First Adventure Questions

[tomasina]

Having created all of our characters, we started our first adventure yesterday. We had to have a dedicated 'page turner' to look up rules for our contstant questions... but overall it went fairly smoothly.

 

While most of the night went smooth, we did run into a couple of questions for which we could not find answers in the books... and I am hoping some of you might have some input.

 

1 - The wizard in the party has a spell that creates a stone wall... it is listed as having the duration of instant. We could not find out anywhere how long the wall lasts for though. It does not seem right that it should last forever... or the world would be covered in stone walls by now... but we could not seem to find out how long it lasted for. Does it simply stay as long as he pays END to maintain it?

 

2 - How much END do martial combat maneuvers cost? For example, our monk had the ability Martial Disarm which is defined as a 1/2 phase action that results in a +35 STR to disarm at the cost of -1 OCV +1 DCV. If the monk had a STR of 20 and used all her strength in the disarm... does it cost 4 END (1 END per 5 STR, and the 35 Bonus STR is free) or is it 11 END (1 END per 5 STR (including bonus STR))?

 

3 - What is the balancing factor of martial arts character? It seemed that the monk in the party was a 'super character'. For example, she had a roundhouse maneuver (from the Ultimate Martial Artist) that added a +6D6 of damage for a -2 OCV and +1 DCV. And the Disarm maneuver (as listed above) is almost impossible to beat... which left all the bad guys without weapons very quickly. Our fighter, who was fighting with a hammer, could do nowhere near as much damage as the monk... and ended the night feeling that his character was very underpowered. I feel like I am missing something here.

 

4 - I am a bit confused about Stun Multipliers. As far as I can tell from the book, STUNx only applies to killing damage (times body damage by STUNx to get amount of stun damage). Where I got confused is how this applies to certain weapons. For example, our fighter fights with a hammer that does 1D6 damage with a +1 STUNx (according to Fantasy Hero). Since a hammer does normal damage... what good is the +1 STUNx? Again, I think I am missing something.

 

5 - If someone does not have a skill... can they attempt to use it unlearned? For example, our party does not include a rogue and is thus as the mercy of most of the traps they have encountered. Can they attempt to search for traps even though they do not have a security systems skill? Does this apply to other skills as well?

 

6 - Does the Hero System differentiate between active Perception rolls and passive Perception rolls? I am assuming the Perception roll is passive, and a specific skill (concealment, security systems, etc.) is the active perception... is this correct?

 

Thanks as always!

 

Tom

[EvilEmpryss]

Re: First Adventure Questions

 

1 - The wizard in the party has a spell that creates a stone wall... it is listed as having the duration of instant. We could not find out anywhere how long the wall lasts for though. It does not seem right that it should last forever... or the world would be covered in stone walls by now... but we could not seem to find out how long it lasted for. Does it simply stay as long as he pays END to maintain it?

Not sure how you have the power built. With a duration of Instant, it would imply that the spell drops a stone wall down but the wall immediately disappears. That wouldn't provide much benefit (unless you drop it on top of someone!). Where did you get the power? How was it built?

 

2 - How much END do martial combat maneuvers cost? For example, our monk had the ability Martial Disarm which is defined as a 1/2 phase action that results in a +35 STR to disarm at the cost of -1 OCV +1 DCV. If the monk had a STR of 20 and used all her strength in the disarm... does it cost 4 END (1 END per 5 STR, and the 35 Bonus STR is free) or is it 11 END (1 END per 5 STR (including bonus STR))?

Martial arts do not cost END except for the regular STR used. If the character has a 10 STR and the maneuver adds +10 STR (like an Escape), the character only pays for the base 10 STR.

 

3 - What is the balancing factor of martial arts character? It seemed that the monk in the party was a 'super character'. For example, she had a roundhouse maneuver (from the Ultimate Martial Artist) that added a +6D6 of damage for a -2 OCV and +1 DCV. And the Disarm maneuver (as listed above) is almost impossible to beat... which left all the bad guys without weapons very quickly. Our fighter, who was fighting with a hammer, could do nowhere near as much damage as the monk... and ended the night feeling that his character was very underpowered. I feel like I am missing something here.

This is (IMO) a major fault of the system. For just a few points a character can increase their increase their OCV and DCV, increase their strength for throws and damage, generally get enhanced abilities at 0-END, force negative modifiers and wasted half-phases on their opponents, and perform NND attacks. If the wizard tried to do all that by changing the special effect from "martial arts" to "spells" he would pay a lot more or have to put major limitations on it. Because of this the campaigns I've been in either: limit the number of maneuver any one character can have, or make players build their martial arts like regular powers (no cheapie "target falls" and the like). It makes martial arts a little more complicated, but A LOT more fair to other players.

 

4 - I am a bit confused about Stun Multipliers. As far as I can tell from the book, STUNx only applies to killing damage (times body damage by STUNx to get amount of stun damage). Where I got confused is how this applies to certain weapons. For example, our fighter fights with a hammer that does 1D6 damage with a +1 STUNx (according to Fantasy Hero). Since a hammer does normal damage... what good is the +1 STUNx? Again, I think I am missing something.

Are you using Hit Locations in your game? If so, all you do is add the +1 to the Stun number on the Hit Location chart. The Stun multiple applies to all damage, not just killing. If I punch you in the head with my fist, it still gets the x2 Stun multiple (which wouldn't be much with my 8 STR .

 

5 - If someone does not have a skill... can they attempt to use it unlearned? For example, our party does not include a rogue and is thus as the mercy of most of the traps they have encountered. Can they attempt to search for traps even though they do not have a security systems skill? Does this apply to other skills as well?

Yes and no, depending upon the skill in question. I believe this is covered in the core book. For example, you could not (would not want to!) use the Demolitions skill untrained!

 

6 - Does the Hero System differentiate between active Perception rolls and passive Perception rolls? I am assuming the Perception roll is passive, and a specific skill (concealment, security systems, etc.) is the active perception... is this correct?

Sort of. An active PER roll may (at the GM's ruling) require a half or full phase to use (or longer, it's up to you and depends on the circumstances). A passive Per roll is just something you give the player a chance to make, usually without them asking for it. It's your chance to let a character notice something that the player might not have thought to ask about.

 

Thanks as always!

Tom

You're welcome! I hope it helps.

Glad to hear your campaign started out well, too.

[mayapuppies]

Re: First Adventure Questions

 

Hammers do Killing Damage.

 

Clubs and Quarterstaffs do Normal damage

[tomasina]

Re: First Adventure Questions

 

Not sure how you have the power built. With a duration of Instant, it would imply that the spell drops a stone wall down but the wall immediately disappears. That wouldn't provide much benefit (unless you drop it on top of someone!). Where did you get the power? How was it built?

 

The spell is Wall of Earth on page 80 of the Fantasy Hero Grimoire... if you do not have the book, let me know and I will type it in.

 

Hammers do Killing Damage.

 

Wow... how I messed that up is beyond me... thanks a TON.

 

Because of this the campaigns I've been in either: limit the number of maneuver any one character can have, or make players build their martial arts like regular powers (no cheapie "target falls" and the like).

 

So in your campaigns the martial artist buys his maneuvers as powers... including spending points to get them? This makes sense... but if this is the case, do they get to divide the final cost by 3 (Turakian Age Magic System) just like wizards and priests?

 

Thanks,

 

Tom

[Fellick]

Re: First Adventure Questions

 

In all games that I have played in more than just the monk can buy martial maneuvers. If you have the Ultimate Martial Artist (Which I highly suggest you get if you don't) have your other fighter players look through for a style that fits their fighting style, for example I just made a Centaur Brute (basically a barbarian) and he uses the Weapon Combat martial style which is meant for the crusader with a big sword type characters. Or there is the Brick Trick listing, for characters with high strength or Speedster one for characters with a high speed/velocity.

 

Also about the Hammer, for non-killing attacks you know that the body is +1 for every six and 0 for every 1 and the total stun for the attack is just the total number on all the dice?

 

Anyway, welcome to the game! I personally think this is the best and most versatile system out there.

[EvilEmpryss]

Re: First Adventure Questions

 

As far as Martial Arts go, Combat Levels are paid for straight out, just like all the other players. Buying a few dice of Hand Attack or levels of Damage Class allows the character to use it either bare-handed or with a H-t-H weapon. Their maneuvers tend to come out pretty cheap, what with no range, usually an OAF (weapon), gestures, et cetera. I don't believe we divided by 3 for the final cost, but I can see why that would make sense.

 

If you want to get fancy, especially with a character who has a special weapon style, you can make a Multipower of maneuvers (I had a spearmaiden who could do some wicked things, like a simple Entangle described as a disabling blow). Like I said, this can be the more time-consuming and complicated way of doing it, but I've heard less grousing from other players over the low cost/high power of the martial artist.

 

If you are going to allow Martial Arts in the game the way they're written, don't forget that there are a set of free martial arts that anyone can use: the Standard and Optional Combat Maneuvers (FREd 384). Your non-monk players will love to have the expanded options. Your monk player may feel that the others are infringing on his "schtick". In games where MAs are used, we always allow both the Standard and Optional maneuvers.

 

For the Wall of Earth spell: This thing is a mess, so first the easy and direct answer. It's built as an Entangle, so it lasts until it is either destroyed or dispelled.

 

I have a problem with the way it's built. Apparently, with FREd you can just decide that your Entangle can make barriers and you get AoE for free. That at 0-END Persistent and you get something that can encompass a large area? Yuck. And you don't get to take the limitation that people can move and it does not prevent use of foci, either. And there is no reason for it to have a range of 375". I don't want to even imagine the range modifiers for that distance! Take the limited range limitation and reduce the cost. The only real reason to build this spell the way it's done is so that the wizard does not have to continue to pay END while it's up.

 

{Edit}

Why have Earth Wizards not changed the course of rivers, created major networks of earth-fortifications around strategic targets, or at the very least provided cheap and quick housing for the homeless? You will have to come up with the answers to that as the GM, 'cuz nothing in the rules as written prevents it.

 

By the way, as designed in the book, an Entangle wall is only 1" high and cannot englobe the target. Anyone with a 10 STR and 6" of Running or better could clear that in one leap. Why would you bother with it?

{/Edit}

 

It makes more sense to be built as a Force Wall, spfx being it's made of Earth. Any earth wizard worth his salt ought to be able to move it along with himself, like a Force Wall can be moved in certain instances. Leave off the Expendable for the Focus; you don't get any savings from having an Easy to Obtain expendable focus, so instead make it a fragile clay ring the caster wears. The wall will remain up as long as the caster pays END or until it is breached. An additional option is to make it a Charge. The benefit to making it a charge is that it removes the END cost. A single continuing charge lasting 1 minute would add an additional -1.

 

{Edit: I made a mistake on the cost - it's a little more expensive that I first thought}

Wall of Earth II: 10 PD/10 ED Force Wall, 12" long, 1" tall - can englobe 19 hexes or a 5" diameter; Opaque to Sight Group; 1/2 END (+1/4) (102 AP; 24 RC; 8 FC)

OAF, Fragile: Clay ring (-1 1/4); Gestures (-1/4); Incantations (-1/4); Magic skill roll (-1/2); Limited range, 35" (-1/4); Wall must contact ground on at least one edge (-1/4), cannot be cast upon wood floors or water/must have earth or stone to create wall (-1/2)

 

END Cost: 4

 

This way automatically prevents wizards from wreaking havoc with the local topography and leaving lasting changes. It also actually serves the purpose of keeping the bad guys from getting to the wizard, and stops them from shooting arrows or jumping over the wall. If you want to drop the cost down, you could drop the area down to a 3" diameter (that's still about 20 feet across) and it would cost 87 AP, 20 RC, and 7 and cost 3 END.

 

If you add the continuing charge you remove the 1/2-END advantage and the cost would be 82 AP, 16 RC, and 5 Final Cost and would cost 0-END. This tends to make it more of a magic item rather than a focus, though. You could say that the ring recovers its charge it buried or kept in a pouch of dirt overnight.

 

See if that works better for you.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: First Adventure Questions

 

I would note that if your Wall of Earth is built as an Entangle, then while it has a duration of "instant" (Entangle goes off, but effect remains) then it lasts only until someone tears it down. Of course the world isn't covered in stone walls; they keep getting freaking blasted. So you can use EEs version (Force Wall) or you can build an Entangle version.

 

Remember that your mooks can resist being disarmed. They can also (and some may) be equipped with Chain Gauntlets or similar that make their weapons "disarmable" but only for a half phase as they reach down, reclaim the weapon, and then make with the stabbing.

 

Also, as Maya mentioned, Hammers do killing -- the Monk is dealing Normal damage, in almost all cases; especially if they're going barehanded. That means that both the armor of the target, and their inherent PD/ED apply vs. the BODY damage and the STUN damage done.

 

Lastly, if the Martial Maneuvers are making Mr. Monk ridiculous, encourage your Fighter to purchase them for his Hammer. Weapons are perfectly legit, and there are "medieval fighting arts" in that text. What's good for the goose, etc. & so forth. I dis/agree with Empress, I think it's setting & GM specific. Yes, there are some things that ought to be bought as powers straight up. However, when the Fighter gets him "some maneuvers" and they are different and just as effective in combat, that should fix the problem. But there are multiple ways to tackle it.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: First Adventure Questions

 

The spell is Wall of Earth on page 80 of the Fantasy Hero Grimoire... if you do not have the book' date=' let me know and I will type it in.[/quote']

 

No need to type the whole thing in; the basic Power and any Modifiers that might affect duration would probably be enough.

[CTaylor]

Re: First Adventure Questions

 

1 - The wizard in the party has a spell that creates a stone wall... it is listed as having the duration of instant. We could not find out anywhere how long the wall lasts for though. It does not seem right that it should last forever... or the world would be covered in stone walls by now... but we could not seem to find out how long it lasted for. Does it simply stay as long as he pays END to maintain it?

 

Ok the book either has a typo, or it means "casting time" where it says "duration" because it's built as an entangle; only to build barriers. That means he fires it off and the wall exists until it's broken down, but takes no time to cast. The presumption is that there aren't millions of mages casting walls all over the place, I'd guess.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: First Adventure Questions

 

Ok the book either has a typo' date=' or it means "casting time" where it says "duration" because it's built as an entangle; only to build barriers. That means he fires it off and the wall exists until it's broken down, but takes no time to cast. The presumption is that there aren't millions of mages casting walls all over the place, I'd guess.[/quote']

 

Just like D&D assumes there aren't millions of mages casting that Wall of Stone spell, which would build fortifications quite a bit faster. And just like virtually every RPG has large flying creatures, yet people still behave as if a 30' high wall provides protection.

 

If you assume the magic typical to most RPG's is commonplace, the world should be a very different place.

[Alibear]

Re: First Adventure Questions

 

Quick thought re the monlk and the fighter unbalance.

 

How many points did the monk spend on combat abilities, include his 20 str in that.

 

Now how many points did the fighter spend on combat abilities? Is there an imbalance?

 

Why could the the fighter not buy a martial art? Or an extra d6 killing attack to add to his weapon damage?

[CTaylor]

Re: First Adventure Questions

 

You have to add the effective point value of the warrior's armor and weapons to the cost; he gets those for free, the monk pays for all his attacks with points.

[CourtFool]

Re: First Adventure Questions

 

Yes, the real cost, not the active cost. Accessible Foci and Real Armor/Weapon factor in. Add in Weapon Familiarities as well.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: First Adventure Questions

 

It seems pretty clear the discrepancy between the monk and the fighter arises from the failure to treat the hammer damage as a killing attack, rather than a normal attack. See how it works without that error.

[CTaylor]

Re: First Adventure Questions

 

And watch how well the monk does against, say, a skeleton who takes no stun.