"Never Miss" powers

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Only effecting one specific person in the area would be an advantage' date=' not a limitation, especially if it doesn't require an attack roll to hit that person.[/quote']

 

That depends on how many people you wanted to hit. For +3/4 it could be Selective AoE Accurate, targetting any number of people I want in that Megascale area and striking each with a DCV of 3. Cutting down from anyone I want (eg. that whole VIPER cell) to one target seems much more limiting.

[Silbeg]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

You know, I don't get people that want to have "Always Hit" powers, perfect invulnerability, etc.

 

Part of the fun of a game is being able to achieve victory against great odds. Most, if not all, of the memorable fights I have had in RPGs have been the ones that the party/team/what-have-you was up on the ropes, nearing death, and managed to squeak by by the skin of their teeth.

 

Often, it is the misses that loom larger in one' memories... like the time that "Sparky", my dwarf Wizard (in a D&D3.0 game) was finally able to cast his first fireball. We were up against a horde of goblins, and a few ogres... Sparky let fly with his might spell... the dice were rolled... 1.... 1.... 2.... 1.... 1....

 

 

6 damage? Even the goblins that didn't save weren't killed by that one!

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

well, the trigger is just where I derived the new advantage from, the new advantage isn't actually firing another shot if the first misses, it just doesn't miss in the first place. My curiosity with the trigger was that it would be bought as a naked advantage for the power. So you would use the power normally and if it missed then the naked trigger would apply to it and activate. I wasn't sure if that was legal within the rules though, having the naked advantage only apply when the trigger actually occurs.

 

I like the idea of the no normal evasion, although it ends up being equally expensive once you have to buy does body for it as well.

 

Because you couldn't use a naked advantage (a seperate special power) after an attack - you'd have to decide to sue i t before, so this is an instance where NA would be less useful than usual. In fact this ability, for no extra cost, to switch advantages on and off is one of my biggest beefs with the whole idea of NA.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Why not this:

 

2d6 RKA, Area Effect (1 hex; +1/2), Megascale (1 hex = 1 km; +1/4) (52 Active Points), Only Affects One Specific Target in Area Effect (-?)

 

...because it uses megascale, and, in 99 cases out of 100, I hate megascale?

 

I'm all for using the Hero rules to accomplish things rather than adding a new rule every time we come up with a difficult concept but, I simply don't like it, and this is a case wehre I'd rather see a custom advantage than a hodge podge.

 

Anyway, I come back to the question: how do you justify this ability in game? Other than a manipulation of mechanical systems, what are you saying is happening here?

 

Even with all the 'never miss' powers suggested at the start of th epost, or the AoE megastcale atatcks or even a custom advantage, what if someone buys desolid, defined as a perfect dodge? You'd need affects desolid too.

 

What if someone buys +50 ED defined as the ability to sense and avoid energy discharges? Well, you'd need some other way around that: NND, AVLD, whatever.

 

Cunning as KA's idea about a miss being considered a 'never took the shot' I have concerns that you are getting free charges, and even the cunning 'sense when I'm about to miss and don't take the shot' implies, if you think about it, a determinable future - there must be more than one possibility if you 'saw' yourself miss, because there is clearly the option of NOT taking the shot, so there must ALSO be a future in which you didn't shoot at all. That implies that if you see yourself hitting there must also be alternatives...

 

What we need here is not just a mechganic or construct to acheive an end, we need a reason WHY someone would not miss. Then, my friends, we have a nice firm foundation upon which to build the very power you are after.

 

Ultimately, you are not going to accomplish

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

You know' date=' I don't get people that want to have "Always Hit" powers, perfect invulnerability, etc.[/quote']I blame xD&D's Magic Missile spell for the "always hit" thing.

 

Invulnerability doesn't bother me as long as it's limited. "Nothing can hurt me!" is boring and has very little precedent in fiction. But "I'm immune to fire!" or some such is much less unbalancing, and seems to be seen more in the source material.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Why not this:

 

2d6 RKA, Area Effect (1 hex; +1/2), Megascale (1 hex = 1 km; +1/4) (52 Active Points), Only Affects One Specific Target in Area Effect (-?)

 

Only effecting one specific person in the area would be an advantage' date=' not a limitation, especially if it doesn't require an attack roll to hit that person.[/quote']Plus, IMO it violates the guiding principle of MegaScale, which is that it can't be used in personal combat scale.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

I blame xD&D's Magic Missile spell for the "always hit" thing.

 

Invulnerability doesn't bother me as long as it's limited. "Nothing can hurt me!" is boring and has very little precedent in fiction. But "I'm immune to fire!" or some such is much less unbalancing, and seems to be seen more in the source material.

 

...although, IIRC, all that DnD did was remove the need to roll to hit, which is far from saying that it always hit - there were a number of ways to prevent a MM from hitting. In practice, spending 10 or 20 points on OCV levels for the specific attack creates a power that never misses, if only because it costs a lot more to buy that many levels in DCV.

[CTaylor]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

That's the thing: you could buy like +15 OCV, only for this one spell for fairly cheap, probably cheaper than the Always hits or NNE others have proposed here. It would be very similar (good luck missing with a 20+ OCV), but the addition of a specific rule makes building things faster and easier. A lot of rules in the Hero system are shortcuts that save time and writing to say the same thing, such as all the talents now.

 

Always Hits is a perfect fit for the game and I hope Steve slips it into 6th edition.

[Bloodstone]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Always Hit's would need some special rules for Linked powers.

[Alibear]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

(good luck missing with a 20+ OCV)' date=' [/quote']

 

Depends how high powered the campaign is. In our campaign, started in the 80's, both martial artists in the group could generate DCVs in the low to mid 20s.

[Vestnik]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

what if someone buys desolid' date=' defined as a perfect dodge? [/quote']

 

Which I would never allow. I hate the idea of a "perfect dodge."

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Always Hit's would need some special rules for Linked powers.

 

...and something for the autofire/rapid fire rules too: hitting with every hit would be a bit monster. Mind you you could do a something like this:

 

Always Hits +1 advantage

 

This advantage allows a single shot per phase to hit the intended target without a roll to hit, so long as it is within range and LOS. Such hits can be blocked or missile deflected (in which case you roll to hit normally, but only to determine if the block/MD works). They cannot be dodged, and DFC is ineffective unless it takes the target out of LOS or range.

 

For +1/4 twice as many shots per phase will hit, so for +1 1/4 you could be assured of hitting with two shots from the same power, for instance if you have autofire or use the rapid fire maneouvre.

 

'Always Hit' attacks cannot be linked to another attack power unless that attack power also has the same advantage.

[CTaylor]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

In the writeup for Always Hits I did, autofire attacks are considered the same as AE attacks, so the advantage doubles. Linked you'd just have to buy Always Hits with both powers, I would think.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

In the writeup for Always Hits I did' date=' autofire attacks are considered the same as AE attacks, so the advantage doubles. Linked you'd just have to buy Always Hits with both powers, I would think.[/quote']

 

 

That'scool but there are other ways do do multiple attacks in a single phase than using autofire. Moreover there are a lot of maneouvres that apply a penalty to OCV, and a penalty is meaningless when you are not rolling to hit.

[Egyptoid]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

yeah, but both the perfect dodge

and the always hits are in reputable comics

 

 

Darkseid shoots those revoltium beams from his eyes:dyn:

 

&

 

Spiderman pretty much never gets tagged:angst:

[CTaylor]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Moreover there are a lot of maneouvres that apply a penalty to OCV, and a penalty is meaningless when you are not rolling to hit.

 

Well you know what they say about limitations that don't limit. If someone tries to somehow buy a maneuver that always hits and has an OCV penalty I think I know what my response will be, don't you?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

The only way I've ever done an "always hits" type thing was a sharpshooter character of mine. I talked to the Ref about it and we decided that the most elegant solution in the situation was a Perk. If I rolled a miss, the character just relalized that his shot would miss ahead of time and didn't take it.

 

The only real game effect was that I didn't waste charges on misses. Worked out pretty well and got me what I was looking for.

 

As to powers that cannot miss their target, I've never liked them and so have very little interest in modeling them in HERO.

\

 

I am so stealing this idea.

[Gideon]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

yeah' date=' but both the [i']perfect dodge[/i]

and the always hits are in reputable comics

 

 

Darkseid shoots those revoltium beams from his eyes:dyn:

 

&

 

Spiderman pretty much never gets tagged:angst:

 

Darkseid's Omega Beams are built as Summon 1,517-point energy attack, Slavishly Devoted (+1) (606 Active Points). Read "Nega-Beam" on page 261-262 Until Superpowers Database Revised for the full description.

 

And as for Spidey, that pretty much part covers it.

 

Also, Wayside why do you find it hard to believe that a character can DFC 1" to get out of the way of an attack? I would hope that moving 2 meters (6 1/2 feet) would get me out of the way of a laser beam or a single bullet.

[casualplayer]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

yeah' date=' but both the [i']perfect dodge[/i]

and the always hits are in reputable comics

 

 

Darkseid shoots those revoltium beams from his eyes:dyn:

 

&

 

Spiderman pretty much never gets tagged:angst:

 

In the animated series, Luthor evaded Darkseid's Omega Beams by slipping and falling on his can. Superman has dodged them in the comics and I think some other Kryptonians have also along with some members of the Batman Family. Seems I recall Deathstroke dodging it from way back in the X-Men/Teen Titans crossover.

 

Spider-Man gets tagged all the time by fearsome characters like the Vulture and the Owl. He dodges normal bullets fired by normal people real well but he gets pasted on a regular basis by others.

 

Net +4 CV on the target is virtually "Never Miss," and as close as I'm ever willing to let a player get. Anything else is just asking for a sneaky player to break your game or inciting a table-flipping. EDM UAA Never Miss?

[Wayside]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Also, Wayside why do you find it hard to believe that a character can DFC 1" to get out of the way of an attack? I would hope that moving 2 meters (6 1/2 feet) would get me out of the way of a laser beam or a single bullet.

 

I don't have any trouble believing diving 2 meters would get you out of the way of an attack. The conceptual problem is that the person firing should be able to correct for the dive. Once a person pulls the trigger on the gun, you've been hit. You would have to be diving out of hopes to make it harder for him to hit you when he does (ie dodging but with actual movement involved)

It's troublesome that by diving 1 degree out of the line of the attack, it is completely avoided and there is no way to correct for their dodge. Especially when you are for example, firing an ak-47 or other full-auto, you can't correct your stream of bullets to follow them. Which doesn't make much sense.

It would be much more appropriate in my opinion if diving for cover simply gave you the benefits of dodge versus directed attacks. rather than automatically thwarting them.

[Comic]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

The Punisher once waited for Spidey to dive for cover, then while Spiderman was in the air and couldn't alter his trajectory shot off his web-shooters.

 

Which shows that at least one of the Punisher's ways of hitting impossible targets wasn't AoE Accurate.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

The Punisher once waited for Spidey to dive for cover, then while Spiderman was in the air and couldn't alter his trajectory shot off his web-shooters.

 

Which shows that at least one of the Punisher's ways of hitting impossible targets wasn't AoE Accurate.

 

I think it show the problems with trying to build a system that does everything: the trouble is the source material is not consistent, so the rules simulating it woudln't be either. DFC is a maneouvre that was designed to avoid AoE attacks but LOGICALLY should be able to be used to avoid targeted attacks too.

 

What I'd do, personally, is this: treat AoE and personally targetted atatcks differently if DFXC is used.

 

Basically each +1 you roll by allow you to move 1", cool? . In my little world, that woudl only affect AoE atatcks: BUT it ALSO gives you +1 DCV per 1" you dive. If that +1 DCV allows you to avoid a personally targeted attack, it misses, if not, it hits, even if the DFC was sucessful. Obviously we would be getting rid of the 'flying dodge' maneouvre, or amending it significantly.

 

In the above example, SM was DFCing but P was good enough to hit his web shooters despite the DVC bonus. Of course that also means he was good enough to actually hit SM, but that isn't what happens in comics.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

duplicate

[CTaylor]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

DFC is a maneouvre that was designed to avoid AoE attacks but LOGICALLY should be able to be used to avoid targeted attacks too.

 

OK, but in my game since you have to be able to perceive an attack to react to it and dive for cover, you can't do it with any attack that reaches you faster than 1/10th of a second. Logically.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

DFC is a maneouvre that was designed to avoid AoE attacks but LOGICALLY should be able to be used to avoid targeted attacks too.

 

OK, but in my game since you have to be able to perceive an attack to react to it and dive for cover, you can't do it with any attack that reaches you faster than 1/10th of a second. Logically.

 

So you're house rule means that Autofire now includes IPE (Invisible Power Effects).

 

And this is an improvement over the RAW (Rules As Written) why?