"Never Miss" powers

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

I'm talking about a mechanic that, at present, allows the most dextrous man in the world to MISS someone who can make a DEX roll by at least +1. Sure there is always a miss chance, but it should be 1 in 216, at those extremes.

 

TUMA not being able to land a punch before MB jumps out of the way over half the time? That's...just wrong.

 

Well, let's look at that mechanic again, and lay out exactly what it means. First, it's optional; I could see a GM not allowing it for use with basic HTH. "You can Roll with Punch, but not Dive for Cover." However, if you're gonna allow one, you gotta allow it all, so ...

 

DFC == 'Abort your next action. Dive out of the way. End up prone.'

 

MB ALWAYS ends up prone. No Breakfall or Acrobatics roll is going to get him out of this one; he's prone. Which means that when the next Phase comes around, he's still prone, and he has to spend half a phase standing. I believe UMA gets to go first and, since MB cannot DFC without being properly oriented, he can't go that route; gotta Abort to a Dodge instead, at which point I'm presuming UMA knocks him into silly-land -- or at least STUNS him.

 

So presuming an equal SPD, unequal DEX, Monkey Boy's first Abort to DFC will let him dive out of the way of that wicked punch/kick/whatever. But then ... the very next Phase, he's toast.

 

As for 'I don't like this scenario', okay -- but Defense Wins is the way the HERO system is built. *shrugs* If you absolutely must have this power, I'd be mean and say +2 minimum -- because it IS potentially unbalancing.

[archermoo]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Well' date=' let's look at that mechanic again, and lay out exactly what it means. First, it's optional; I could see a GM not allowing it for use with basic HTH. "You can Roll with Punch, but not Dive for Cover." However, if you're gonna allow one, you gotta allow it all, so ...[/quote']

 

Why do you have to allow all uses if you allow any? Why can't it be situational?

 

DFC == 'Abort your next action. Dive out of the way. End up prone.'

 

MB ALWAYS ends up prone. No Breakfall or Acrobatics roll is going to get him out of this one; he's prone. Which means that when the next Phase comes around, he's still prone, and he has to spend half a phase standing. I believe UMA gets to go first and, since MB cannot DFC without being properly oriented, he can't go that route; gotta Abort to a Dodge instead, at which point I'm presuming UMA knocks him into silly-land -- or at least STUNS him.

 

So presuming an equal SPD, unequal DEX, Monkey Boy's first Abort to DFC will let him dive out of the way of that wicked punch/kick/whatever. But then ... the very next Phase, he's toast.

 

As for 'I don't like this scenario', okay -- but Defense Wins is the way the HERO system is built. *shrugs* If you absolutely must have this power, I'd be mean and say +2 minimum -- because it IS potentially unbalancing.

 

And a big "yup" on always being prone when you DFC. The ability specifically states that neither Breakfall nor Acrobatics can be used to avoid the penalties or being prone at the end. It even specifies that you can't use either skill as a Complimentary Skill for the DEX roll. Though it actually does note that you CAN use Breakfall to stand as a 0 Phase action when you are next allowed to act.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Prone is far more of a problem if MB doesn't have a speed advantage, or a DEX advantage. If he does he certainly can use breakfall/acrobatics to kippup as a 0 phase action, and he's golden: the main problem with DFC vanishes like morning mist.

 

However, as to 'situational use' rather than being arbitrary about it, if you adopt the +1 DCV per 1" moved against targeted attacks and make the DEX roll opposed, generally you are going to be better off using some other maneouvre; the problem solves itself.

[archermoo]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Prone is far more of a problem if MB doesn't have a speed advantage, or a DEX advantage. If he does he certainly can use breakfall/acrobatics to kippup as a 0 phase action, and he's golden: the main problem with DFC vanishes like morning mist.

 

However, as to 'situational use' rather than being arbitrary about it, if you adopt the +1 DCV per 1" moved against targeted attacks and make the DEX roll opposed, generally you are going to be better off using some other maneouvre; the problem solves itself.

 

Except that MB doesn't have a DEX advantage over TUMA. It's 13 vs 50, remember? So if they have their next Phase together, MB is still Prone when TUMA attacks.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Except that MB doesn't have a DEX advantage over TUMA. It's 13 vs 50' date=' remember? So if they have their next Phase together, MB is still Prone when TUMA attacks.[/quote']

 

 

OK, MB is in fact one of the Monkey Boys: agent level villains. TUMA is trying to KO them. Assuming they don't stand close enough to be swept or rapid attacked, and assuming htat TUMA can't move fast enough to make a multiple move by worthwhile, all they have to do is DFC every time. Even if TUMA concentrates on them one at a time and could normally take them out in one hit, at best it is going to take twice as long to put them down, at worst...well, you can still DFC from prone, can't you? Given that they are the same speed, TUMA is going to be there all night.

 

It simply is not realistic (either gritty or cinematically realistic). Unrealistic rules break the flow of a game. That is not a good thing.

[archermoo]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

OK, MB is in fact one of the Monkey Boys: agent level villains. TUMA is trying to KO them. Assuming they don't stand close enough to be swept or rapid attacked, and assuming htat TUMA can't move fast enough to make a multiple move by worthwhile, all they have to do is DFC every time. Even if TUMA concentrates on them one at a time and could normally take them out in one hit, at best it is going to take twice as long to put them down, at worst...well, you can still DFC from prone, can't you? Given that they are the same speed, TUMA is going to be there all night.

 

It simply is not realistic (either gritty or cinematically realistic). Unrealistic rules break the flow of a game. That is not a good thing.

 

New location of the goalposts noted.

 

I don't believe the rules are specific on whether or not you can Dive for Cover while prone. I wouldn't allow it personally. So assuming that none of them do anything other than try to escape, TUMA might actually have to swing at them more than once each. It just doesn't stretch my credulity that much, sorry.

 

Though I'll also note that with this and any other optional rules, if you don't like them you should feel free to not use them. They are optional for a reason.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

OK' date=' MB is in fact one of the Monkey Boys: agent level villains. TUMA is trying to KO them. Assuming they don't stand close enough to be swept or rapid attacked, and assuming htat TUMA can't move fast enough to make a multiple move by worthwhile, all they have to do is DFC every time. Even if TUMA concentrates on them one at a time and could normally take them out in one hit, at best it is going to take twice as long to put them down, at worst...well, you can still DFC from prone, can't you?[/quote']

 

First: If they're not close enough to be Swept, UMA doesn't have to worry about them -- THEY can't hit HIM, and he's dealing only with one at a time. Otherwise yes, they're all DFCing a sweep/rapid attack. Maybe they all make it, maybe not. But they're all still prone BEFORE their action (0-Phase kip-up) comes up.

 

Second: I would never allow DFC from prone, especially not a prone-due-to-DFCing. In short, the MBs are screwed.

 

Third: yes, this does mean that it'd take twice as long for UMA to take them all out. But again, this is situational; are these guys trained to always DFC when faced with a superior opponent? No, it isn't a cinematic way of gaming, but having every thug DFC away from UMA isn't very cinematic on the GM's part.

 

Fourth: archermoo, no, you don't have to allow all uses; I'm one who's leery on allowing DFC to generate an 'auto-miss'. It didn't used to; you had to try to guess what the enemy was throwing. Abort to a Dodge? AoE gets you. DFC? Individual attack gets you.

 

Here's a Q: if you used Sweep/Rapid Attack on each one, would they DFC from the first blow, but remain vulnerable to later ones?

 

I think I might also house rule (for the hoser who keeps DFCing his mooks) that if you hit by a certain extraordinary number (5?) you're going to hit them even before they finish DFCing.

[archermoo]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Fourth: archermoo' date=' no, you don't have to allow all uses; I'm one who's leery on allowing DFC to generate an 'auto-miss'. It didn't used to; you had to try to guess what the enemy was throwing. Abort to a Dodge? AoE gets you. DFC? Individual attack gets you.[/quote']

 

Ah, gotcha.

 

Here's a Q: if you used Sweep/Rapid Attack on each one, would they DFC from the first blow, but remain vulnerable to later ones?

 

Well, Sweep is covered in the DFC rules. If you miss someone because they DFC, that counts as a miss and so your Sweep is over.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

New location of the goalposts noted.

 

I don't believe the rules are specific on whether or not you can Dive for Cover while prone. I wouldn't allow it personally. So assuming that none of them do anything other than try to escape, TUMA might actually have to swing at them more than once each. It just doesn't stretch my credulity that much, sorry.

 

Though I'll also note that with this and any other optional rules, if you don't like them you should feel free to not use them. They are optional for a reason.

 

You may choose to see it like that, but the point is, even alone, MB can keep on using DFC and keep avoiding someone who should have hit him first time. That is just silly, and it is silly because of the qway the maneouvre is presented. I appreciate you wouldn't allow it, but if you allow DFC at all there is no good reason not to allow its consecutive use, unless it is an acknowledgement that the rule could do with some tweaking.

I can see no possible proper objection to DFCing from a prone position. It would be perfectly reasonable to assign a penalty to the DEX roll, -2 at most, but 'prone' does not mean you are lying spread eagled on your back unable to move, it just means you are not in a position where you are as free to move as you might otherwise be, hence the DCV penalty. In fact you can voluntarily become prone if you want to, although since Hero changed the way it worked, there is a lot less point in doing so (IIRC 'prone' used to make it MORE difficult to hit you at range as the attacker was clearly targeting a much smaller profile.)

[archermoo]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

You may choose to see it like that' date=' but the point is, even alone, MB can keep on using DFC and keep avoiding someone who should have hit him first time. That is just silly, and it is silly because of the qway the maneouvre is presented. I appreciate you wouldn't allow it, but if you allow DFC at all there is no good reason not to allow its consecutive use, unless it is an acknowledgement that the rule could do with some tweaking.[/font']

 

I can see no possible proper objection to DFCing from a prone position. It would be perfectly reasonable to assign a penalty to the DEX roll, -2 at most, but 'prone' does not mean you are lying spread eagled on your back unable to move, it just means you are not in a position where you are as free to move as you might otherwise be, hence the DCV penalty. In fact you can voluntarily become prone if you want to, although since Hero changed the way it worked, there is a lot less point in doing so (IIRC 'prone' used to make it MORE difficult to hit you at range as the attacker was clearly targeting a much smaller profile.)

 

And I don't see any reason to assume that you can Dive for Cover when prone, particularly when you are prone as the result of a maneuver penalty (like the one for Diving for Cover) rather than being that way on purpose. Being prone after a Dive for Cover basically means that you are indeed lying spreadeagle on the floor, though more likely on your front rather than your back. Not a good position from which to start a new frantic dive.

 

Though even if you do allow your 13 DEX Monkey Boys to Dive for Cover over and over again, they'll still all get tagged pretty quickly. They only have a 37.5% chance of failing the first time. But there is a 61% chance they'll fail when given two chance. And a more than 75% chance that they'll fail at least once in three tries.

 

And again, Dive for Cover isn't part of the core rules. It is an optional rule. If you don't like the way it works, don't use it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

...

I don't believe the rules are specific on whether or not you can Dive for Cover while prone.

...

 

The book isn't but the FAQ mentions it.

 

Hero System 5th Edition, Revised ■ Chapter Two 381

TARGET PRONE

A prone target (i.e., one who’s lying on the ground) is at half DCV. However, he may have Concealment, making it harder to hit him. Many attacks and other situations can cause a character to become prone. If a character wants to drop prone voluntarily (perhaps to get behind Concealment quickly, avoid being run over by a train, or the like), he must use a Zero Phase Action (this is a defensive Action he can Abort to). Getting back to one’s feet takes a Half Phase Action (unless the character uses Breakfall; see page 51). Neither dropping down nor standing up costs END.

 

394 ■ Combat And Adventuring Hero System 5th Edition, Revised

NONAREA ATTACKS

Dive For Cover is most useful for avoiding attacks that cover a large area, such as Explosions and Area Of Effect attacks. However, characters can use it to avoid regular (non-area-affecting) attacks as well. For example, a character who desperately wants to avoid being chopped in two by an axe-wielding Denebian autochthon could Dive For Cover to get away from his attacker. If a character successfully Dives For Cover this way, the non-area attack automatically misses; if the Dive For Cover roll fails, the attacker makes his Attack Roll at +2 OCV.

 

When a character Dives For Cover to avoid a non-area attack, he’s not required to literally dive behind cover or the like — all he has to do is travel far enough to get away from the effect of the attack. In many cases, moving 1” out of the way does the trick; in other cases, he may have to move further. The GM may, of course, establish a minimum distance based on the nature of the attack, or specify that the character has to Dive in a particular direction. For example, a character trying to Dive For Cover to avoid an attack by a spear-wielding opponent should have to Dive at least the length of the spear. In any event, a clever opponent may try to take advantage of the character’s ½ DCV if he simply dives a mere 1” away. As always, common sense, dramatic sense, special effects, and the GM’s discretion should apply.

 

from the FAQ:

http://www.herogames.com/rulesFAQ.htm?ruleset=&section=&keywords=prone&dateString=

 

Can a character Dive For Cover two or more times in a row?

 

Yes, assuming special effects and timing allow for that (which is a matter of GM’s discretion). For example, a character who Dives For Cover and ends up prone, but is attacked in a later Segment before he’s had a chance to get to his feet, might not be allowed to Dive For Cover again, since he hasn’t had a chance to reorient himself and get into a position that would allow him to move quickly again. On the other hand, in some genres a GM might want to let characters who are “prone” Dive For Cover by scrambling, rolling, or crawling out of the way.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

If a character were to DFC more than once in a row and fails on any attempt besides the first he will have an effective DCV = (baseDCV - 2)/2 .

 

That's going to make most anyone easy to hit.

 

I haven't had a chance to look at the following reference to UMA from the FAQ yet but it seems reasonable that multiple DFC's would impose a penalty to the DEX roll.

 

How does being prone affect a character’s OCV (both for attacking and Blocking), if at all?

 

See UMA 159, which discusses the subject of groundfighting. The GM could certainly apply the same penalties to a prone character fighting a standing one.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Would anyone allow this?

 

A Step Far Enough: Running 1", Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; Trigger is being attacked and the 1" of running is always a step from the point of aim of the attack; +1) (5 Active Points)

 

5 points active and real

[Hyper-Man]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Would anyone allow this?

 

A Step Far Enough: Running 1", Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; Trigger is being attacked and the 1" of running is always a step from the point of aim of the attack; +1) (5 Active Points)

 

5 points active and real

 

Sure,

 

A character with this would be ineffectual since someone glaring at him* would cause it to go off at inopportune times.

 

*A PRE attack.

[Comic]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Would anyone allow this?

 

A Step Far Enough: Running 1", Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; Trigger is being attacked and the 1" of running is always a step from the point of aim of the attack; +1) (5 Active Points)

 

5 points active and real

I'd allow it, but since the trigger needs to know about the attack.. it'd only go off after the damage was received, unless the character had some sort of wonky danger sense/future clairsentience thing, too. That, or it'd be subject to false alarms like crazy.

[CTaylor]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

I built a teleport for my high end speedster that went off when he sensed an AE attack incoming, and with his danger sense (super fast senses) he usually did.

[casualplayer]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Unless the GM is nice enough to blatantly tell you, how the heck do you even know the incoming attack is an AE attack? Talk about your meta-gaming, enthusiastically encouraged by the meta-Dodge known as Dive for Cover. Just jettison the silly manuever and replace it with Flying Dodge. Now that we have rules for incorporating movement into manuevers we don't need the relic of DFC.

[Alibear]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Well, many AoE attacks are blatantly obviously AoE.

 

No point dodging, DexBoy, that 40 foot wall of water thundering towards you is actually and Area of Effect attacK!!

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

I'd allow it' date=' but since the trigger needs to know about the attack.. it'd only go off after the damage was received, unless the character had some sort of wonky danger sense/future clairsentience thing, too. That, or it'd be subject to false alarms like crazy.[/quote']

 

I'm not sure that 'trigger' needs to use the senses the character has, but if you want 'realism', danger sense specifically allows you to sense danger in time to react, so we can buy that. I mean, you can come up with internal logic for about everything. I've got an always on subconscious version of precognition. I know when I'm about to suffer damage and I move out of the way.

 

The point is the build is ridiculously effective - it more or less prevents you taking any damage at all (unless it is AoE) - if you allow a mechanic that says 'if you can move away from a point of aim you automatically avoid an attack targeted at you'.

 

You allow this and no one can hit anyone. SPD 12, DEX 50 Hero can't hit SPD 1 DEX 5 Sluggo.

 

I'm using this to illustrate why I think the DFC mechanic (and the 'flying dodge maneuvre) are flawed in principle and so need to be changed.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

I'm not sure that 'trigger' needs to use the senses the character has, but if you want 'realism', danger sense specifically allows you to sense danger in time to react, so we can buy that. I mean, you can come up with internal logic for about everything. I've got an always on subconscious version of precognition. I know when I'm about to suffer damage and I move out of the way.

 

The point is the build is ridiculously effective - it more or less prevents you taking any damage at all (unless it is AoE) - if you allow a mechanic that says 'if you can move away from a point of aim you automatically avoid an attack targeted at you'.

 

You allow this and no one can hit anyone. SPD 12, DEX 50 Hero can't hit SPD 1 DEX 5 Sluggo.

 

I'm using this to illustrate why I think the DFC mechanic (and the 'flying dodge maneuvre) are flawed in principle and so need to be changed.

 

The problem here Sean is that you are basing your argument on DEX, SPD and one power alone.

 

It's been pointed out many times before on other similar threads that 4 points in a Speedster's multipower will get him an equivalent result using Desolidification. The argument against Flying Dodge and a Triggered Movement needs to be balanced against that example. That is, if someone presented you a speedster with Desol in a multipower slot would you allow it? And if so why wouldn't you allow them to also purchase a Flying Dodge as part of a Speedster MA package or a triggered Movement like your example?

 

I don't see any reason to allow one but not the other two.

[Alibear]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

The desolid of a speedster has to have a common way of hitting him as a drawback. But it's a problem I never considered. Needs more thought.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

The desolid of a speedster has to have a common way of hitting him as a drawback. But it's a problem I never considered. Needs more thought.

 

Not necessarily, the Pre-Crisis Barry Allen Flash was immune to pretty much anything not designed to affect him when he 'vibrated his molecules'. That sounds like the attacks that DID affect him had Affects Desol on them.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

The problem here Sean is that you are basing your argument on DEX, SPD and one power alone.

 

It's been pointed out many times before on other similar threads that 4 points in a Speedster's multipower will get him an equivalent result using Desolidification. The argument against Flying Dodge and a Triggered Movement needs to be balanced against that example. That is, if someone presented you a speedster with Desol in a multipower slot would you allow it? And if so why wouldn't you allow them to also purchase a Flying Dodge as part of a Speedster MA package or a triggered Movement like your example?

 

I don't see any reason to allow one but not the other two.

 

I probably ought not to get into some of my more esoteric objections to certain uses of multipowers right now:) The thing is though that is a 4 point spend but on a 40 point power. You can add +8d6 Hand attack for 4 points in a multipower, and that doesn't mean that extra DCs for martial arts ought to be on a par.

 

Ultimately, cost is almost irrelevant - what really matters is this: is the game made more or less enjoyable by the inclusion of DCF/Flying Dodge?

 

Personally it doesn't cause me too many problems, but then I've carefully avoided letting people know just how useful DFC can be and I'm not inclined to allow Flying Dodge in martial arts packages. I have seen how bloody awkward they can make the game when used with tactical aplomb.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

I probably ought not to get into some of my more esoteric objections to certain uses of multipowers right now:) The thing is though that is a 4 point spend but on a 40 point power. You can add +8d6 Hand attack for 4 points in a multipower, and that doesn't mean that extra DCs for martial arts ought to be on a par.

 

Ultimately, cost is almost irrelevant - what really matters is this: is the game made more or less enjoyable by the inclusion of DCF/Flying Dodge?

 

Personally it doesn't cause me too many problems, but then I've carefully avoided letting people know just how useful DFC can be and I'm not inclined to allow Flying Dodge in martial arts packages. I have seen how bloody awkward they can make the game when used with tactical aplomb.

 

Flying Dodge is a super-speedster specific MA package maneuver.

NON-speedsters shouldn't have access to it. Period.

 

DFC is an OPTIONAL rule (at least in 5e/5er) and using a Triggered Movement example (which appears to be a super-power if not a super-speedster specific one) to make a case against it is a huge stretch.

 

DFC is NOT automatic.

Consecutive uses of it (if even allowed) carry huge risk FinalDCV=(BaseDCV-2)/2 if the roll is missed after the first attempt.

It only affects ONE ATTACK.

Yes, it's tactical use can stretch out the survival of an otherwise outclassed character in HTH combat. However, the character is going TOTALLY defensive. Since movement is being used the character is also spending END (unlike what happens with a simple Dodge or Block). So even when consecutive uses of DFC are allowed the character doing so will have a limit to the # of attempts based purely on END usage.

 

DFC is optional because it more detailed than other maneuvers and raises the complexity of combat in general. It's inclusion a campaign should be taken into consideration when building any character that is considered a combat expert of any kind. That character should have a method to deal with DFC (like Comic's AOE example).

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Flying Dodge is a super-speedster specific MA package maneuver.

NON-speedsters shouldn't have access to it. Period.

 

DFC is an OPTIONAL rule (at least in 5e/5er) and using a Triggered Movement example (which appears to be a super-power if not a super-speedster specific one) to make a case against it is a huge stretch.

 

DFC is NOT automatic.

Consecutive uses of it (if even allowed) carry huge risk FinalDCV=(BaseDCV-2)/2 if the roll is missed after the first attempt.

It only affects ONE ATTACK.

Yes, it's tactical use can stretch out the survival of an otherwise outclassed character in HTH combat. However, the character is going TOTALLY defensive. Since movement is being used the character is also spending END (unlike what happens with a simple Dodge or Block). So even when consecutive uses of DFC are allowed the character doing so will have a limit to the # of attempts based purely on END usage.

 

DFC is optional because it more detailed than other maneuvers and raises the complexity of combat in general. It's inclusion a campaign should be taken into consideration when building any character that is considered a combat expert of any kind. That character should have a method to deal with DFC (like Comic's AOE example).

 

One on one your DCV doesn't matter if you can keep DFCing.

 

I'm shocked - shocked - that you believe flying dodge should be for speedsters only. What sort of character do you play?

 

My point is that I'm not aginst DFC altogether, I just think it could be improved.