Farkling Posted August 5, 2003 Report Share Posted August 5, 2003 Darn whoever was asking about the Traveller Shelter. Now I have this on my mind. The following is from "Penetrating ForceWalls" in the Rules Questions. I'd like a little input from the theorists out there... 2) Can Tunneling be used to move through a Force Wall if it is bought to move through sufficient DEF? 3) If so, does the tunneling automatically destroy the wall? 4) Or if bought with the adder "fills in tunnel behind him" does this allow the force wall to be repaired and not destroyed? STEVE'S REPLY 2. No. 3-4. Moot. __________________ Steve Long HERO System Line Developer And it's not important or Earth Shattering Character Destruction...just a question for the other folks out there. Shouldn't the answer to #2 be - "within the realm of special effects" FREd defines a Force Wall as an object or a real wall. Going by this answer, if Earthmover puts up a Rampart (Force Wall, 8 PD, 4 ED), MoleMan cannot Tunnel through it. Yet MoleMan has Tunnelling through all earth and rock. I must buy an RKA for the express purpose of blasting through Earthmover's Force Wall? This doesn't make sense to me, and I don't see any point to arguing with Steve. Any other GM's think my perception of Tunnelling versus Force Walls is within reason? After all, if I can tunnel through a tractor trailer with my Tunnelling, why couldn't I Tunnel through certain Force Walls? If my Force Wall is defined as "lucky imposition of objects", the Tunnelling will not WORK on those objects...so I am troubled by this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted August 5, 2003 Report Share Posted August 5, 2003 1. You're the GM. Your game, your rules. If you want to go by special effects, do it. Never let game mechanics get in the way of a good story. 2. As a general rule, which is what Steve has to go by, if you let players start expanding the value of a power through its special effects the power will eventually be worth a heck of a lot more than the player paid for it. So, if you do allow it, it might be a good idea to eventually force the player involved to buy a MP with Tunnelling and the Tunnelling Trick he just used (probably a straight HKA or RKA). The Power Skill can handle it as well. If you don't mind giving out the freebie, then it's not a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insaniac99 Posted August 5, 2003 Report Share Posted August 5, 2003 uh, I agree with everyone? 1: you gotta be careful about the abuse factor, but I'd allow it, the only thing I'm semi iffy about is the thing that the wall has a different ED, so it isn't the same as a regular wall that has the same ED and PD defense, but that is a quibble, I'd allow it.... 2: again depends on SFX, i mean if the wall is contantly costing hte character or the device that generates it END, then I'd say it punches a hole through and it disipates, but again I'd have to think about special effects. if it isn't costing anyone end, it is sepperate form teh character, so it only punches a small hole 3: again depends on SFX..... probably. but then how does the visible part come in with an energy shield? I'm suprised at Steve's answer..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted August 5, 2003 Report Share Posted August 5, 2003 Force Wall, No. Barrier Entangle, Yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tech Posted August 5, 2003 Report Share Posted August 5, 2003 I'd say yes to both, as long as it fits special effect. Even if I allowed it, I'd say you'd have to have Tunneling: Inches + def must = FW PD + ED defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insaniac99 Posted August 5, 2003 Report Share Posted August 5, 2003 Originally posted by Tech I'd say yes to both, as long as it fits special effect. Even if I allowed it, I'd say you'd have to have Tunneling: Inches + def must = FW PD + ED defense. actually the correct way is I >= W and D >= F where I is tunneling inches and W is wall width and D is Tunneling Defense and F is Force wall PD+ED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snarf Posted August 6, 2003 Report Share Posted August 6, 2003 I decided to allow stuff like this in my games, when I decided to include a mecha/space fighter with a torch that tunnels through the hulls of starships. I bent the rules even more by allowing cumulative to be applied to tunneling, so very heavy defenses could be broken down, but it would take a long time. I bent the rules still further by putting it in a multipower which represented vehicle transformations. It's all a bit iffy, but I liked the idea, so I figured I would just plan the adventures so it wouldn't be too powerful. 3) Liquify Mode: Tunneling 1" through 10 DEF, Cumulative (16x, +1), (AP 70), OIF Bulky (-1), Costs Endurance (-1/2), (RC 28) The power would allow barriers or wall-like defenses such as force walls and entangles of up to 160 DEF to be slowly tunneled through, but they would have to broken down at a rate of 10 DEF per phase. The slowness might be enough to keep the power under controI. I haven't tested any of this in a game yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted August 6, 2003 Report Share Posted August 6, 2003 Perhaps the problem isn't the Tunneling, it's the Force Wall. I usually interpret a FW as being not a physical thing (it has no BODY). A physical barrier sich as a rampart of earth should be built as an Entangle (perhaps with "Only to form Barriers"), which CAN be tunneled through. Does Earthmover's rampart instantly go away if he stops spending END? If he builds it 10" long and Moleman breaks a 1" hole through it, does the whole thing collapse? If the answers to these questions are no then it should probably be built as an Entangle barrier. If he continually spends END on it, that could mean that he is continually renewing and supporting it, which could explain why it can't be tunnelled through. Every hole you poke in it instantly fills back up with dirt. That would be a Force Wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farkling Posted August 7, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 So the upshot is, "When is an object not an object?" "When that object is a Force Wall" So, after RE-reading the opening of Force Wall, yet again...I am struck by the following concept:: Force Walls are pretty much designed as energy contructs, and if I want a physcal lasting wall I need to buy an Entangle instead of some kind of persistent Force Wall. Strange. One would think the wall construction ability would be under Force Wall. I guess the operative word is Force... The opening paragraph on P 116 says:: "Some examples include protective screens of energy, force domes, or walls of enchanted fire." All are energy constructs. So perhaps this explains Steve's ruling. So, next comes the question, how does Iceman create those bridges and building supports?? A large scale transform? Tangible special effects on Telekinesis? An Entangle? A Transfrom USED on his Entangle would be mechanically sound... Inquiring minds want to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snarf Posted August 7, 2003 Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 An entangle sounds good. I've seen him freeze guys in blocks of ice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tech Posted August 7, 2003 Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 Originally posted by Insaniac99 actually the correct way is I >= W and D >= F where I is tunneling inches and W is wall width and D is Tunneling Defense and F is Force wall PD+ED It doesn't matter to me but I'd say there is no 'correct' way as we're looking at interpretations of house rules. I think we're all in agreement that it's okay to tunnel through a Force Wall but whether or not to use Tunneling is the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Jogger Posted August 7, 2003 Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 Originally posted by Farkling So, next comes the question, how does Iceman create those bridges and building supports?? I've always been partial to Area Effect Entangles. It gives a DEF and a BODY and you know how many hexes you can create. KS: Sculpture may be required... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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