being a Giant.

 

AOE Non-Selective doesn't require a DFCover to avoid.

The targets still get their normal DCV.

AOE Non-Selective just allows for a 'sweep-like' attack on everyone in the target hex(es) without further penalty.

[Alibear]

Re: Dodge Giant Blows

 

There is no reason to make the little characters pay more points for an ability only usable vs. Giants when it is really just a drawback of being a Giant.

 

 

Is it though? I thought the original poster wanted the little people to be more adept at avoiding the massive blows rather than the giants struggle to hit quick people.

 

Maybe he could be more specific about just what he is trying to model?