House rules for held actions - gap between start of segment and character's DEX

[Jfry]

[copied over here after I accidentally posted in the 6E forums]

 

On 5E (not Revised) p235 I see "A character may Hold his Action until a later DEX in one of his Phases or until a later Segment. However, he can never use a Held Action to take two Actions in one Segment - he loses any Held Action when the next Segment in which he has a Phase begins, because he can only have one Phase at a time."

 

Then in the example I see "...He can't even use it in Segment 3 before DEX 23 comes up - he loses it as soon as Segment 3 begins."

 

This together seems to point pretty strongly toward an unavoidable period when one can never be ready to react - on the Segments of my Phases, before my DEX comes up. So for example:

Frog has SPD 2, DEX 18

Toad has SPD 4, DEX 18

Heron has SPD 4, DEX 20

 

Seg 12, on DEX 20, Heron does a move-by on Frog and Toad, swooping out of their reach. On DEX 18, Frog and Toad choose to hold their actions in the hopes of bopping Heron on his next swoop.

Seg 3, On DEX 20, Heron swoops again. Toad has an action coming this phase, so he loses his held action and can't react. Frog (ever grateful for his lower SPD) doesn't have an action this phase, and so IS able to swing.

 

If I understand this right, Toad will never be able to react to Heron swooping at him, since they have the same SPD and Toad's DEX is lower...unless perhaps Toad voluntarily reduces his SPD for a while.

 

First I should ask, am I missing something in the rules?

 

Second (if I'm not) have y'all house-ruled this one?

 

I really like that there's no way to manipulate holding actions to act twice in a phase...but it makes sense to be that Toad would have some way to anticipate and react to Heron...and especially that Toad would be at least as well off as his slower brother Frog.

 

I'm leaning toward the following modification:

 

"A character may Hold his Action until a later DEX in one of his Phases or until a later Segment. However, he can never use a Held Action to take two Actions in one Segment - IF HE HOLDS AN ACTION INTO HIS NEXT PHASE, THE HELD ACTION REPLACES THE ACTION HE WOULD HAVE HAD FOR THAT PHASE, because he can only have one Phase at a time."

 

Whaddaya think?

[Vondy]

Re: House rules for held actions - gap between start of segment and character's DEX

 

[copied over here after I accidentally posted in the 6E forums]

 

On 5E (not Revised) p235 I see "A character may Hold his Action until a later DEX in one of his Phases or until a later Segment. However, he can never use a Held Action to take two Actions in one Segment - he loses any Held Action when the next Segment in which he has a Phase begins, because he can only have one Phase at a time."

 

Then in the example I see "...He can't even use it in Segment 3 before DEX 23 comes up - he loses it as soon as Segment 3 begins."

 

This together seems to point pretty strongly toward an unavoidable period when one can never be ready to react - on the Segments of my Phases, before my DEX comes up. So for example:

Frog has SPD 2, DEX 18

Toad has SPD 4, DEX 18

Heron has SPD 4, DEX 20

 

Seg 12, on DEX 20, Heron does a move-by on Frog and Toad, swooping out of their reach. On DEX 18, Frog and Toad choose to hold their actions in the hopes of bopping Heron on his next swoop.

Seg 3, On DEX 20, Heron swoops again. Toad has an action coming this phase, so he loses his held action and can't react. Frog (ever grateful for his lower SPD) doesn't have an action this phase, and so IS able to swing.

 

If I understand this right, Toad will never be able to react to Heron swooping at him, since they have the same SPD and Toad's DEX is lower...unless perhaps Toad voluntarily reduces his SPD for a while.

 

First I should ask, am I missing something in the rules?

 

Second (if I'm not) have y'all house-ruled this one?

 

I really like that there's no way to manipulate holding actions to act twice in a phase...but it makes sense to be that Toad would have some way to anticipate and react to Heron...and especially that Toad would be at least as well off as his slower brother Frog.

 

I'm leaning toward the following modification:

 

"A character may Hold his Action until a later DEX in one of his Phases or until a later Segment. However, he can never use a Held Action to take two Actions in one Segment - IF HE HOLDS AN ACTION INTO HIS NEXT PHASE, THE HELD ACTION REPLACES THE ACTION HE WOULD HAVE HAD FOR THAT PHASE, because he can only have one Phase at a time."

 

Whaddaya think?

 

I think its a tactical trade-off, not a mechanical problem. On the one hand he loses his upcoming action; on the other hand he can use his held action to go on the DEX of his choice. Thus, he can choose to act on DEX 20 and take a swipe at Heron before he flies away again.

[Jfry]

Re: House rules for held actions - gap between start of segment and character's DEX

 

I think its a tactical trade-off' date=' not a mechanical problem. On the one hand he loses his upcoming action; on the other hand he can use his held action to go on the DEX of his choice. Thus, he can choose to act on DEX 20 and take a swipe at Heron before he flies away again.[/quote']

 

Hey Von, thanks for the reply. I think I may be misunderstanding you. Are you saying that the rules as stated allow Toad (with DEX 18 and the same SPD as Heron) to swing at Heron before he flies away again?

 

That is how I'd like it to work, but not how I understand the rules. Here are the bits that make me think Toad can't hold-and-swing on segments when both Heron and Toad act: (emphasis added)

"A character may Hold his Action until a later DEX in one of his Phases or until a later Segment. However, he can never use a Held Action to take two Actions in one Segment - he loses any Held Action when the next Segment in which he has a Phase begins, because he can only have one Phase at a time."

 

Then in the example I see "...He can't even use it in Segment 3 before DEX 23 comes up - he loses it as soon as Segment 3 begins."

 

Am I interpreting this incorrectly? If so, can you point to some text that would clarify the misunderstanding?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: House rules for held actions - gap between start of segment and character's DEX

 

This was addressed in 5er

360 ■ Combat And Adventuring Hero System 5th Edition, Revised

 

A character may Hold his Action until a later DEX in one of his Phases or until a later Segment. However, he can never use a Held Action to take two Actions in one Segment — he loses any Held Action when the next Segment in which he has a Phase begins, because he can only have one Phase at a time. (The GM may, if he wishes, let a character Hold his Action until his next Phase begins, but if he chooses to use the Held Action before his Phase occurs, it takes the place of his Phase — he cannot have two Phases in the same Segment.) A character who waits a whole Turn without taking an Action still has only one Phase saved.

 

This is also covered in the 5E Rules FAQ

from:

http://www.herogames.com/rulesFAQ.htm?ruleset=Hero+System+Fifth+Edition&section=&keywords=holding&dateString=

 

On 5E 235, the text under Holding an Action indicates a Held Action is lost at the beginning of the Segment on which the character’s next Phase occurs. Thus, there’s a “null zone” between the start of that Segment and the start of the character’s Phase (which begins on his DEX in that Segment). So, if HeroMan is fighting The Evil Moustache (who has the same SPD and a higher DEX than HeroMan), and he wants to Holds his Action based on what ‘Stache does, how can he do that? He’ll automatically lose his Held Action when the Segment begins, leaving the ‘Stache free to act without consequence.

 

In this situation, the GM should apply some common sense and dramatic sense. If, as you describe, HeroMan wants to Hold his Action based on what The Evil Moustache does, the GM could use the Held Action to, in essence, move HeroMan “up” in the initiative order for the Phase, so that he can “go first” before the ‘Stache only for the purposes of starting another Held Action. If HeroMan’s player starts abusing the privilege, or it causes problems, the GM should stop allowing him to do this.

[Jfry]

Re: House rules for held actions - gap between start of segment and character's DEX

 

Ahh, very nice, Hyper-Man - that's just what I was hoping for.

 

As an aside, is there anything out there that lists the diffs between 5E and 5ER? A Hero Games published/approved PDF?

 

Thanks again,

Jeff

[Hyper-Man]

Re: House rules for held actions - gap between start of segment and character's DEX

 

Ahh, very nice, Hyper-Man - that's just what I was hoping for.

 

As an aside, is there anything out there that lists the diffs between 5E and 5ER? A Hero Games published/approved PDF?

 

Thanks again,

Jeff

 

See the 5th link in my SIG.

[Vondy]

Re: House rules for held actions - gap between start of segment and character's DEX

 

Hey Von' date=' thanks for the reply. I think I may be misunderstanding you. Are you saying that the rules as stated allow Toad (with DEX 18 and the same SPD as Heron) to swing at Heron before he flies away again? [/quote']

 

Yep.

 

That is how I'd like it to work' date=' but not how I understand the rules. [/quote']

 

 

Hyper-Man quoted the relevant rules text. The example does not take the stated option into account.

 

I've run my games this way since 4th edition, so I may not have noticed that it was an option when I started running 5th.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: House rules for held actions - gap between start of segment and character's DEX

 

Hmmm. Shows you how you play the game often differs from the rules as written doesn't it. For as long as I can remember I have played the game such that if my character was SPD 4 and held his action in segment three he could use that phase at any time up to segment 8 without penalty - he'd act on segment 7, segment 8 and would have two actions remaining in the turn. If he held into segment 8 then he'd lose the second phase for that turn as he'd still be holding the action for the first phase.

 

 

Doc