Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

[archermoo]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

The problem with that is if you know exactly what the problems are going to be why playtest it. I use the figures as the finals in most stats for most characters. It doesn't take playtesting to know that without figures at the very minimum I'd be having to make up and reference some chart to make things connect correctly again.

Like paragon, The decoupling destroys one of the basic great interconnections that makes character generation just so right. Losing it annoys me on a really fundamental level.

The best I can come is trying to make characters without using it and it IS way more of a pain in the neck. you have one more thing to figure out to get to a proper baseline. its like every bloody character is a special case or you get people modeled incorrectly by Brute man having the same durability as Aunt MAY. ( ICK!)

Way too much of fixing things that aren't broken in these discussions.

 

Understood, and reasonable. For me, I make up characters by determining what I was all of the stats to be, rather than letting the system decide for me. So Figureds being coupled to Primaries doesn't save me anything, as I'm already making a determination for each one as to what I want them to be. For me all Figureds do is make the determination of cost more difficult, especially if I'm playing around with the values of my Characteristics. Rather than just determining the cost of each characteristic by itself I have to take into account how changing one has an effect on another. Annoying and pointless to me. Decoupling Figureds removes that extra unnecessary complication.

 

It would be easy to keep the current figured formulas and use them as suggested starting points for those that rely on them. The only other thing that would be effected would be cost, which as far as I'm concerned is an entirely different discussion, and one I don't have any interest in. Steve is a highly skilled game designer with a lot of Hero experience under his belt. I have no doubt that he'll be able to handle any point cost issues that decoupling figureds will create.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

 

It would be easy to keep the current figured formulas and use them as suggested starting points for those that rely on them.

 

Not a bad idea there. Maybe not ideal but not a bad compromise.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

I'm in the ironic position of having very few things Steve's indicated as likely changes that bother me' date=' and several I think are quite good ideas--but one of the very few (the decoupled figureds) bother me enough that I probably would be done over it. Go figure.[/quote']

 

Pretty much describes me, Characteristics are the only area in the 6th proposed changes that made me go, ugh, no thank you.

 

I feel the proposed COM is change without reason, easily fixed by giving COM a more solid description but I'd live if it became a perk, however decoupled figureds make me lose interest in 6th. I find figureds to be a very helpful tool and they are a distinctive difference from HERO's competition GURPS, one of the things that tips me towards HERO.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

A deal breaker? That it's going to become in essence "City of Heroes: The Roleplaying Game" - a mere appendage to the potentially vastly more profitable online end of the business.

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

A deal breaker? That it's going to become in essence "City of Heroes: The Roleplaying Game" - a mere appendage to the potentially vastly more profitable online end of the business.

Amen. Repped.

[Sir Ofeelya]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Perhaps I came to this whole thing too late but what the hell is wrong with 5th edition? I have been using 4th edition since 1990 and only just today brought 5th edition. Is there a need to change things again?

[Alibear]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Not a need exactly but Steve wants to improve the game.

 

Whether the improvements proposed are to everyone's taste is the whole point of this and many other threads.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

All right. What are they? I'm asking you' date=' tell me what those impacts are. However, until you've actually playtested the thing, [b']your opinions are just that, opinions[/b], and meaningless without data.

 

So your view, then, is that he should buy a game which he feels will not be to his liking so he can try the changes he thinks will not be to his liking. I note that we can't playtest it today - we don't actually know what the rules are. Neither can we reasonably playtest it without purchasing the new edition.

 

Chirs, there are new RPG's released regularly. Do you rush out and buy each and every one, then play it for six months to a year, to playtest it, or do you generally stick with the system you are happy with?

 

Have you playtested Mutants & Masterminds, Dungeons & Dragons 3.0 Ed and 3.5 Ed, the latest edition of GURPS, True20 and each other RPG system on the market? Where do you find the time?

 

Perhaps I came to this whole thing too late but what the hell is wrong with 5th edition? I have been using 4th edition since 1990 and only just today brought 5th edition. Is there a need to change things again?

 

Not a need exactly but Steve wants to improve the game.

 

Whether the improvements proposed are to everyone's taste is the whole point of this and many other threads.

 

There is, I expect, an economic issue here. The fact is that new editions sell, and new rules sell. That's the RPG money making model in today's market. Editions sell. Sourcebooks sell, but not as well. Modules don't sell enough to justify putting significant resources into them.

 

Steve has to make not only aesthetic (improve the game) decisions, but also economic (feed the employees and shareholders) decisions.

[lemming]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Perhaps I came to this whole thing too late but what the hell is wrong with 5th edition? I have been using 4th edition since 1990 and only just today brought 5th edition. Is there a need to change things again?

 

No need for you to buy the 6th edition. If it looks good, buy it, if not don't. You took long enough to buy 5th.

 

Hero is just working with 6th and putting in changes they think are wanted or needed. And they're accepting input.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

So your view' date=' then, is that he should buy a game which he feels will not be to his liking so he can try the changes he thinks will not be to his liking. I note that we can't playtest it today - we don't actually know what the rules are. Neither can we reasonably playtest it without purchasing the new edition.[/quote']

 

One can very easily playtest decoupling figured characteristics. One can build a character with figured characteristics decoupled. One can make whatever assumptions one likes about the stat block; the clues are there in the thread. I plan to do this myself when I have time.

 

Chirs, there are new RPG's released regularly. Do you rush out and buy each and every one, then play it for six months to a year, to playtest it, or do you generally stick with the system you are happy with?

 

Have you playtested Mutants & Masterminds, Dungeons & Dragons 3.0 Ed and 3.5 Ed, the latest edition of GURPS, True20 and each other RPG system on the market? Where do you find the time?

 

No, I don't, and I haven't. I also don't express opinions about them.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

No, I don't, and I haven't. I also don't express opinions about them.

 

Well, as the entire point of this thread is to express opinion about a game that isn't out yet, and can't play yet that particular point of detail does seem a bit moot in this discussion.

 

If you don't want to listen to people say that they don't like the idea of something upcoming, because they feel they won't like it by reading description (rather than playing it), which is the point of the thread after all, then..........

[archermoo]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Not a bad idea there. Maybe not ideal but not a bad compromise.

 

The best part is that it doesn't even require that the formula get written into the 6th edition rules.

[archermoo]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

A deal breaker? That it's going to become in essence "City of Heroes: The Roleplaying Game" - a mere appendage to the potentially vastly more profitable online end of the business.

 

Well, keep in mind that DoJ isn't in the online game business, and Cryptic isn't in the pen and paper RPG publishing business. The companies haven't merged; they aren't different ends of the same business. Cryptic bought the IP for Champions and Dark Champions. They didn't buy DoJ, they didn't buy the Hero System IP (though they did buy a license for it), and they didn't buy the IP for any of the other Genres. Additionally DoJ has a license in perpetuity to continue publishing RPG supplements using the Champions and Dark Champions IP.

[archermoo]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

There is, I expect, an economic issue here. The fact is that new editions sell, and new rules sell. That's the RPG money making model in today's market. Editions sell. Sourcebooks sell, but not as well. Modules don't sell enough to justify putting significant resources into them.

 

Steve has to make not only aesthetic (improve the game) decisions, but also economic (feed the employees and shareholders) decisions.

 

There is undoubtedly an economic aspect involved. DoJ is after all a business. However I think a bigger factor is that Steve initially wrote the 5th edition rules for someone else, using their guidelines. And when DoJ formed and bought the Hero IP there wasn't sufficient time to go back and rewrite everything how Darren, Steve et al would have preferred it be written. At the point where 6th edition will be coming out, 5th will have been out for more than 7 years. Longer than any other version of the rules except 4th, and the main reason it took so long for 4th to be replaced was a lack of a company willing or able to publish a new version.

[Paragon]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

There is undoubtedly an economic aspect involved. DoJ is after all a business. However I think a bigger factor is that Steve initially wrote the 5th edition rules for someone else' date=' using their guidelines. And when DoJ formed and bought the Hero IP there wasn't sufficient time to go back and rewrite everything how Darren, Steve et al would have preferred it be written. At the point where 6th edition will be coming out, 5th will have been out for more than 7 years. Longer than any other version of the rules except 4th, and the main reason it took so long for 4th to be replaced was a lack of a company willing or able to publish a new version.[/quote']

 

Yeah, honestly I have to say that six to seven years is pretty typical for edition cycle. And there's certainly an argument that Steve Long has that when he took over, 5e was already partly a fait accompli, so some things he thinks should have got done--didn't. Whether you agree with what all he wants to get done doesn't change the basic logic of that.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

The best part is that it doesn't even require that the formula get written into the 6th edition rules.

 

I'd prefer it to be though. Then again I use a number of the alternate rules he included in 5th also.

[archermoo]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

I'd prefer it to be though. The again I use a number of the alternate rules he included in 5th also.

 

I'm ambivalent on it myself. It won't really effect me either way if they are there, other than them adding a small amount of space to the book.

 

I was just pointing out that even if they don't make it into the 6th edition rules, you already have the formula in hand. Just using that as a starting point for the Characteristics that (assuming he makes the change) are no longer Figured doesn't require space in the book. You can keep doing it whether it is in the book or not. Which at least to me qualifies as a bonus.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

I'm ambivalent on it myself. It won't really effect me either way if they are there, other than them adding a small amount of space to the book.

 

I was just pointing out that even if they don't make it into the 6th edition rules, you already have the formula in hand. Just using that as a starting point for the Characteristics that (assuming he makes the change) are no longer Figured doesn't require space in the book. You can keep doing it whether it is in the book or not. Which at least to me qualifies as a bonus.

 

Actually what I was pointing out was I like the inclusion of the alternate approaches in the book as I use several of them myself. I think it was a great idea.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

One can very easily playtest decoupling figured characteristics. One can build a character with figured characteristics decoupled. One can make whatever assumptions one likes about the stat block; the clues are there in the thread. I plan to do this myself when I have time.

 

One can very easily look to the start of the characteristics thread and realize the point disparity. I've suggested several times that evaluating "figured's are gone" is as simple as taking a group one feels is reasonably balanced, making them pay on the basis that they got no figured's and giving them all the same bonus points (be it 0, so you must sell things back, or the average loss, so some buy and some sell, or the highest number of added points so all but one can buy new things). But that assumes that:

 

- the base level for these stats will remain where it always has been.

- the price of the primary stats will be unchanged.

- no ancillary changes will be made (a lot of people have pointed to reducing the discounts for certain frameworks, or allowing characteristics in frameworks, for example)

 

You can't playtest it until you know what the new rules will be. You can only anticipate - and playtest your opinion of what those rules will or might be.

 

There is undoubtedly an economic aspect involved. DoJ is after all a business. However I think a bigger factor is that Steve initially wrote the 5th edition rules for someone else' date=' using their guidelines. And when DoJ formed and bought the Hero IP there wasn't sufficient time to go back and rewrite everything how Darren, Steve et al would have preferred it be written. At the point where 6th edition will be coming out, 5th will have been out for more than 7 years. Longer than any other version of the rules except 4th, and the main reason it took so long for 4th to be replaced was a lack of a company willing or able to publish a new version.[/quote']

 

To clarify, I believe there is an economic aspect. However, I do not believe the fact that this is economically motivated makes it somehow bad, wrong or immoral. Our economy is based on the concept that, if Steve writes something we want, we pay him for it. New editions sell. Steve and DoJ need to publish books that sell. If they don't, DoJ and Hero won't be around at all.

[archermoo]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

To clarify' date=' I believe there is an economic aspect. However, I do not believe the fact that this is economically motivated makes it somehow bad, wrong or immoral. Our economy is based on the concept that, if Steve writes something we want, we pay him for it. New editions sell. Steve and DoJ need to publish books that sell. If they don't, DoJ and Hero won't be around at all.[/quote']

 

Oh I'll guarantee that there is an economic aspect to it. It certainly isn't the ONLY aspect, but it is without a doubt there.

 

I would also agee that it would be silly to accuse a business that took economic factors into account in their decisions of being bad, wrong or immoral. I'd be more tempted to say that a business that DIDN'T take economic factors into account is bad, wrong or immoral. Though I'd also say that those descriptions would apply to a business that ONLY took economic factors into account.

[Alibear]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Wise you are, hairy sneezeman.