Holy Water

[mayapuppies]

Hello all,

 

I have a player that wishes to have a Holy Text that, among other things, has the recipe for Holy Water. The Holy Water has the following properties as told to me by the player:

Andron's Purity: a bit of water is blessed by the priest and can be used to ward off unholy creatures.

 

If it's put on them it causes them to flee outright until it evaporates, I guess. Otherwise it can be applied to an area, person or item and have the effect of causing unholy creatures (demons, vampires, fell spirits, undead) to not be able to pass through the area, not contact the person, or flee when struck by the item (e.g. a sword).

I'm a bit stumped as to how to build this.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Holy Water

 

For a person or a weapon, bonus PRE, Only For PRE Attacks, Only Vs. Undead.

 

On an area, Force Wall to keep them out.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Holy Water

 

Yeah, but how do I replicate that all in one build with dosages?

[Outsider]

Re: Holy Water

 

Don't.

 

Take it as a Phys Lim and Susceptibility on your unholy creatures. Phys Lim, can't cross Holy Barriers And susceptibility to touch of holy objects.

 

Now you have more points to play with to make your undead

[mayapuppies]

Re: Holy Water

 

Don't.

 

Take it as a Phys Lim and Susceptibility on your unholy creatures. Phys Lim, can't cross Holy Barriers And susceptibility to touch of holy objects.

 

Now you have more points to play with to make your undead

LOL

 

So I just make the players ability a Transform: Water to Holy Water?

[Outsider]

Re: Holy Water

 

Only if you think he really wants it to be a power. Otherwise just make it a ritual learned from the book that requires a roll against his PS : Priest and that he have Perk : Member of Priesthood.

 

If you do think he wants an actual power, it would be Transform (cosmetic or minor), water to holy water. A hex of water has what, 12 BODY? so even a 1D6 Transform should make plenty of holy water.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Holy Water

 

LOL

 

So I just make the players ability a Transform: Water to Holy Water?

 

that was how I did it, yeah.

 

is there a better example of a "Spiritual" transform?

[CTaylor]

Re: Holy Water

 

Build it as a disadvantage for the creatures it affects: susceptibility to Holy Water, takes x damage from exposure.

 

Then you just allow people with the appropriate perk make it with a blessing, or if you prefer a transformation attack (very small, minor transform at most; it's still just water to everyone but the guys with the disad).

[mayapuppies]

Re: Holy Water

 

Gracias

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Holy Water

 

Well, wait, the Holy Water simply repels Undead? Doesn't actually do anything else? Then I would go with:

 

+X PRE, Only to Repel (Evil/Outsiders/Undead). You'll want to handle it not as a Transform (which will work just fine) but built the power outright, Charges, er...

 

Holy Water: Turn Undead/Evl/Outsiders (+30 PRE), 4 Boostable Recoverable Continuing Charges lasting 1 Minute each (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances (Priest must spend 10 minutes incanting over & enchanting water); +0) (18 Active Points); OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1)

 

Like so. I left off "Gestures" and "Incantations" and simply rolled it all into "Charges," seeing as they can recover said charges inside of 10 minutes. You can slap on Extra Time (only for creating Holy Water) and that would, reasonably, cover it as well.

[Ocelot]

Re: Holy Water

 

Only if you think he really wants it to be a power. Otherwise just make it a ritual learned from the book that requires a roll against his PS : Priest and that he have Perk : Member of Priesthood.

 

If you do think he wants an actual power, it would be Transform (cosmetic or minor), water to holy water. A hex of water has what, 12 BODY? so even a 1D6 Transform should make plenty of holy water.

 

Agreed.

 

Well, wait, the Holy Water simply repels Undead? Doesn't actually do anything else? Then I would go with:

 

+X PRE, Only to Repel (Evil/Outsiders/Undead). You'll want to handle it not as a Transform (which will work just fine) but built the power outright, Charges, er...

 

Holy Water: Turn Undead/Evl/Outsiders (+30 PRE), 4 Boostable Recoverable Continuing Charges lasting 1 Minute each (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances (Priest must spend 10 minutes incanting over & enchanting water); +0) (18 Active Points); OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1)

 

Like so. I left off "Gestures" and "Incantations" and simply rolled it all into "Charges," seeing as they can recover said charges inside of 10 minutes. You can slap on Extra Time (only for creating Holy Water) and that would, reasonably, cover it as well.

 

Disagreed.

 

See, the way I see it, the question should be, what does the substance/power do against a normal, an unskilled character, an Everyman.

 

• A burst of flame doing 2d6 to an Everyman? Does damage. Costs points to shoot flame.
  
• Splashing water on an Everyman? Nothing. Doesn't cost points to splash water.
  
• A blast of powerful water doing 2d6 to an Everyman? Does damage. Costs points to shoot water.
  
• Splashing Holy Water on an Everyman? Nothing. Doesn't cost points to splash holy water.
  

For me, think of it like beer? What's the difference between Holy Water and Beer to an Everyman in Combat? Not much. Does it take a skill to make Beer? Yes. Points? No.

 

So don't make it a power to make Holy Water. Don't make it cost points. And don't stat out the Holy Water. It doesn't DO anything, anything more than sunlight, or silver, or running water, or garlic.

 

And really... Who (other than a dedicated HEROphile) wants to stat out garlic.

 

Kryptonite isn't a Drain against Superman - Superman has a Susceptibility to Kryptonite.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Holy Water

 

Disagreed.

 

Kryptonite isn't a Drain against Superman - Superman has a Susceptibility to Kryptonite.

 

Agreed, if it's Kryptonite, sure. That makes sense. However, in most fantasy settings, the Holy Water has a set, measurable effect, i.e., "Turn Undead." Or whatever else. If your Holy Water creates a "force wall" of some kind, then that should be paid for. However, that becomes a circular argument.

 

Ultimately it's up to the GM. Certainly, I can build a Vampire who has Susceptibility, "Faith." However, that's either modeled as Turn Undead, or, someone purchasing Faith (the ability to Turn Undead). I'm not asying you're wrong, but for my purposes, it should be built.

 

YMMV.

[Ocelot]

Re: Holy Water

 

Agreed' date=' if it's Kryptonite, sure. That makes sense. However, in most fantasy settings, the Holy Water has a set, measurable effect, i.e., "Turn Undead." Or whatever else. If your Holy Water creates a "force wall" of some kind, then that [i']should [/i]be paid for. However, that becomes a circular argument.

 

Ultimately it's up to the GM. Certainly, I can build a Vampire who has Susceptibility, "Faith." However, that's either modeled as Turn Undead, or, someone purchasing Faith (the ability to Turn Undead). I'm not asying you're wrong, but for my purposes, it should be built.

 

YMMV.

 

For the sake of argument (and what HEROphile doesn't love a good argument), and minding the fact that I've got mad respect for ya, Thia...

 

For me, a real question is agency. Who is doing what to whom...

 

For the Faith example...

 

Is the Vampire just affected by Turning, or by Faith? Namely, is he affected by a cross in a room alone? If yes, I'd build it as a Susceptibility to Faith. If a plain cross in a room (an unconsecrated room) doesn't affect the Vampire, but the Priest's Turning does, then I'd make the point cost rest on the Priest, in the form of Turning.

 

So, for Holy Water...

 

If it's a special effect of something a Priest can do, and a Holy Water shower just chillin' in a dungeon does nothing, then you should stat it out. But if river of Holy Water, with no PCs or other characters around, can hurt a Vampire, and not a normal person, I'd stat it out on the Vampire.

 

Again, YMMV, but for me, agency is one of the keys to maintaining GM balance.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Holy Water

 

For the sake of argument (and what HEROphile doesn't love a good argument), and minding the fact that I've got mad respect for ya, Thia...

 

For me, a real question is agency. Who is doing what to whom...

 

For the Faith example...

 

Is the Vampire just affected by Turning, or by Faith? Namely, is he affected by a cross in a room alone? If yes, I'd build it as a Susceptibility to Faith. If a plain cross in a room (an unconsecrated room) doesn't affect the Vampire, but the Priest's Turning does, then I'd make the point cost rest on the Priest, in the form of Turning.

 

So, for Holy Water...

 

If it's a special effect of something a Priest can do, and a Holy Water shower just chillin' in a dungeon does nothing, then you should stat it out. But if river of Holy Water, with no PCs or other characters around, can hurt a Vampire, and not a normal person, I'd stat it out on the Vampire.

 

Again, YMMV, but for me, agency is one of the keys to maintaining GM balance.

 

Of course. Accept for the moment that I agree with you one hundred percent. As in, I think you're absolutely right. However, and here's the focus of my argument (and you'll find this is consistent in all of my designs).

 

1) The agent should, as you say, always be statted out. You're right; an Energy Blast blasts things! Needs to be paid for and statted out.

 

2) A Gravity Well gravititizes things! It should be paid for and statted out; a Gravity Well in space has a measurable effect; so long as we know that the effect must take hold, then in turn, we'll know how Susceptibilities and Vulnerabilities are affected by it.

 

Which brings me to:

 

3) 99% of the time, and I mean that as extremely as it was written, the agent -- the [noun] [verbing] -- must be statted out. In this case, Holy Water that Turns Undead (and this is a for instance). I'm submitting that I have more depth, and more variety, by statting it proper.

 

You say, FREX, a Vampire is Vulnerable to Holy effects. Now I know the water is Holy, and I know it has a base +30 PRE Attack, meaning Slappy the Kindred is going to take 60 PRE from it. The Holy Water should have come with the limitation, "Only to Make PRE Attacks vs. Undead, blah blah, -1/2." But that glitch in the specification of the build aside, that leaves us still having a known element (damage done) and a known element (damage that will be taken).

 

Making it a special effect is fine in most games, but in my experience, you need to know, in advance, what's going to happen when you throw Holy Water at a Vampire. To support the example:

 

If you were to throw a vial of acid, you'd know what it does. If you were to throw a water balloon -- well, the water balloon has no combat value! You get wet. In your example, we've thrown a Water Balloon full of Vampire Gasoline. We don't stat Gasoline. It's a fuel and it has the SFX, "freaking flammable." We don't stat out much damage per phase is going to be taken by someone being drenched in gasoline (although, this being HERO, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if that's written up somewhere, so we know who gets burned, who lives, who dies, and so on).

 

But in this case, the agent should be (and in my example, is) the Holy Water. Exposing [specified creature] to Holy Water should and does have a set measurable effect. That's all I'm saying. Is there a part of that you disagree and/or find fault with?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Holy Water

 

I would also add that this lets the writer build in things like "+X PRE, Only to Resist PRE Attacks," so even if it comes from a Holy Source, he may still have a solid resistance to Turn Undead style strikes, even if he'll take full damage (or more) from an Enchanted Blade.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Holy Water

 

There's also the matter of a Cross in the room; "Cannot Pass the Shadow of the Cross" is a physical limitation; not to be confused with something that deals damage directly, or that has a predefined specific effect.

[CTaylor]

Re: Holy Water

 

Agreed, if it's Kryptonite, sure. That makes sense. However, in most fantasy settings, the Holy Water has a set, measurable effect, i.e., "Turn Undead." Or whatever else. If your Holy Water creates a "force wall" of some kind, then that should be paid for.

 

It's not specific to Superman, all kryptonians suffer from exposure, he's just the last one left (or the second to last, depending on which iteration).

[Ocelot]

Re: Holy Water

 

No, your argument is right. I'm not saying one shouldn't know how much damage it does. In a sense, the GM does need to know how much damage a small vial of Holy Water does to Frex, versus a Large Vial, versus a weapon dipped in Holy Water, versus an Oak Staff that was grown while only being watered with Holy Water.

 

HERO runs on numbers, and its good to know those numbers.

 

I'm just saying that, in a Heroic Campaign, the ability to make Holy Water should be a Skill, not a power.

 

I think that, whatever the damage is, the Vampire has a Susceptibility to "Holy Stuff," and as such, takes damage from Holy Water. But I don't think you need to build out the Holy Water into complete stats, because you run into other problems.

 

If you stat out Holy Water as working on Undead, and then the Priest throws it on a Demon, well, the Holy Water wasn't statted out to work on Demons, so no dice. Oh, wait, you want to dip a powerful evil sword in Holy Water to Dispel it? Well, it wasn't statted out that way. And you want to drink some Holy Water to cure the Necromantic plague ripping through your body? No dice, the Holy Water build doesn't have a Healing Power built in. And so forth and so on.

 

Instead, I'd just treat it as a substance, like water. There are rules for Drowning, because it is important for a GM to have those numbers. However, not every character with a Summon Water Power, or a Transform to Water Power, or a canteen full of water, needs to buy Drain STUN. I have a canteen full of water, and if I pour it into a doggie dish and shove an Everyman's face into it, he will drown, but I don't think I need to buy a Drain STUN, Linked to my Summon Water OIF: Canteen.

 

In MY book, it's important to know the numbers, but you can't stat out every implementation of those numbers.

 

In the Vampire Frex example, I think it's better to have the Vampire have a Vulnerability to Holy Stuff, and know what kinds of numbers are involved with that Holy Stuff, than to make stats for every kind and use of Holy Stuff.

[Ocelot]

Re: Holy Water

 

It's not specific to Superman' date=' all kryptonians suffer from exposure, he's just the last one left (or the second to last, depending on which iteration).[/quote']

 

Granted.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Holy Water

 

I agree with you, again, however, the specific example said to me "turn some undead."

 

And FREX is short hand for "FoR EXample."

[CTaylor]

Re: Holy Water

 

Right, so the class is undead, the specific is Joe the Vampire. Like the class being Kryptonian, the specific being Krypto, the Super Dog.

[Ocelot]

Re: Holy Water

 

Oh, I thought you were giving the Vampire the name "Frex." Ha.

 

Well, turn some undead, prevent communication, and do added damage to a weapon.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Holy Water

 

Oh, I thought you were giving the Vampire the name "Frex." Ha.

 

Well, turn some undead, prevent communication, and do added damage to a weapon.

 

Then we buy Holy Water as an IVPP, with each effect not exceeding so many points.

[Ocelot]

Re: Holy Water

 

Why not just go whole hog and build the Holy Water as an XDM:UAA to a world where the Vampire was burned?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Holy Water

 

Why not just go whole hog and build the Holy Water as an XDM:UAA to a world where the Vampire was burned?

 

AH, see, NOW you're talking!