System Gurus...help?

[Immortaldreamer]

First, my apologies, this isn't a simple, clear-cut question, so I'm setting up a scenario to explain, and hopefully learn if I've misread a rule or the situation exists as it looks like it does.

 

Situation: Start of combat, Phase 12, Turn 1.

 

Participant A (henceforth called Aggressor): Fire Blaster with (among other) attacks, a One-Hex AoE, reasonably high damage.

 

Participant B (henceforth called Target): Martial Artist. High DCV, low Defenses.

 

Both participants have the same SPD. Aggressor's DEX is one point higher than Target's.

 

The fight begins. Aggressor is always going to go in the same Phases as Target. Aggressor is always going to go before Target. Because Target has low-defenses, if he gets hit, by mathematical average, he's out of the fight.

 

Aggressor attacks Target with the AoE. In order to not instantly be out of the fight, Target's only choice is to Dive For Cover. However, Dive For Cover counts as an Attack Action, which means that after Diving, Target cannot move, cannot counterattack. Further, he's considered prone. (And this is all IF he makes his Dive For Cover roll).

 

Next Phase: Rinse and repeat. Since Aggressor always goes first, and goes on the same Phases, and Dive For Cover is an Attack Action, Target will never get to take any actions. Because each Phase, all he can do is choose to be hit, or try to Dive For Cover, which instantly ends his Phase.

 

The question is simple...am I reading this right? It seems like a huge abuse to me, and so instinct says I'm misunderstanding something...but I've been over and over the rules, and it -looks- like what I stated above is how it works.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: System Gurus...help?

 

You can always find situations where one character will have an advantage over another one. One option for the martial artist may be to leap close to the fire wielder so that both get hit by the one hex attack.

 

It may be that in an open plain that the energy blaster has that advantage and that the martial artist has no winning options. A brick, once he has grabbed a martial artist is in a similar winning situation.

 

In most circumstances, the martial artist will be in a location where he may force the energy blaster to waste a phase moving and look for some way to get a hit in.

 

One of my messages to players when coming to the game is that the straight up fight is rarely the way to solve a problem - in this case the martial artist is going to have to look for ways to get round the built in advantage of this particular situation.

 

As GM I would expect the martial artist to have breakfall and allow him to continually dive for cover, if that is all that it is going to take, allow him to try and wear the energy blaster out, or manouevre to somewhere that the energy blasters advantage is no longer as overwhelming, where some of the martial artists other skills might come into play...or even to call for help from some friends.

 

 

Doc

[Vondy]

Re: System Gurus...help?

 

Technically, yes. However, this only plays out this way if Target doesn't think tactically and leverage the combat rules. They could move into Aggressor's hex (as noted above), dive for cover if need be, or make use of the Hurry maneuver to go first and hopefully force a block or dodge that will shift the tide in their favor. In fact, an opening move could be a hurried move-through in the hopes of knocking them down or forcing a dodge. Its the nature of every system that some character have an advantage over others. I would also question, short of mega-villians designed to take on entire teams, whether the designs of the characters presented are flawed. Martial artists [usually] live and die on having a DEX-SP-CV advantage. That isn't always the case, of course, but it is fairly normal.

[Doc Samson]

Re: System Gurus...help?

 

A successful Grab will place both opponents in the same Hex also.

[Alibear]

Re: System Gurus...help?

 

Seems to me the Fire guy is holding all the cards...and the MA is basically in the brown.

 

Or the MA just takes an attack and hopes for the best, if he's not stunned he clobbers the blaster

 

 

Increase the MA's dex by 4 and speed by 1 or 2 and you'll have a more balanced exciting combat.

[incrdbil]

Re: System Gurus...help?

 

yeah, when isolating an example down to just a few statisitcs it may seem hopeless, but its never just that black and white. The whole character has to be looked at. For example..perhaps the martial artist has low defenses, but enough CON not to be stunned. So, he takes one hit..but then closes in on the Fire character. One Martial Grab later, guess who now has the advantage? Or beter yet, a martial Throw, which is going to give the martial Artists the initiative advantage, and he keeps doing it.

 

Also, assuming a game where DC's and active points are fairly equal, that area effect one hex attack is not going to be as powerful as the MA's single target strikes. In a 12d6 max (60 active point) campaign, that AoE attack is only going to be 8d6. Though Martial artists focus on higher DCV's, their defenses should still be capabale of handling small attacks like that, at least for a few hits, enough time for his strong attacks to get in, and put the fire blaster on the run.

 

But sure, you put two characters into a situation where all other features are removed or balanced out, and nothing esle comes into play, there will be certain situations where one character has the edge over the other. There is no system that can make every character equally effective in every possible situation without making all characters more or less carbon copies of each other with no variety.

 

 

 

add in terrain, the potential to use skills.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: System Gurus...help?

 

Seems to me the Fire guy is holding all the cards...and the MA is basically in the brown.

 

Or the MA just takes an attack and hopes for the best, if he's not stunned he clobbers the blaster

 

 

Increase the MA's dex by 4 and speed by 1 or 2 and you'll have a more balanced exciting combat.

 

Sums up my opinion, more or less. Target, in this scenario, is simply outclassed; typically, a Martial Artist will be faster, in terms of DEX and SPD, than a blaster. This probably makes the Aggressor a 'team villain'; someone who wipes individual PCs if fought one-on-one, but makes a decent fight for a group.

 

So what Target needs is teammates!

[Comic]

Re: System Gurus...help?

 

I've seen a lot more cases of martial artists one-punching energy blasters than the other way around.

 

For your high-Dex Aggressor to have a high damage AoE attack means either the AP caps are wonky, or Aggressor will run out of END fairly soon. It costs 1 END/phase to DFC, and Martial artists generally get at least 6 Phases/Turn.

 

Supposing the AP caps are 75. AoE 1 Hex +1/4. DC 12 EB, costs 7 END/Phase. 42 END/Turn, and even on an open plain your martial artist will wear down Aggressor fairly fast, worrying only about missing his DFC and recovering 6 END/Turn.

 

Same 75 AP cap. AoE 1 Hex, 1/2 END. DC 10 EB, cost 3 END/Phase. This gives Aggressor better odds. Does Aggressor have flight or force field that cost END? Up to 5 END/Phase, minimum. Sure, the MA has a chance of failing DFC, but there's a good chance Aggressor will tire before the MA flubs.

 

Same cap, 0 END EB.. comes to about 8 DC's. I'm thinking in a 75 AP game, the MA should have at least enough ED, CON and STUN to take one average 8 DC hit.

 

And that's all without making use of cover, stealth, or tactics.

 

But yes, high initiative, plus SPD, and high damage AoE attacks is a potent mix.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: System Gurus...help?

 

Also remember that DFC means that Target is PRONE -- disoriented, etc. -- until his next phase comes around. This means that Target cannot continually DFC ad infinitum, unless the GM is amazingly generous.

 

From the Target's POV, he'd best actually get behind something, forcing the Attacker to maneuver first, or close with the Attacker, disabling the Attacker's ability to use the AoE attack without hitting himself. (This has all been said before.) Presuming that they actually know each other's capabilities, Target's wisest choice is as Von D-Man said -- he Hurries his first action, closing with the Attacker and starting things up face-to-face.

 

The truly wisest thing for the martial artist Target to do, though, would be to be able to take the Attacker's shot one way or the other, so that he doesn't HAVE to Abort to a DFC. And get a ranged attack of some sort, buddy ...

[Silbeg]

Re: System Gurus...help?

 

Gotta agree with Comic.

 

Assuming that the Aggressor is burning through END, eventually he won't be able to keep attacking. The same would be true if the Aggressor uses charges... he'll run out eventually... and the Target will then be free to kick booty.

 

Assuming that both the Target and the Aggressor realize this, they'll probably want to shift tactics. The Target is playing a waiting game... waiting for the Aggressor to screw up. He actually holds the cards in this fight.

 

As already mentioned, the Target can wait out the Aggressor's END, or DFC towards the Aggressor (until he eventually is in the same hex as the Aggressor). He could also DFC away towards cover, perhaps escaping (if that is his goal). Finally, he could also use a hurry maneuver, and perhaps get the drop on the Aggressor (most likely this would happen if he has moved himself close to the Aggressor, and is ready to lay the thwack! down).

 

So, if I were the Target, I wouldn't be worried... unless I miss a DEX roll, that is.

[Netzilla]

Re: System Gurus...help?

 

Also remember that DFC means that Target is PRONE -- disoriented' date=' etc. -- until his next phase comes around. This means that Target cannot continually DFC ad infinitum, unless the GM is amazingly generous.[/quote']

 

Actually, you can use Breakfall to stand back up as a 0-phase action. The gray area comes in weather or not you can do that as part of aborting to Dive for Cover from a prone position. The Combat Handbook suggests allowing this as an optional rule. Personally, I find it to be a perfectly reasonable suggestion.

 

Likewise, being prone does not automatically make it impossible for one to move. It's certainly reasonable to assess penalties to both movement and DEX Rolls for being prone, but the Target only has to be able to move 1 Hex to successfully avoid the attack.

[Outsider]

Re: System Gurus...help?

 

Does Martial Artist have Flying Dodge? A mere 4 points, and now he can't fail a DFC roll (because he doesnt make make them.. Flying Dodge always works!), can abort to movement up to his full move, and isnt prone at the end of it.

 

 

That aside, I too wonder just how out-of-whack the target's defenses & characteristics are that an advantaged attack does enough damage to one shot him...

 

 

 

PS : Comic : where are you getting +1/4 AoE hex? My rulebook says AoE Hex is a 1/2 advantage. Unless its non-selective, but then tha target gets to use his DCV vs the second to hit roll, right?

[Comic]

Re: System Gurus...help?

 

PS : Comic : where are you getting +1/4 AoE hex? My rulebook says AoE Hex is a 1/2 advantage. Unless its non-selective' date=' but then tha target gets to use his DCV vs the second to hit roll, right?[/quote']

 

I stand corrected.

 

Shift the DC's for Aggressor down appropriately.

 

Worst case for Target, assuming horrible character design, lack of Flying Dodge, GM using the standard restrictions for Prone (Disoriented? A MA?) on a Martial Artist, this is still a fight, not a certain victory, for Aggressor.

[jtelson]

Re: System Gurus...help?

 

Does Martial Artist have Flying Dodge? A mere 4 points, and now he can't fail a DFC roll (because he doesnt make make them.. Flying Dodge always works!), can abort to movement up to his full move, and isnt prone at the end of it.

 

 

That aside, I too wonder just how out-of-whack the target's defenses & characteristics are that an advantaged attack does enough damage to one shot him...

 

I'm presuming that the original poster is a new/returned player and so may not have access to The Ultimate Martial Artist, even if he did Flying Dodge is one of those maneauvers that a chunk of GM's disallow (It is controversial). Coupling that with the Ultimate series being optional to begin with it's not safe to assume the maneauver would be available.

 

If we're talking about the EP being a moderately more powerful villian nothing needs to be out Out-of-Whack for this scenario to occur. This is a classic example of a situation where the player needs to use the environment, rely on teammates, or flee to fight another day.

[pinecone]

Re: System Gurus...help?

 

You can always find situations where one character will have an advantage over another one. One option for the martial artist may be to leap close to the fire wielder so that both get hit by the one hex attack.

 

It may be that in an open plain that the energy blaster has that advantage and that the martial artist has no winning options. A brick, once he has grabbed a martial artist is in a similar winning situation.

 

In most circumstances, the martial artist will be in a location where he may force the energy blaster to waste a phase moving and look for some way to get a hit in.

 

One of my messages to players when coming to the game is that the straight up fight is rarely the way to solve a problem - in this case the martial artist is going to have to look for ways to get round the built in advantage of this particular situation.

 

As GM I would expect the martial artist to have breakfall and allow him to continually dive for cover, if that is all that it is going to take, allow him to try and wear the energy blaster out, or manouevre to somewhere that the energy blasters advantage is no longer as overwhelming, where some of the martial artists other skills might come into play...or even to call for help from some friends.

 

 

Doc

 

Yeah, I don't see the abuse....Chuck Norris vs a flame thrower....So find a new way to win...say get out of sight, and ambush?

[SteveZilla]

Re: System Gurus...help?

 

Does Martial Artist have Flying Dodge? A mere 4 points' date=' and now he can't fail a DFC roll (because he doesnt make make them.. Flying Dodge always works!), can abort to movement up to his full move, and isnt prone at the end of it.[/quote']

 

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that maneuvers like Flying Dodge, that include non-defenseive elements (like movement) along with the Abort element, don't get to abort to a full move. They can perform a full-move-and-dodge regularly, gaining the DCV bonuses and movement the maneuver entails... Or they can abort to the Dodge, but at the expense of the movement element.

 

Otherwise you could have a duplicating martial artists with a ranged attack and Flying Dodge (go with me here ) effectively getting double their movement *and* the DCV bonuses by the duplicates attacking each other.

 

EDIT: I am in error. This Q/A clearly states that ehen aborting to a Flying Dodge, the dodger *does* get the movement element in the maneuver.

 

And this Q/A shows that it would make the AoE attack an automatic miss (if the dodger moved outside the area being attacked).

[SteveZilla]

Re: System Gurus...help?

 

Yeah' date=' I don't see the abuse....Chuck Norris vs a flame thrower....So find a new way to win...say get out of sight, and ambush?[/quote']

 

 

Chuck Norris would punch the flames until they were out cold. Chuck Norris wins every time. And he'll find you. (Go to Google, type in "find: Chuck Norris", and hit "I'm Feeling Lucky".)

 

[Outsider]

Re: System Gurus...help?

 

 

EDIT: I am in error. This Q/A clearly states that ehen aborting to a Flying Dodge, the dodger *does* get the movement element in the maneuver.

 

And this Q/A shows that it would make the AoE attack an automatic miss (if the dodger moved outside the area being attacked).

 

 

Both rulings I really disagree with, but hey, they're official. All I can do is house rule reverse them.

[Vondy]

Re: System Gurus...help?

 

Both rulings I really disagree with' date=' but hey, they're official. All I can do is house rule reverse them.[/quote']

 

 

I don't even think it requires a house rule.

 

Just tell your players: I don't make use of the FAQ.

[pinecone]

Re: System Gurus...help?

 

Chuck Norris would punch the flames until they were out cold. Chuck Norris wins every time. And he'll find you. (Go to Google, type in "find: Chuck Norris", and hit "I'm Feeling Lucky".)

 

Chuck Norris is Bad I agree....but he's no Billie Jack!

[jtelson]

Re: System Gurus...help?

 

Both rulings I really disagree with' date=' but hey, they're official. All I can do is house rule reverse them.[/quote']

 

I'd just disallow Flying Dodge, it's optional anyway. Resolves FAQ issues nicely.

[Silbeg]

Re: System Gurus...help?

 

EDIT: I am in error. This Q/A clearly states that ehen aborting to a Flying Dodge, the dodger *does* get the movement element in the maneuver.

 

And this Q/A shows that it would make the AoE attack an automatic miss (if the dodger moved outside the area being attacked).

 

This is something that we have "house ruled" in my game, as it seems to be an abusive maneuver. Flying Dodge is unique in the HERO System, as it allows you to abort to movement.

 

http://wiki.silbeg.com/index.php?title=House_rules#Flying_Dodge

 

Basically, we still allow the movement to happen, but after the attack has taken place. This seemed to be a good compromise.

 

Otherwise, Flying Dodge is the best 4 points that you can spend on any character.

[SteveZilla]

Re: System Gurus...help?

 

This is something that we have "house ruled" in my game, as it seems to be an abusive maneuver. Flying Dodge is unique in the HERO System, as it allows you to abort to movement.

 

http://wiki.silbeg.com/index.php?title=House_rules#Flying_Dodge

 

Basically, we still allow the movement to happen, but after the attack has taken place. This seemed to be a good compromise.

 

Otherwise, Flying Dodge is the best 4 points that you can spend on any character.

 

I think it's worth much more than 4 points. Conciser this:

 

Character buys Flying Dodge.

Character buys AoE Attack Power Linked to Running.

 

Now all he has to do is do a Flying Dodge *past* a target and they take damage. Personally, I'd ban Flying Dodge and say "You want to be able to be dodging *while* you move? Fine. Buy 4 DCV skill levels and link them to your movement."

 

Some FAQ's on Flying Dodge (the new 500 lb gorilla?) using my summation as the link name:

 

FD doesn't guarantee a miss.

 

FMove doesn't prevent getting hit by non-AoE attacks.

 

Range Mod = Distance at end of FMove.

 

Knockback moves the character from the ending hex of the FMove.

 

Flying Dodge can be found on: p9 of UMA, and in the Hero System Combat Handbook.

 

Running, Swimming, Flight, Leaping, Swinging, Gliding(?) and I guess even Tunneling can be used with Flying Dodge (thought that last one really has me scratching my head). But none of those are found in the "Defensive Powers" section of 5ER.

[JmOz]

Re: System Gurus...help?

 

All of chuck noriris is desolid with all of his attacks effect solid

 

What is the one thing that desolid requires to be able to hurt chuck

 

 

 

 

Bruce Lee

 

 

[JmOz]

Re: System Gurus...help?

 

This is something that we have "house ruled" in my game, as it seems to be an abusive maneuver. Flying Dodge is unique in the HERO System, as it allows you to abort to movement.

 

http://wiki.silbeg.com/index.php?title=House_rules#Flying_Dodge

 

Basically, we still allow the movement to happen, but after the attack has taken place. This seemed to be a good compromise.

 

Otherwise, Flying Dodge is the best 4 points that you can spend on any character.

 

My house rule is you can abort to the move, to get the +4, but you don't get the move element...