Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

[nexus]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Edit: Not my place to speak for Paragon

[Paragon]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Name one?

 

 

Though not to the same extent, M&M's disconnect of Dexterity from combat capability comes to immediate mind.

 

 

 

But everything you have to say about is based on not trying it. If you tried it, sure, you might still not like it, but then you'd have a basis from which to convince Steve. You could say, "I've tried it, and here's why it doesn't work." At the moment, you're saying "I won't like it, I know I won't, even though I haven't tried it."

 

 

The problem is that it doesn't work for me on a sufficiently basic grounds that I don't think its possible to explain why; certainly playing it won't change that, because as I said, its a fundamental conceptual level. It simply disconnects things I think should be connected.

 

Let me give a broad analogy: you could have a system where your primary unarmed damage bonus was based on Appearance. In the end, it wouldn't matter how much or little this really mattered in play, the basic idea would put me off. The same is true here.

 

I can't and won't speak for Steve, but if I were in his position, I'd put a lot more stock in statements from people who have tried it and found it wanting, than from a hundred yahoos on either side who haven't. (I say this as one of those yahoos, but then I'm not in the position of trying to change his mind.)

 

I don't actually expect Steve to change his position on this, so that's pretty much a nonstarter. I don't actually expect anyone who doesn't have a problem with this from the outset to have their mind changed, because I think this is a fundamental enough issue that it either bothers you or it doesn't.

[Paragon]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

not to be harsh, but honestly, I can't think of any faster way to having ones input disregarded than saying this.

 

 

 

.....except maybe that.

 

As noted, I don't expect my input on this matter to have any impact. It doesn't change my feelings about it, but there's no connection between the two; my ability to express why I have a problem with it, and my having a problem with it have no relationship.

 

That's why in the latter parts of the Characteristics thread I've limited my comments to appropriate costs of characterstics with or without decoupling, rather than about the decoupling itself; I think feelings about the latter are such a vast gulf that there's literally no point in arguing about them.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

The problem with that is if you know exactly what the problems are going to be why playtest it. I use the figures as the finals in most stats for most characters. It doesn't take playtesting to know that without figures at the very minimum I'd be having to make up and reference some chart to make things connect correctly again.

Like paragon, The decoupling destroys one of the basic great interconnections that makes character generation just so right. Losing it annoys me on a really fundamental level.

The best I can come is trying to make characters without using it and it IS way more of a pain in the neck. you have one more thing to figure out to get to a proper baseline. its like every bloody character is a special case or you get people modeled incorrectly by Brute man having the same durability as Aunt MAY. ( ICK!)

Way too much of fixing things that aren't broken in these discussions.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

I think you can make a reasonable assessment about a personal taste issue without trying it first. There are several things I know wouldn't like without experiencing them. Decoupling figured characteristics is going to have several impacts on character generation. For some these are a positive, for other they are a negative and most of them are fairly obvious.

 

It sounds like Paragon just doesn't like the concept in and of itself. It's like not like certain flavors of food, a matter of taste.

 

I know for a fact that there were similar issues between 3e and 4e that very nearly had me giving up the system. Until I gave them a chance and, y'know, tried them.

 

Decoupling figured characteristics is going to have several impacts on character generation.

 

All right. What are they? I'm asking you, tell me what those impacts are. However, until you've actually playtested the thing, your opinions are just that, opinions, and meaningless without data.

 

If you can't tell me, yes, I have tried them, and they don't work, and here's why, your opinions on the issue don't mean diddly. They're uninformed, armchair judgements without one speck of experience. Why in the world should I give them any credence? They're no better or worse than anyone else's uninformed opinions.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

 

 

 

All right. What are they? I'm asking you, tell me what those impacts are. However, until you've actually playtested the thing, your opinions are just that, opinions, and meaningless without data.

 

If you can't tell me, yes, I have tried them, and they don't work, and here's why, your opinions on the issue don't mean diddly. They're uninformed, armchair judgements without one speck of experience. Why in the world should I give them any credence? They're no better or worse than anyone else's uninformed opinions.

 

 

That's nonsense if it creates an extra step and requires an extra judgment call it makes a difference. By that logic no one could ever figure anything out using their intellect.

[Paragon]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

If you can't tell me' date=' yes, I have tried them, and they don't work, and here's why, your opinions on the issue don't mean diddly. They're uninformed, armchair judgements without one speck of experience. Why in the world should I give them any credence? They're no better or worse than anyone else's uninformed opinions.[/quote']

 

This assumes that I expect anyone to give them credence. As noted, I really don't. That just means I'm fatalistic about the issue.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

That's nonsense if it creates an extra step and requires an extra judgment call it makes a difference. By that logic no one could ever figure anything out using their intellect.

 

People figure things out using their intellect all the time. Until they actually try them, however, they're called "guesses" or "opinions".

[CTaylor]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

I should think it's obvious that if some stats don't affect figured characteristics that will change how they are purchased, if figured characteristics are stand alone, costs for all stats will have to be changed, and possibly the entire process will become more expensive.

 

All of this objectively has impacts on character creation. Come on Chris, he's not postulating the unknowable here.

[nexus]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

I know for a fact that there were similar issues between 3e and 4e that very nearly had me giving up the system. Until I gave them a chance and, y'know, tried them.

 

That's all well and good. That doesn't mean all changes are like that. For example, I don't like Level based systems. I just don't, it's not logical there is not objectively wrong with them I simply don't like that. No implementation is going to suddenly make me reverse my that feeling. I don't have to play test a level based to system to avoid it.

 

Yes, they're opinions. When have I claimed otherwise? I don't think my opinions are objective facts but they are mine. They might be "meaningless" to you but they're not to me.

 

There is no objective "data" about taste. I don't licorice, it makes nauseous just to smell it. I don't have to eat licorice flavored ice cream to know I won't like it.

 

If you can't tell me, yes, I have tried them, and they don't work, and here's why, your opinions on the issue don't mean diddly. They're uninformed, armchair judgments without one speck of experience. Why in the world should I give them any credence? They're no better or worse than anyone else's uninformed opinions.

 

You're being unnecessarily obnoxious. We're talking about a game here not religion, morality or even politics so I'll ask you to please refrain being quite so insulting in the future. I've edited my response accordingly.

 

I'll put this as simply as I can.

 

I didn't say the idea doesn't work I said I don't LIKE it. There is a difference.

 

Conceptually, thematically and what it will require as far as character generation goes. Yes there will be additional steps added for me especially when it comes to Heroic characters where I normally leave figured pretty much alone.

 

You might find it to be a feature but I find it to be a bug. Objectively, it's a change, that's it but sense I do not care for that change it will be a reason for me not to invest money in 6th Edition.

 

There isn't any reason you should give my feelings on the matter any credence but I'm not trying to convince you of anything. It would foolish to try as it would be for you to try and "convince" me to eat licorice.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

People figure things out using their intellect all the time. Until they actually try them' date=' however, they're called "guesses" or "opinions".[/quote']

 

Not if it proposed method is more complicated without gain or gives less product for the effort or excludes useful information the other gives which all is relevant here.

 

Well we fundamentally disagree here. I think that knowing it takes extra steps and not having an automatic template is worse. I did frustrate my self by making up a few characters but it just confirmed what I knew.

I completely agree with Paragon here. If you saw a combat system basing the "to hit" on appearance and maybe the damage on seduction skill I guess you'd have to try it from your position.

I don't expect to change anyone's mind but I would prefer a less condescending attitude here.

[Vondy]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Personally, I'm generally against anything that leads to point bloat. I like the figured characteristics. I will be using them even if 6th edition makes them straight buys with no derivations. I already have the formulas and point totals. Its literally two minutes worth of work to put them back in. Thus, it doesn't constitute a deal breaker.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

I should think it's obvious that if some stats don't affect figured characteristics that will change how they are purchased' date=' if figured characteristics are stand alone, costs for all stats will have to be changed, and possibly the entire process will become more expensive.[/quote']

 

You should think it's obvious. Possibly the process will become more expensive. You haven't tried it, and that's my point. You're stating it as if it were a fact, and it's not.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

There is no objective "data" about taste. I don't licorice' date=' it makes nauseous just to smell it. I don't have to eat licorice flavored ice cream to know I won't like it. [/quote']

 

That is a reasonable statement. You have experience with not liking licorice.

 

There isn't any reason you should give my feelings on the matter any credence but I'm not trying to convince you of anything. It would foolish to try as it would be for you to try and "convince" me to eat licorice.

 

I'm not trying to convince you to try something you've had experience with. I'm trying to convince you to try something you haven't had experience with, and to refrain from making statements about how bad it will be if you haven't tried it.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

If you saw a combat system basing the "to hit" on appearance and maybe the damage on seduction skill I guess you'd have to try it from your position.

 

If I were going to make statements that it were the best thing ever, or that it were the worst thing ever, I would damned well make sure I've tried it first.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

If I were going to make statements that it were the best thing ever' date=' or that it were the worst thing ever, I would damned well make sure I've tried it first.[/quote']

 

 

I'll not be the one to bail you out for the drug charges then. Cheers, I think we're done here. All we're doing is getting on each others nerves.

[Paragon]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Personally' date=' I'm generally against anything that leads to point bloat. I like the figured characteristics. I will be using them even if 6th edition makes them straight buys with no derivations. I already have the formulas and point totals. Its literally two minutes worth of work to put them back in. Thus, it doesn't constitute a deal breaker.[/quote']

 

I think the loss of potential use of too much published material that would be ignoring them is enough of an off-putting process for me that I can't be so blaise.

[Paragon]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

If I were going to make statements that it were the best thing ever' date=' or that it were the worst thing ever, I would damned well make sure I've tried it first.[/quote']

 

I don't think I made such a statement. Saying something is a dealbreaker for me says nothing whatsoever about its general application. I can have opinions about the latter, but they can't be anything but opinions.

 

I can, however, say that its essentially impossible for someone to truly decouple anything like the current figured characteristic set from the base set and have me like it, because the very concept puts me off, and no execution is going to fix that.

 

Maybe you go through your life trying things you have every reason to expect you'll dislike, Chris, but bluntly, I have better things to do with my time. If I have an overwhelming reason to believe I won't like it (as compared to just being dubious) I don't bother. If that annoys you, honestly, that's your problem far as I'm concerned.

[Kenn]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

I have experience building characters in the Hero System, and the Figured Characteristics have been a valuable tool to me.

 

I have experience at learning new systems; I know how long they take me to learn.

 

I have experience at performing mathematics; I know how well I do things that involve math. (Or as my Mom put it "We won't tell Dad how long it took you to do your taxes.")

 

This proposed change, to lose figured characteristics, I do not need to try to know I won't like it. I know that under the new system, something I am familiar with and that favours one of my strengths will be missing. I know that a new system will take time to learn, I will not be familiar with it, and it is extremely unlikely that it will be as easy for ME to use as basic mathematics.

 

It doesn't take experience to know that replacing "Familiar, Useful, and Simple" with "New, Different, and Complex" isn't going to sit well with me.

[nexus]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

I'm not trying to convince you to try something you've had experience with. I'm trying to convince you to try something you haven't had experience with, and to refrain from making statements about how bad it will be if you haven't tried it.

 

Actually, I've never eaten licorice I don't like the smell. Many people love licorice; because I say I don't like it doesn't equate to me declaring it the worst thing EVAR.

 

But it does mean I'm not willingly going to buy licorice flavored anything.

 

I haven't said how bad it will except for me. I don't like it. Someone else might love it. There is no objective statement here. You don't have to try every experience or way of doing something to extrapolate that it's not to your taste. As a gamer I do this every day when I go my FLGS, browse the shelves, look over rule sets and setting and decide if i want them or not. I can't speak for anyone else but I haven't said it "the best or worse thing ever" just that it is not for me.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Maybe you go through your life trying things you have every reason to expect you'll dislike' date=' Chris, but bluntly, I have better things to do with my time.[/quote']

 

I make it a practice to avoid making statements about things I have no experience with. If I care enough about something to make a statement about it, I'll try it first.

 

I've never tried durian fruit. I've heard from many people that it smells rank but tastes like heaven. Great. I'm not going to tell people I don't like durian fruit. I'll generally avoid discussions about it.

 

There are many things I think I might dislike, without actually having tried them. I don't pretend that my feelings that I might dislike the thing are in any way rational. I will allow for the possibility that I might like the thing in question. If I'm in a position to try the thing, then I might give it a try, assuming no opportunity cost. Above all, I'll avoid expressing an opinion on the thing without first having tried it.

[Paragon]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

I make it a practice to avoid making statements about things I have no experience with. If I care enough about something to make a statement about it, I'll try it first.

 

 

Whereas I'm quite comfortable extrapolating from the similar in regard to evaluating my tastes, and will not hesitate to do so.

 

I think we're all clear on our positions now.

[CTaylor]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Possibly the process will become more expensive. You haven't tried it, and that's my point. You're stating it as if it were a fact

 

No I stated it in plain English very clearly and obviously as a postulate, you even quoted the statement before you said this: "and possibly the entire process will become more expensive."

 

That's not a statement of fact in any sane portion of the world, it is obviously and inescapably a statement of speculation. As in not factual.

[lemming]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Hmm: Deal Breakers for me.

 

The sacrifice of puppies and kittens for every book published. I think that would stop me from buying a copy.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

No I stated it in plain English very clearly and obviously as a postulate, you even quoted the statement before you said this: "and possibly the entire process will become more expensive."

 

That's not a statement of fact in any sane portion of the world, it is obviously and inescapably a statement of speculation. As in not factual.

 

You are correct. I withdraw my statement that you were stating it as fact.