Characteristics in an EC

[JmOz]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

I allowed it once for STR, but I did not allow it to give Figured Characteristics, nor did I allow it to take the No Figured Characteristics Limitation (this was 4th Edition, before Steve's clarification of the rule on that). The player quickly gave up on it and bought it normally. I actually thought it was a pretty good deal.

 

With the guidelines that EC's now work under, Characteristics in EC's might be manageable. They get drained along with any other Power, can't add to Figured Characteristics, and really, STR is the only one that doesn't need GM's permission (any more than anything else, that is). STR in an EC couldn't be used in MPA's with other Powers in it (I might not allow it to be used with Martial Attacks, either, but I'm prone to that, anyway).

 

I might be inclined to allow END in one. Why should END Reserves get all the cost breaks? Possibly Recovery, especially if it only affected END.

 

Probably never PD or ED, buy a non-resistant Force Field.

 

The others? Convince me that your EC conception is compelling enough, that it is logical to have the Characteristic drained with all of the other Powers, and that I should ignore the END thing, and sure. This is unlikely, but I don't want to discount someone having something REALLY cool that I can't think of a better way to build. Hey, it could happen.

 

 

I am more and more leaning towards either a weird Aid idea I had, or more likely just applying a -1/4 lim I am calling "Drain Linked", as the big thing for me here is that the characters Dex/Speed should be drained with his other superspeed powers (A FF based on combat luck, and running)

[hfergus]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

I allow it, if the concept just about demands it. I'd have to see it. The costs endurance - it depends on concept. No figured characteristics - never seen a concept that I allowed chars in that did not demand this limitation. Most of the time I find a better concept and good way to buy it without doing this.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

I am more and more leaning towards either a weird Aid idea I had' date=' or more likely just applying a -1/4 lim I am calling "Drain Linked", as the big thing for me here is that the characters Dex/Speed should be drained with his other superspeed powers (A FF based on combat luck, and running)[/quote']

 

I swear that Drained As Part of EC -1/4 is in 5ER somewhere...

[Tech]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

I'm rather lenient with it comes to EC but being lenient doesn't mean I'm stupid. I've seen some real odd EC's but since there are 4 GM's in our campaign, nothing earth-shattering has happened.

[Vestnik]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

 

I might allow an "Adrenaline Overdrive" EC with boosts to STR and SPD for example, but there'd have to be some hefty limits on them like an Enraged Side Effect as well as No Figured on the STR.

 

I just use Aid, Self Only, Costs END.

[drunkonduty]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

>>>> Especially if your EC is "God of Myth and Lore" or "Solar Powered Alien" <<<

 

I saw a guy do exactly this. His character was an Eternal (from Marvel Universe) and he swore black and blue that having everything bar his skills in the EC was justified by the character concept. GM allowed it, I refused to play in the campaign. That was one broken campaign thanks to that particular Mary Sue character. It was better at everything than any other character. Don't allow it!

[Bloodstone]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

I swear that Drained As Part of EC -1/4 is in 5ER somewhere...

 

Well, may not be in 5ER, but it's in UEP on p36

[jtelson]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

Well' date=' may not be in 5ER, but it's in UEP on p36[/quote']

 

I have to assume that's for something that isn't already in the EC.

[Markdoc]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

Like most posters here I'd allow it .... rarely. In general, I'm pretty restrictive about what goes into an EC - it has to be a tightly defined power set.

 

So I would (and in fact have) allowed "Werewolf powers" because, illogical as they seem, they are a set that has been well-hallowed by fiction and are limited in what can be included - either you buy the full set, or none of them: and they come with some severe limitations (the whole moon thing). That set did, IIRC include extra STR and DEX.

 

However, I'd be pretty damn iffy about "Cyborg powers" and something like "alien powers" or "magical powers" is right out.

 

In one game, we actually had a character suggested (it was rejected) who was a straight superman clone, with pretty much everything (super SPD, Super STR, Super INT, Super rPD) in an EC, based on the idea that just like a certain DC character, under specific circumstances, he was just a regular joe in his underwear. My comment was that I wanted an EC too, with the special effect that it contained "superpowers".

 

cheers, Mark

[Comic]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

I might take the opposite position of a person who wants characteristics in an EC, and put the -0 Limitation, "Requires Characteristic Minimum" on the EC as a whole.

 

That way, for example in a speed-based character, if the character's SPD is voluntarily dropped, or is drained or suppressed, etc, the entire EC isn't available.

 

In this way, the theme of the character remains linked game-mechanically, and the player is rewarded for having characteristics in concept, by being rewarded with an EC for their related powers.

 

It's something I'd definitely do for a Marvel Eternal. Their powers come from their innate characteristics, not the other way around, so to speak. Something profoundly powerful enough to damage their Eternal level of power down to a mortal level would certainly rob them of their Eternalness.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

Well' date=' may not be in 5ER, but it's in UEP on p36[/quote']

 

I have to assume that's for something that isn't already in the EC.

 

Yes. It's a Limitation that allows you to attach Powers to an EC that either can't go in it, or don't meet the minimum cost/Active Point requirements. Or simply to build an EC-like suite of Powers.

 

I've used it a couple of times in lieu of an EC for sets of Powers with a wider range of AP than you see in an EC.

[eternal_sage]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

i guess i'm lucky, since all my players are either also GMs or GMs-in-training, so most game balance doesn't really apply. we all just police ourselves and never have any problems. i personally played a game in which i had STR, DEX, CON, and BODY in an EC. it went fine, because it was only 10 points worth (just enough to put him squarely in the 20-30 range) but i actually ended up being the one lagging behind in that game. of course the character was really spread out, having martial arts, flight, and energy projection powers (flight and energy projection in a MP). then again, alot of my powers had activation rolls too. i dunno. but yea, i couldn't put up the damage of our TK character, the speed (SPD or action order) of our speedster character, or the hand to hand of our dedicated brick/martial artist. bleh.

[pawsplay]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

In almost every circumstanceI can think of, you can simply Link extra STR to one of the powers in the EC and get the desired effect.

 

SPD is trickier. I can definitely see the Speedster argument... shouldn't their SPD be connected to their superspeed? But it's probably a deceptive argument. Just about any SFX of an adjustment power that would affect "super speed" would affect both anyway. Just define part of the SPD as a power, not in the EC, and it's now immune to physiological SPD-affecting drains but vulnerable to mutant power affecting drains, etc.

[JmOz]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

>>>> Especially if your EC is "God of Myth and Lore" or "Solar Powered Alien" <<<

 

I saw a guy do exactly this. His character was an Eternal (from Marvel Universe) and he swore black and blue that having everything bar his skills in the EC was justified by the character concept. GM allowed it, I refused to play in the campaign. That was one broken campaign thanks to that particular Mary Sue character. It was better at everything than any other character. Don't allow it!

 

Not saying it should be permited, but I can see an argument being made that an alien package deal created by the GM allowing an EC

 

In otherwords, If I was running a DC based Champs game, having a Kryptonian/Daxamite Package deal that uses an EC could work, but I would have a serious problem with extending the same privalage to a player created race(UNLESS the player is going to get hunted by others of his race...)

 

You know that is an interesting quiestion, In your opinion, If the player takes a disad (thinking hunted) that would drive the weakness of the EC home, say a Drain based villian, or a sause for the goose is gravy for the gander villain, would a more abusive build be permisible...

[nexus]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

Not saying it should be permitted, but I can see an argument being made that an alien package deal created by the GM allowing an EC

 

In otherwords, If I was running a DC based Champs game, having a Kryptonian/Daxamite Package deal that uses an EC could work, but I would have a serious problem with extending the same privilege to a player created race(UNLESS the player is going to get hunted by others of his race...)

 

You know that is an interesting question, In your opinion, If the player takes a disad (thinking hunted) that would drive the weakness of the EC home, say a Drain based villain, or a sauce for the goose is gravy for the gander villain, would a more abusive build be permissible...

 

Hero is an incredibly flexible system but that flexibility comes with a price. It’s very hard to blanket statements about it. Characters are more than just bits and pieces so it’s best to look at the whole package; what’s abusive in one build might be acceptable in another. Campaign guidelines, Rule of X and other means are good rules of thumb but it really takes the GM evaluation. So I’d say yes, its possible that the character’s Disadvantages might mitigate an abusive build.

[Southern Cross]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

I'd also like to point out that you can put an 0END,Self Only Succor, into an EC and have it affect multiple Characteristics.

[Spence]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

I have allowed it in the past, but as an augment, not the main characteristic. And then only with a really good reasoning and limits.

 

For example: A PC that transforms into living stone may want additional STR in addition to what he gains from the Density Increase. I would allow +X STR but only if it was linked into the DI slot.

 

I don't allow bare characteristics in a EC. for example: Slot one is +10 STR.

 

And of course each is case by case.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

Not saying it should be permited, but I can see an argument being made that an alien package deal created by the GM allowing an EC

 

In otherwords, If I was running a DC based Champs game, having a Kryptonian/Daxamite Package deal that uses an EC could work, but I would have a serious problem with extending the same privalage to a player created race(UNLESS the player is going to get hunted by others of his race...)

 

Yeah, but do you need the EC to save points or do you need it because you want all of their powers to be reduced by Kryptonite/Lead? You can easily do the latter with disadvantages and limitations.

 

Now mind you, I'm not saying this is what you're doing with your proposed Speedster.

 

But IMX, most of the time when I see EC's like "Asguardian Might" or "Kryptonian" it's because someone wants to play a character who's concept is just too expensive for the starting points they were given. Sometimes only a little too expensive... and sometimes a hell of a lot.

 

It's like saying you can build Superman on 350 points. Then you build Clark Kent with 350 points sunk into Multiform, Instant Change, Not in the Presence of Green Kryptonite or Red Sun Radiation (-1/2). It does a reasonable job of simulating the character, so long as you ignore the rules suggesting that you not do this sort of thing...

[JmOz]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

Yeah, but do you need the EC to save points or do you need it because you want all of their powers to be reduced by Kryptonite/Lead? You can easily do the latter with disadvantages and limitations.

 

Now mind you, I'm not saying this is what you're doing with your proposed Speedster.

 

But IMX, most of the time when I see EC's like "Asguardian Might" or "Kryptonian" it's because someone wants to play a character who's concept is just too expensive for the starting points they were given. Sometimes only a little too expensive... and sometimes a hell of a lot.

 

It's like saying you can build Superman on 350 points. Then you build Clark Kent with 350 points sunk into Multiform, Instant Change, Not in the Presence of Green Kryptonite or Red Sun Radiation (-1/2). It does a reasonable job of simulating the character, so long as you ignore the rules suggesting that you not do this sort of thing...

 

It has more to do with looking at it as the Kryptonian/Daxamite Power set has a couple key characteristics that I consider valid reasons to sugest (Not accept) a EC for. First there are some well defined powers that make up what they can do (Flight, Superstrength, Invulnerability, Laser eyes, etc...), however some/most of the outlineing powers I would not permit (My kiss is so powerful it makes you forget that night of passion in the fortress...You got to be kidding me). Second, there are multiple characters who have similar abilities, on both sides of the divide. Third, and final, it is rare for him to loose one power, it always seems to be a Parasite drains all of his abilities at once. The second point resonates with me alot

 

Now admitingly most people IME who use EC's (Or global lims like OIHID or OIF:Battle armor) are looking for a cost break, me no exception. The question is wether or not you are willing to pay the cost for the cost break

[eternal_sage]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

when i played Tachyon (the above mention character with an EC) it was the GMs first experience running HERO (he'd only played once before), so i explained very clearly the advantages and disadvantages of the build (i had to point out to him on two occasions the thing about drains), so it was a bit of a rocky start, but ended up fun. benefits of a group of GMs playing, i guess.

[JmOz]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

This is the current build I am thinking of right now, nothing is set in stone. The character is extremly powerful for the game. To help compensate I placed a restrainable limitaion on the EC, which helped me create what I consider a fairly unique speedster concept. The idea is that Mongoose absorbs energy that is channeled into superspeed, the current power level is assuming a fairly normal amount of background energy, I am thinking of either adding an aid to represent building up in high energy places (say at a power plant, or is some science labs), or calling it part of the F/X (Totaly controled, and arbitraily at that, by the GM). Pulse, as a villain is seen as being a energy projector for the most part, but with the unique power to absorb all E-M radiation (A Darkness to the radio group of powers). This will prevent Mongoose from using the superspeed. Viper also knows about this limitation and has devices designed to maximise on it

 

Anyways, thoughts?...By the way I am more than willing to take sugestions on the Aid power...

 

Mongoose

 

Player:

 

Val Char Cost

15 STR 5

12/32 DEX 6

20 CON 20

12 BODY 4

18 INT 8

11 EGO 2

18 PRE 8

14 COM 2

 

5/10 PD 2

5/10 ED 1

6 SPD 8

7 REC 0

40 END 0

30 STUN 0

 

25" RUN 0

2" SWIM 0

3" LEAP 0

Characteristics Cost: 66

 

Cost Power

12 Superspeed: Elemental Control, 30-point powers, (15 Active Points); all slots Restrainable (Only by means other than Grabs and Entangles; -1/4)

22 1) Hyper Agility: +20 DEX (60 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4)

10 3) Hyper Speed: +3 SPD (30 Active Points); Nonpersistent (-1/4)

26 5) Hyperr movement: Running +19" (25" total), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (47 Active Points)

11 6) Combat Luck: FF (5 PD/5 ED) (Protect Carried Items), Hardened (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (35 Active Points); Combat Luck Based (-1/2)

6 Team Communicator: HRRP (Radio Group) (12 Active Points); Sense Affected As Sight, Hearing, & Radio (-1/2), OIF (-1/2)

Powers Cost: 87

 

Cost Martial Arts Maneuver

5 Flying Dodge: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +4 DCV, Dodge All Attacks, Abort; FMove

5 Passing Throw: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 3d6 +v/5; Target Falls; FMove

5 Passing Disarm: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -1 DCV, Disarm, 25 STR to Disarm; FMove

Martial Arts Cost: 15

 

Cost Skill

1 Acting 8-

3 Breakfall 11- (15-)

3 Bribery 13-

3 Bureaucratics 13-

1 Combat Driving 8-

3 Concealment 13-

3 Conversation 13-

1 Criminology 8-

3 Deduction 13-

1 Forensic Medicine 8-

3 High Society 13-

3 Jack of All Trades

1 1) PS: Lawyer (2 Active Points) 11-

2 2) PS: Reporter (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13-

2 3) PS: Research (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13-

2 4) PS: Writer (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13-

4 Language: Native (idiomatic)

3 Lockpicking 11- (15-)

1 Paramedics 8-

3 Persuasion 13-

3 Power (DEX-based) 11- (15-)

3 Scholar

2 1) KS: Common Knowledge (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13-

2 2) KS: Criminal Law & Procedures (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13-

2 3) KS: Current events (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13-

2 4) KS: Super Villains (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13-

3 Seduction 13-

3 Shadowing 13-

3 Stealth 11- (15-)

3 Streetwise 13-

1 TF: Common Motorized Ground Vehicles

1 Teamwork 8-

3 Traveler

2 1) CK: Homeland (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13-

2 2) CuK: Criminal World (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13-

2 3) CuK: Journalistic World (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13-

2 4) CuK: Law Enforcment World (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13-

Skills Cost: 85

 

Cost Perk

7 Fringe Benefit: License to practice Law, Local Police Powers, Membership: Crusaders, Press Pass

3 Well-Connected

1 1) Contact (2 Active Points) 11-

1 2) Contact (2 Active Points) 11-

1 3) Contact (2 Active Points) 11-

5 4) Contact (6 Active Points) 15-

4 5) Contact: Detective Simon Queen. Police Liason (Contact has access to major institutions, Contact has significant Contacts of his own, Contact has useful Skills or resources) (5 Active Points) 11-

Perks Cost: 22

 

 

Total Character Cost: 275

 

Pts. Disadvantage

25 Hunted: VIPER 11- (Mo Pow, NCI, Harshly Punish)

15 Psych. Lim.: Curiosity (Very Common, Moderate)

15 Psych. Lim.: Tenatious, never gives up (Very Common, Moderate)

15 Psych. Lim.: Journalistic Code (Common, Strong)

15 Hunted: Pulse 8- (Mo Pow, Harshly Punish)

15 Soc. Lim.: Secret ID (Frequently, Major)

Disadvantage Points: 100

Base Points: 175

Experience Required: 0

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

[Alibear]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

I would allow that EC as it stands.

[Vestnik]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

Can DEX and SPD be Nonpersistent?

[drunkonduty]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

Well I feel I should back down a bit from my previously stated: "don't allow it!" POV. The case I mentioned was an abuse but I must agree with those of you who've pointed out that it's actually quite reasonable to do at times. The point about the advantages coming with a set of appropriate disadvantages is a very good one.

 

The point about the stats being extra drainable is a good one, but I use drains so rarely. How about other folks: do you use drains much?

[Alibear]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

Well, I don't use 'em normally that much but I do make a point of ensuring that disads and lims come into play.

 

One character had only in Hero ID for his different armours which would teleport on or off him when he wanted.

 

VIPER waited until he teleported out of one set of armour, and then before the other could be telported on to him, the activated a teleport suppress field.

 

You shoulda saw his face when he realised what happened.