An observation on two systems

[Catseye]

This may improve as I get my HERO feet back under me, but I'm noticing an ongoing trend... please try not to react defensively to the second half of this. This is just my experiences. If people are having better experiences, I'd like some pointers or suggestions.

 

I have run two systems over the past 2 years, HERO and TORG.

 

I love character creation in HERO. I feel like I can really create original characters that are exactly what I'm trying to accomplish. I hate character creation in TORG. I have this dirty feeling that despite the outward trappings, all characters are really about the same.

 

I love running TORG. I find it easy and breezy. I have the tools to reduce any off thing the players through at me down to a difficulty check practically without thinking. The players have plenty of tools to create drama and save themselves from bad situations so little to nay of that falls on my shoulders.

 

I don't like running HERO these days. I always feel like I'm drowning in the rules, and missing things. If I don't get the balance exactly right then the dramatic pacing goes to hell. In the end, I find myself cheating so much to keep the game going and functional it almost doesn't matter what the characters are on paper.

 

In the end, it seems to me like HERO excels at what I would think of as "PvP" from my world of computer game development. When its just a small number of characters fighting (which to be fair is most of what a supers game is) it works great. When you try to take it to larger story issues though it gets unwieldly.

 

Help?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: An observation on two systems

 

I don't have any experience with TORG, so I can't compare them directly. But do think it's fair to say that the same level detail that makes HERO System character creation so satisfying can also sometimes seem overbearing or overwhelming when running the game. That's especially true when running for inexperienced HERO players (who can't help you as much with keeping track of their own character's options). It also depends a lot on what kind of game you're running (both in genre-and-story terms, and in mechanical terms like point totals, rules options, etc.)

 

Some of tricks listed in the rulebook for speeding up combat can help with not disrupting the dramatic pacing. Even if your combats aren't taking too long per se, some of the suggestions relate to streamlining things in general, which can help.

 

And of course, as you noted, some of it is doubtless just a matter of "getting your HERO feet back under you." Things that can seem clunky or cumbersome when you're rusty can slide by just fine when you're in practice.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: An observation on two systems

 

Catseye, to some extent I agree with you. HERO is definitely more detail-oriented and tactical than many other games, and puts considerable responsibility on the GM's shoulders for many of the decisions and rulings about his game. Some people thrive on that, others find it burdensome. And both reactions are fair based on what you and your players want play to be like. But many of us have developed "rules paranoia" at some time in our gaming careers, where we feel a constant dread that we're missing some important rule in a given situation.

 

My first suggestion to you would be, strip the rules down to a level you're comfortable with. Minimize the optional stuff. Use some of the play-speeding alternatives in the rulebook. Don't be afraid to fudge a die roll that would spoil the fun the players are having, like if they've fought hard to reach a climactic battle with the main villain, and one of their crucial scenario-winning rolls fizzles. If the players want to do something appropriately dramatic, don't sweat over how the official rules adjudicates this precise situation if you can't remember or it would be too long or complicated. Just have them roll for their most applicable Skill or Characteristic, and if they succeed let them do the cool stuff they want.

 

I should also mention that there are a number of HERO subsystems to allow players to reroll results that are bad for them, do "dramatic editing" of the game environment, and other metagame mechanical adjustments. One of them is official, "Heroic Action Points," and is detailed in the Pulp HERO sourcebook. It's essentially an extrapolation of the Fifth Edition Luck Power. There are also several fan-created mechanics on the Internet, which we could point you to if desired.

 

Ultimately, the rules are supposed to be there to help make the game more enjoyable. I say keep what you find is enjoyable, change or ignore what isn't. I assure you, HERO is robust enough that you won't break it that way.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: An observation on two systems

 

It all in your style I suppose. I'm not familiar with TORG but I have played a number of rules light systems and they are actually stressful to GM for me.The more detailed rules in HERO free up my energies for more creative stuff. HERO has an answer which is easy to find and makes sense for almost anything the PCs do while more rules light systems I find I often make bad guys less effective than they should be and my energies are all used filling in the details as my players do things. I'm exhausted after running these " quicker ,easier" systems because I feel I have to work so hard on the fly where the rules make you wing an effect when the players do something clever

 

Then again my players love doing unusual things and want their clever actions to have logical and consistent effects. We like the crunchy but I know that's not for everybody.

[Flames]

Re: An observation on two systems

 

What I find helpful is having a good grasp of just whatever rules are going to come into use. If none of the PCs or NPCs has Teleport or Entangle, it isn't necessary to study up on those rules. But if someone has Find Weakness, a quick skim over the rules for that ability before play even starts can alleviate the hassle of having to look that up during play.

[Nevenall]

Re: An observation on two systems

 

I hear what you're saying. I always have a conflict between keeping things running smoothly and looking up a rule so I can rememeber it next time. You might consider starting with the smallest set of rules you can and then slowly expanding the avaliable options.

[pawsplay]

Re: An observation on two systems

 

Torg has P-points and cards. HERO has Cromm, an uncaring god.

 

Have you ever considered giving people special Torg-like powers? How about a VPP power that allows players to customize a "deck" before each game with various boosts? That would help with dramatic pacing, I think.

[Mike W]

Re: An observation on two systems

 

I think HERO has plenty of ways for players to extricate themselves if their characters are well built and the players are thinking. But those come from the character sheet more than an arbitrary "get out of jail free" points that some games have. I think that getting your feet wet a bit more will help a lot. For all the massive sets of rules and such, you can reduce almost everything you need for most sessions to a single cheat sheet, one side only. The rest is flavor and judgments.

 

HERO does require you to pay a little more careful attention to the level of difficulty of the villains, which takes some getting used to. Sometimes things you don't think are that big of a deal can turn out to be amazingly effective(make a group full of martial artists and see what all that extra speed does, even if the attacks are relatively weak). TORG, the little I remember, is almost geared toward the players having an easy out if they just hang onto the right random draw cards they get for when they really need them.

[Sean Waters]

Re: An observation on two systems

 

I have not played Torg for years, and that was first edition. I liked it a lot - I tend to collect rules systems

 

Hero is bloody aggravating sometimes ebcause there are an awful lot of rules, not all of them intuitive and not all of them where you'd expect. Moreover, the characters are relatively comlpex (14 characteristics - noone beats that!) and can be incredibly varied.

 

A lot of the time the comlpexities of Hero can be mitigated int he character creation stage. Be wary of any power that takes half a column to decribe with advantages and limitations

 

Hero often requires you to look stuff up before you can work out what you can do, skill lists can be extensive and resulting is a multi-stage process, certainly for combat (hit, damage, subtract defences, apply final result, apply collateral effects). Not actually difficult, just not that quick.

 

When I'm GMing I do cheat outrageously, and one of the ways I tend to do this is with damage rolls: I play superhero games most frequently (although I'm about to start running a Hero version of Shadowrun), so what I often do is this:

 

10d6 EB = 7d6 (average damage) = 24/7 points +3d6.

 

Why?

 

Well:

 

1. I don't like standard damage and, in 95% of cases can't see any use for the rule at all - average damage is generally fairer all round.

 

2. If you nkow most of the damage to start off with then getting to a total is much quicker.

 

3. The 3d6 is the roll to hit - so I don't need to roll twice.

 

So, if the 10d6 EB hits, with a roll of 9 (3,2,4) it does 24+9 = 33 stun and 7+3 = 10 Body. Real quick, some variation in result.

 

Also, when creating characters, give the less math-keen players nice round defence values: it is SO much easier to subtract 20 from a stun total than 18, for some, at least.

 

As for gettign things rolling and doing stuff on the fly, I really recommend sitting down and working out a character sheet that suits your style of play.

 

For example I like to have a seperate sheet with certain values on, as a look up, rather than hoking round the character sheet every time: record the base DEX, INT, EGO and PRE rolls and you are well ahead already, as most skills are based directly on those numbers.

 

Don't EVERY look up a rule during play - if you are not sure, state the rule you'll be using to the group, and, unless anyone strenuously objects, just go for it - and remember to look it up later

 

For example, if someone grabs you do you get an immediate casual strength breakout roll or do you have to abort/wait your phase? Doesn't matter - pick one and announce then do it.

 

Hero can freewheel nicely. there are a lot of rules to remember but it isn;t a test - if you get some of the answers wrong no one cares so long as everyone enjoys the journey. To, you know, mangle a metaphor.

[Sean Waters]

Re: An observation on two systems

 

Oh - power rolls are really useful for a freewheeling feel, and if you want players to pull it out of the hat a lot, build them all with some luck, and use it whenever things look dire!

[Paragon]

Re: An observation on two systems

 

Hero was originally designed in a far more gamist/simulationist way than any more modern superhero game, back in the day when that was kind of the ethic that was growing for all new games. That means it has a lot of tools for making distinction in places you want to make distinction (the whole martial arts system for example).

 

What it isn't, is quick and smooth flowing. Even though it was reasonably crunchy by modern standard, TORG and its descendants Masterbook and Shatterzone were attempts to turn a game-play experience to dramatist ends, and while it didn't work for everyone (the card play could positively interfere with people who wanted to primarily get into their characters heads because it was both elaborate and pretty much disconnected from any in-character process) it did a pretty fair job of producing the flow of certain sorts of stories.

 

So in practice, the systems are trying to do pretty different things.

[sinanju]

Re: An observation on two systems

 

I'm currently investigating the Mutants & Masterminds system. Not so long ago I would have sworn I'd never play a D20 superhero game. But a friend bought the rulebook and I had a chance to look over it. M&M lacks the two things that I hate most about D20--no levels and no classes.

 

I've concluded that it might be a worthwhile system for playing supers after all. Simpler than HERO, but with enough "crunchy" bits to keep the rules lawyer in me happy. Plus, it allows you to build a lot of characters fairly easily that would be difficult to impossible in HERO (at least, without insane levels of points and a very tolerant GM).

 

If you're feeling overwhelmed by HERO, M&M might be worth a look.

[Paragon]

Re: An observation on two systems

 

I'm currently investigating the Mutants & Masterminds system. Not so long ago I would have sworn I'd never play a D20 superhero game. But a friend bought the rulebook and I had a chance to look over it. M&M lacks the two things that I hate most about D20--no levels and no classes.

 

I've concluded that it might be a worthwhile system for playing supers after all. Simpler than HERO, but with enough "crunchy" bits to keep the rules lawyer in me happy. Plus, it allows you to build a lot of characters fairly easily that would be difficult to impossible in HERO (at least, without insane levels of points and a very tolerant GM).

 

If you're feeling overwhelmed by HERO, M&M might be worth a look.

 

M&M has its own issues, but its actually become the superhero game of choice locally for a lot of people, including a lot of long time Hero players.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: An observation on two systems

 

When I'm GMing I do cheat outrageously, and one of the ways I tend to do this is with damage rolls: I play superhero games most frequently (although I'm about to start running a Hero version of Shadowrun), so what I often do is this:

 

10d6 EB = 7d6 (average damage) = 24/7 points +3d6.

 

Why?

 

Well:

 

1. I don't like standard damage and, in 95% of cases can't see any use for the rule at all - average damage is generally fairer all round.

 

2. If you nkow most of the damage to start off with then getting to a total is much quicker.

 

3. The 3d6 is the roll to hit - so I don't need to roll twice.

 

So, if the 10d6 EB hits, with a roll of 9 (3,2,4) it does 24+9 = 33 stun and 7+3 = 10 Body. Real quick, some variation in result.

 

Interesting. If I were going to do this I might couple it with the "upside down" to hit roll idea (3d6 + OCV >= 10 + DCV to hit); otherwise, rolls more likely to hit will do less damage. With a roll of 3, f'rex, your 10d6 attack would do 27 STUN and 7 BODY. Suxx0rz.

[ghost-angel]

Re: An observation on two systems

 

Hero becomes increasingly easier to GM with both experience and a willingness on Players and GMs parts alike to go "Rules? Whatever, this sounded cooler at the time." and let things flow more naturally.

 

You can get lost in rules minutae in many systems, not just Hero. But once gameplay starts I firmly believe in Common And Dramatic Sense as the ultimate arbiter of what can happen.

 

If it sounds cool, moderately plausible and I can't think of reason it can't occur then by all means just go.

[jtelson]

Re: An observation on two systems

 

Hero becomes increasingly easier to GM with both experience and a willingness on Players and GMs parts alike to go "Rules? Whatever, this sounded cooler at the time." and let things flow more naturally.

 

You can get lost in rules minutae in many systems, not just Hero. But once gameplay starts I firmly believe in Common And Dramatic Sense as the ultimate arbiter of what can happen.

 

If it sounds cool, moderately plausible and I can't think of reason it can't occur then by all means just go.

 

If you think he's kidding about rules try playing Rolemaster by the book(s), and that's just a warm up for Mythus.

 

In my opinion, one of the best things you can learn to do as a GM is say "This is my ruling for now, we can work out after the session or through-out the next week how it's gonna work from here forward, but tonight this is how it goes." after a couple of times you can truncate it down to "This is my ruling for now..." and eventually you can stop saying "dot dot dot"

 

As to Torg vs. Hero, I love the hero system but you have never defused a bomb in a game until you've done it using the Torg rules; Fun, and edge of your seat intense.

[Kdansky]

Re: An observation on two systems

 

Interesting. If I were going to do this I might couple it with the "upside down" to hit roll idea (3d6 + OCV >= 10 + DCV to hit); otherwise' date=' rolls more likely to hit will do less damage. With a roll of 3, f'rex, your 10d6 attack would do 27 STUN and 7 BODY. Suxx0rz.[/quote']

 

That may be true, but as a GM, you can counterbalance easily:

 

Instead of 10.5 (on 3d6) your average damage roll will now be around 6 to 7, I suppose, because you only hit from 3 to 9 (usually). That means you can just add another die to reflect that, giving you nearly the same curve again.

For NPCs that's certainly worth it. I also do it, though I used two rolls.

3d6 to hit, afterwards 4d6 + 21 (for 6d6), that's even easy (equalling fast) to calculate, because it is +20 +1. A lot easier than +17 for example.

Fix stun multiplier to 2 and try to have round defenses (15/20/25) if possible, or else 21/22, but not 18 or 19. Ignore END management for NPCs, if you want some, built that one with charges instead, it's easier.

 

But yes, rule look up can get annoying. I will try to enforce a Players Have To Know Their Stuff Too politics next game: If they don't know how grab+throw works, then I'm not allowing them to use it. If they don't know that you can get up instantly if you have breakfall and make your roll, then they burn half a phase.

[Tonio]

Re: An observation on two systems

 

Huh... I replied to a post on some other thread and somehow it ended up here... odd!

[Markdoc]

Re: An observation on two systems

 

The "hero system is hard to GM" thing goes away after a while - unlike many other game systems because while there are a lot of core rules in Hero, they are generally consistent - and they are not being continually added to. So once you've learned the rules, that's pretty much it.

 

I find very often these days that I don't crack open the rules book at all during a gaming session, even when we have intense combats. Last session, for example, we had a combined chase and sword and magic fight taking place in a "town" made up of the hulks of old ships. We had swordfights on swinging rope bridges, on narrow walkways, a sword fight through a window as well as more conventional combats, PCs climbing walls and leaping from roof top to roof top (and then down on top of their opponents), players barricading a door with furniture to stop the bad guys battering it down. We had PCs and NPCs attacking with swords, magical spells, martial arts, furniture, beer jugs, grabs, move-throughs, witty repartee and a proposal of marriage. We had characters with power frameworks, and characters without. In total, 6 PCs and 20+ NPCs were all involved in that one fight.

 

It took less than 2 hours to play through the whole combat, I don't recall any GM cheats or rule bending and I didn't touch the rulebook. And that's not at all unusual for my games*. It just requires a wee bit of practice, but once you've got it down, I find it flows very easily.

 

Cheers, Mark

 

*there are people on the boards who've played in my games before, so you can ask them . But it's not that unusual for me to run combats that involve 20-30 or sometimes more NPCs - or to have two or more major combats within a single session.