azato Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 This is something I have never been able to wrap my mind around. I can understand that a soldier's technique with a HTH weapon could increase the damage beyond just a simple chopping action. What I don't understand is how extra DCs can be added to a ranged attack. The way the missile leave the gun/bow is the same no matter who shoots it. Thus if marksman shoots somebody in the arm it should cause the same damage as a total novice shoots that same person in the arm. While I have not started a FH campaign yet, I am trying to come to some sort of conclusion now. I am leaning toward forbidding MA attacks for missile weapons. While I realize that there is no "right answer", I would like to know how others deal with this issues - especially in heroic level games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Re: Martial Arts for Ranged Attacks The best arguments are contained in UMA (The Ultimate Martial Artist). Real world martial arts: Page 43, Kyujutsu The Japanese art of the bow. Page 54, Shurikenjutsu The Japanese art of throwing shuriken. Fictional: page 73, Zen Riflery The art of the gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Re: Martial Arts for Ranged Attacks ... What I don't understand is how extra DCs can be added to a ranged attack. The way the missile leave the gun/bow is the same no matter who shoots it. Thus if marksman shoots somebody in the arm it should cause the same damage as a total novice shoots that same person in the arm. ... More to this point... Martial Arts damage, the use of Hit Locations and Find Weakness are all describing the same type of thing: Getting more damage through to a target based on precise technique. They usually don't overlap too much. (Hit Locations are not recommended for Supers, Find Weakness is suggested instead). The leap for many HERO players is understanding that Martial Arts damage is also a type of Hit Location specific damage. Why else does ALL MA damage do 1d6 less Knockback in a Supers setting? Why doesn't Choke Hold require a Hit Location roll? etc.. Regardless, some powerful (possibly abusive) effects can be accomplished when combining any of the 3 methods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azato Posted March 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Re: Martial Arts for Ranged Attacks I will check those out, my son has copy downstairs. The best arguments are contained in UMA (The Ultimate Martial Artist). Real world martial arts: Page 43, Kyujutsu The Japanese art of the bow. Page 54, Shurikenjutsu The Japanese art of throwing shuriken. Fictional: page 73, Zen Riflery The art of the gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azato Posted March 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Re: Martial Arts for Ranged Attacks Well, I plan to do hit locations. I was wondering if I did away with ranged MA that would free up points to: 1. Buy the ability to shoot twice in a phase. I currently disallow that since it seems too powerful with the Ranged Martial Arts (shudder) 2. Buy PSL's vs range and hit locations The few trial runs I made with an archer who could do 4d6 RKA was rather devastating. This would bring the killing damage down but still give the opportunity to stun. [note: this was written before i have done my reading assignment. I may change my mind after doing the homework]. More to this point... Martial Arts damage, the use of Hit Locations and Find Weakness are all describing the same type of thing: Getting more damage through to a target based on precise technique. They usually don't overlap too much. (Hit Locations are not recommended for Supers, Find Weakness is suggested instead). The leap for many HERO players is understanding that Martial Arts damage is also a type of Hit Location specific damage. Why else does ALL MA damage do 1d6 less Knockback in a Supers setting? Why doesn't Choke Hold require a Hit Location roll? etc.. Regardless, some powerful (possibly abusive) effects can be accomplished when combining any of the 3 methods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Re: Martial Arts for Ranged Attacks The ability to shoot twice a phase is no more deadly or unbalancing as a guy with a sword sweeping. Well, I have found it so anyway. And the 4d6 RKA is just as deadly as the 4d6 HKA, no more no less. I don't see the problem, can you elaborate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Re: Martial Arts for Ranged Attacks Many of the maneuvers help with range mods, or ocv and dcv,not just damage. Much like HTH martial arts. Do you have a problem with them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azato Posted March 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Re: Martial Arts for Ranged Attacks The ability to shoot twice a phase is no more deadly or unbalancing as a guy with a sword sweeping. Well, I have found it so anyway. And the 4d6 RKA is just as deadly as the 4d6 HKA, no more no less. I don't see the problem, can you elaborate? As of now I do not allow sweeping. I do allow two weapon fighting but it is expensive and is limited. I don't disagree. I don't even disagree that I may be slightly irrational. The difference between the two is the range factor. With the HTH it generates a fair amount of risk because one has to get in close. I must say I really LIKE this feature but for some reason I hesitate.... The leveling factor is that the bad guys can do the same thing as well. [see, I can hold two conflicting views at the same time.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azato Posted March 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Re: Martial Arts for Ranged Attacks Not at all. My main concern is with damage. I plan to keep magic items fairly scarce (at least for awhile) so buffed characters are not going to happen. I am appealing to those of you who have played to let me know your thoughts. You have the pragmatic experience with this rule. Many of the maneuvers help with range mods' date=' or ocv and dcv,not just damage. Much like HTH martial arts. Do you have a problem with them?[/quote'] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Re: Martial Arts for Ranged Attacks As you are talking relatively low damage thresholds and magic items I'm guessing you're running a fantasy campaign. Well, for me the balancing factor for anyone sweeping, be that HTH or Ranged attacks, is the 1/2 dcv penalty. Being at half dcv is a sure way of getting clobbered if ever there was one. I have ran Hero in many guises for a long, long time and see no problem with sweeps either ranged or HTH or matial arts, either ranged or HTH. As for damage the thing to remember that you cannot do more than double the damage class of a weapon. A 2d6 RKA bow will still need 6 DC to get up there. You will need many damage classes, maneuvers and skill levels to max out a weapon. For me the only thing to watch it for is that Martial Damage classes increase the base damage level. A 1/2d6 killing strike could become a 1D6+1 with Str added. However if damage classes were added you could get a 1d6HKA base and add another d6 with Str. Perhaps you could allow them in your game with the previso that they are only provisional and that if they don't 'work' for you you'll remove them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azato Posted March 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Re: Martial Arts for Ranged Attacks That may be the ticket - especially since you have had experience in this area. Perhaps you could allow them in your game with the previso that they are only provisional and that if they don't 'work' for you you'll remove them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted March 11, 2008 Report Share Posted March 11, 2008 Re: Martial Arts for Ranged Attacks 2. Buy PSL's vs range and hit locations Penalty skill levels with hit locations (especially with more than 4) unbalance things much faster than any other rule I've ever run. With three levels you can hit the chest any time for a "3" on any hit. With 4 you can headshot a DCV 0 with no penalty from surprise. And don't get me started on what happens when you have 8 of them- Head shot every strike. It can get very ugly. My houserule is that no more than 4 PSL against hit locations can be purchased, and the penalty can be no more than halved (a -3 becomes a -1, a -6 becomes a -3), no matter how many levels you have. Another thing about Ranged martial arts - you do remember that any extra DC from manuever or purchased extra DCs are halved when adding to weaponed killing attacks. The +4DC ranged martial arts manuevers only adds +2 DC to the bow (or spell). Yeah it kicks a 2d6 Kill to 2 1/2, but that isn't that unreasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted March 11, 2008 Report Share Posted March 11, 2008 Re: Martial Arts for Ranged Attacks I run a pulp campaign that has super-powers in it. It nonetheless tends to run with a (high-end) heroic mindset. I do not use the martial arts rules. Characters purchase talents (power-skill builds), skills, and skill levels for martial arts. I allow sweep and rapid fire. I allow PSLs. I allow skill levels to be used for DC bonuses instead of CV bonuses. I only use hit locations for called shots, and allow PSLs (though not generally past 4). I allow Find Weakness as an alternative. This is not because the martial arts rules don't work, but because it facilitates the style of play and genre-feel I'm looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted March 11, 2008 Report Share Posted March 11, 2008 Re: Martial Arts for Ranged Attacks And don't get me started on what happens when you have 8 of them- Head shot every strike. It can get very ugly. My houserule is that no more than 4 PSL against hit locations can be purchased, and the penalty can be no more than halved (a -3 becomes a -1, a -6 becomes a -3), no matter how many levels you have. I also capped them at 4. In fact, I capped all PSLs at 4 with the exception of PSLs for range penalties. I also audit for concept: to have them being a marksman needs tobe relevant to your shtick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azato Posted March 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2008 Re: Martial Arts for Ranged Attacks I believe this is where I went wrong. I don't doubt that it is in the rules, clearly laid out - but seeing +4 DCs I just assumed it was no different. Halving does make it more "reasonable". Another thing about Ranged martial arts - you do remember that any extra DC from manuever or purchased extra DCs are halved when adding to weaponed killing attacks. The +4DC ranged martial arts manuevers only adds +2 DC to the bow (or spell). Yeah it kicks a 2d6 Kill to 2 1/2, but that isn't that unreasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted March 11, 2008 Report Share Posted March 11, 2008 Re: Martial Arts for Ranged Attacks Here is a superhero archer who is primarily built around his ranged martial arts. Someone else could use his bow but wouldn't do as much damage with it without similar skills. Aoi-Ya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azato Posted March 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2008 Re: Martial Arts for Ranged Attacks After this thread and the two-weapon thread in Fantasy Hero Forum - I am going to have to rethink my original rethinking of combat. Having that one feature wrong - Killing attack and MA DC adders - threw the whole groove off. I appreciate everybody posting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Re: Martial Arts for Ranged Attacks That's what we're here for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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