how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

A bloke like Sir Edmund Hillary, the first bloke (part of a team) who climbed Everest.

 

Id say Sir Edmund had

Climb 5 points

Weath 5 points

Contacts 1 (quite a bit more actually but one will do for purposes of this discussion)

Survival Arctic / Subarctic & Mountain 18 or less (14 points)

 

Thats 25 without even getting into the details of his character. Thats almost 1/3 of who he is as a Competent Normal according to HERO 5rh ed rules. Too few points according to his full profile on wiki. (not that wiki is always right just viewing a quick public profile.)

 

The Pastor of my Church however who free hand climbs sheer surfaces as a hobby has at least 9 points in Climb 4 more than Edmond. With no points in survival. We joking call him Spider man. Edmond was not famous for climbing sheer surfaces as much as surviving the trek up Mt. Everest.

 

Look at skills as more of a % of success and understanding on a bell curve rather than an arbitrary number. Competent Normal skill levels might then make more sense then.

[teh bunneh]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Guy 1: Helped build the Mars Rover. Reserve Major in the Air Force' date=' has been hunting since he was 4 and can actually track animals in the woods. Crack shot with just about any pistol or rifle. [/quote']

 

4 Rank: Major

3 Tracking

2 WF: Small Arms

6 +2 with Small Arms

 

"Helped build the Mars Rover" ... not sure. Depends on what he did. Project Management? Engineer? I "helped build" the SDI, but that doesn't make me an expert on missile defense. Let's assume he was an engineer...

2 PS: Engineer

17 points total

 

His wife is a bio chemist for a major pharmaceutical company and quite scary herself. As a class project she made a large chemical reaction using coffee grinds and blew up her families barn by mistake.

 

2 PS: Bio-chemist

2 points total

 

Guy 2: Masters degree in History, makes web pages for a living. Studies historical warfare and tactics used for fun. He can tell you the optimum defensive ground and firing point for any form of warfare.

 

2 KS: General History

2 KS: History of (area of speciality)

2 KS: Historical warfare

2 PS: Web designer

3 Tactics

11 points total

 

Guy 3: Masters in Engineering, Plays competition paint ball and collects swords. Was raised by his Okinawan mother and trained in his family Martial Arts since birth. Knows pressure points for acupuncture, and teaches people how to use data bases at his work.

 

2 KS: Engineering

1 WF: Handguns

10 Martial Arts: Karate

2 KS: Acupuncture

2 PS: Database Engineer

17 points total

 

Guy 4: Masters in Philosophy & Math, goes shooting every month to keep his skills up. Does competition skeet shooting. Certified Genius.

 

2 KS: Philosophy

2 KS: Mathmatics

2 WF: Small Arms

4 +2 with Rifles

10 points total

 

Guy 5: Former Meat cutter, can dissect a cow to steak edible meats in less than 1 hour. Has a knife collection and can accurately throw a knife or lawn dart 20 yards.

 

2 PS: Butcher

1 WF: Knife (thrown)

4 +4 RSL with Knife

7 points total

 

Guy 6: Former Oil field worker, has ties with the ... well lets just say he has contacts and leave it at that. Also goes shooting with guy number 4. Bigger and stronger than guy number 5.

 

2 PS: Roustabout

6 Contact: Militia (Organizational Contact)

2 WF: Small Arms

10 points total

 

Give everyone above-average stats (say, 12 across the board) for 25 points, and include standard Everyman Skills, and it looks like everyone could easily fit into the "Skilled Normal" category, with points to spare.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Those are very brief descriptions I used, and the skills you used to justify their who and what they are, are in fact way off. You have to be kidding me if you want to use a straw man argument to deflect my point. I stand by my stance that most competent normals are more than 75 points and a gun in the hands of a competent normal can can be a dangerous thing. The police are not the weaksauce that most GM's tend to think they are. Does this eliminate the need for Supers, no of course not. Extra ordinary crimes call for extra ordinary measures.

 

Weaksauce straw man at best.

[GoldenAge]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Well, I've been good friends with a Detective in a major metropolitan area for years. For a very long time this college graduate who was an amature historian and all around smart guy trained officers in some of the worst districts of his city. For years he was passed over for promotion FOR SCORING TOO HIGH on the Detectives exam (between 98% and 100% each time).

 

No disrespect intended, I believe that most police officers are truly heroic individuals and overly worthy of our respect and thanks but... My friend reluctantly admitted that the average cop he worked with was a moron, so you could probably drop INT to 8 and get back a few points.

 

Again, not my perspective, just my experience.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Golden I would say that would be true for most new recruits regardless of profession. (Normals just out of the academy). Most veterans who are considered competent would be worth more points IMO like your friend. Tell me even though thoes recruits were incompetent how was their marksmanship skills?

 

Could they stand and aim (set) aim at a vital spot (haymaker) then fire?

 

That action would only be a few seconds worth of time. Still dangerous if they hit.

[teh bunneh]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Those are very brief descriptions I used' date=' and the skills you used to justify their who and what they are, are in fact way off. You have to be kidding me if you want to use a straw man argument to deflect my point. I stand by my stance that most competent normals are more than 75 points and a gun in the hands of a competent normal can can be a dangerous thing. [/quote']

 

My point is that it's all a matter of interpretation. In some people's games, it takes 6 skills at 15- minimum to be a good carpenter. In others, PS: Carpenter at 11- is more than sufficient. In some games, a cop with a handgun is a credible threat; in others, he's not even a speedbump.

 

I tend to fall into the "PS at 11- is sufficient to make a good living" camp. I'm rather agnostic WRT the gun issue -- it varies too much from game to game to make a sweeping statement. But if you're having fun doing it another way, game on brother!

[nexus]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Might I suggest that this either move to a different thread that is actually about what makes a "competent normal" or we do as suggested earlier and agree to disagree since the topic is contentious and unrelated to the thread's purpose.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

I'll be the first to agree that the system is flexible enough to handle either approach, depending on how you massage the system, but as I've mentioned when the idea has come up before, I tend towards a broader interpretation and like to work from benchmarks. This is HERO, after all...there is no "right" way to do anything.

 

Back in my college Archery days, just before I stopped getting credits for it (You could only take the class 6 times for credit), I used to occasionally impress the natives by sending a full flight into the target in essentially one continuous ongoing action. Not much extra time taken to aim, because I would do it blindfolded. Still usually put all 6 in the center ring. Most went THROUGH the prick (Proper name for the straw bale backing), because I was overdrawing my wimpy little 40 pound bow by a couple of inches. Sheer muscle memory, for the most part.

 

 

It could be modeled with a bunch of 2 point levels, or a Power Skill :Archery Tricks, or PSL's, or....

 

My friend Jim (Used to shoot in archery competitions at Faire as James the Cabinetmaker) could out shoot me every day of his life

 

I'd be happy to consider myself a 25+25 character with a fair bit of XP, but to be perfectly honest I've got more Disads than that

[GamePhil]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

I use a system similar to CrosshairCollie's. I refer to it as "Superpower trumps Equipment": all of that stuff that the agents didn't pay points for has Limitations that make it less effective against the abilities superheroes did pay points for.

 

Killing Attacks apply the Stun Multiple after purchased defenses are applied to the Body, or use a flat multiple in some games.

 

Tanks and other Vehicles have a Vulnerability or a Susceptability to superpowered attacks.

 

hmm, I'm tired, there are more examples and I can't think of them at the moment. But you get the idea. I found this was easier to do than go through and re-write all of the equipment to fit into my superhero games.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

I use a system similar to CrosshairCollie's. I refer to it as "Superpower trumps Equipment": all of that stuff that the agents didn't pay points for has Limitations that make it less effective against the abilities superheroes did pay points for.

 

Killing Attacks apply the Stun Multiple after purchased defenses are applied to the Body, or use a flat multiple in some games.

 

Tanks and other Vehicles have a Vulnerability or a Susceptability to superpowered attacks.

 

hmm, I'm tired, there are more examples and I can't think of them at the moment. But you get the idea. I found this was easier to do than go through and re-write all of the equipment to fit into my superhero games.

 

Yeah, I've become fond of using the Real Weapon/Real Armor limitations to reflect some of the more Super genre tropes without, for my taste, unduly gimping the more competent normal members of our society.

 

And even I question the SpecForces Package Deals in Dark Champions. When you can't build a Green Beret on less than 250 odd points, JUST to get the packages, something seems a bit funny.

[Starlord]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

But I wouldn't categorize someone with those skills as a "normal guy with a gun." I think most of the arguing in this thread is between people saying "Normal guys with guns shouldn't be much challenge for supers," and people saying "But, you're wrong; guys with guns can be a challenge for supers," not seeing the "normal" in the first opinion, and changing "shouldn't" to "couldn't."

 

just my $0.02

 

Good observation. A consensus needs to be reached on exactly what 'normal guy' means first, I suppose. Hard to do when it depends on the point level and style of each individual world.

 

Then there's the debate about actual "Herosystem" mechanics vs. the aforementioned 'style' and feel of each campaign. For example, even in higher point games if you follow the rules exactly then, technically, 'certain' supers should still be worried 'certain' handguns. "If this bullet hits you, then you roll this, with that as a factor...its possible you might be killed." To use the original poster's reference to the Capgun debate: Cap exists in the Marvel Universe campaign. If you properly apply the Hero rules there, sure, there are tons of supers that should really fear handguns. The 'style' of the Marvel Universe campaign suggests otherwise. I mean, how often do guns affect the majority of supers? From a strict rules perspective, Hawkeye should cringe in fear whenever he runs into more than a couple gun-toting thugs. Yet, he's written like gun-toting thugs might as well be carrying water pistols. How has Daredevil possibly survived this long? When have bullets ever worried Cap whatsoever (yes, he was shot to death. I easily ignore that though. Its just one more reason why the circumstances of his death were beyond ridiculous, but I digress)?

 

A happy medium has to be found in certain cases. My world is similar to Marvel's (except mine has a better editor-in-chief, but I'm digressing again). Normal weaponry is ignored for the most part. It would only be effective on helpless supers mostly and it would have to used by a character who is clearly superior for it to get any respect at all.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Originally Posted by GamePhil

I use a system similar to CrosshairCollie's. I refer to it as "Superpower trumps Equipment": all of that stuff that the agents didn't pay points for has Limitations that make it less effective against the abilities superheroes did pay points for.for.

 

I like that idea as a house rule, and it would solve some issues many seem to have. For example you could always "not allow" for maneuvers for equipment not purchased with character points.

 

 

posted by Nexus

Might I suggest that this either move to a different thread that is actually about what makes a "competent normal" or we do as suggested earlier and agree to disagree since the topic is contentious and unrelated to the thread's purpose.

 

Thats not a bad idea as we don't want to loose focus on the original post in question. As for a final stand about guns and supervillains. I think you should always have a good mix to provide an amount of realism (even where supers are concerned) where the bullet proof villain is the exception not the general rule. Especially since there are so many ways of a villain to deal with a bullet wound to begin with.

 

Remember what makes a HERO truly super is not always who he is or what powers he has as much as the choices he makes. This can include normals with guns, meat cutter knives, or fists of fury, be it villain or honest cop. Same with supervillains, its not the super powers he has, it's the options and choices, the villain makes, during the crime that he commits too.

 

Furthermore there are plenty of dangerous non-bulletproof villains in comic book Literature that have posed a threat in one way or another to bullet proof supers and vice versa.

[Alibear]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Survival Arctic / Subarctic & Mountain 18 or less (14 points)

 

 

You have an explanation for that?

[nexus]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Thats not a bad idea as we don't want to loose focus on the original post in question.

 

I have started such a thread

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63046

[Alibear]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Could they stand and aim (set) aim at a vital spot (haymaker) then fire?

 

That action would only be a few seconds worth of time. Still dangerous if they hit.

 

No-one is debating whether a normal bloke shooting a gun is a threat. We all know that anyone with a gun is dangerous to us.

 

The question is, "Is a normal bloke with a gun a threat to Angry GodMan who can toss tanks around with ease?"

 

Not in the world I play and GM in. A world where one character runs round the entire planet as a surprise maneuver. A world where Martial Artists dodging generate dcv's in the low 20's. A world where tough guys shrug off strikes from LAW rockets and strong guys lift aircraft carriers. In that world any super could kill a normal person with one strike before the normal person could react. That is not the kind of places where normal people combat supers.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

No-one is debating whether a normal bloke shooting a gun is a threat. We all know that anyone with a gun is dangerous to us.

 

The question is, "Is a normal bloke with a gun a threat to Angry GodMan who can toss tanks around with ease.

 

Not in the world I play and GM in. A world where one character runs round the entire planet as a surprise maneuver. A world where Martial Artists dodging generate dcv's in the low 20's. A world where tough guys shrug off strikes from LAW rockets and strong guys lift aircraft carriers. In that world any super could kill a normal person with one strike before the normal person could react. That is not the kind of places where normal people combat supers.

 

 

That's really what I'm asking. In your world how do you have it set up? I always felt for the genre supers should be needed to deal with supers but they're plenty of ways to make that happen that don't completely discount the little man. Power level obviously has lots to do with it but as also mentioned tone matters alot also.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Originally Posted by Alibear

The question is, "Is a normal bloke with a gun a threat to Angry GodMan who can toss tanks around with ease?"

 

Ask Lex Luthor

[Opal]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

As I said wake up and smell the competent normals. If you still think competent are 75 points you need to get out and meet more people in your neighborhood.

I don't hear anything unbuildable for 75 points (with a few disads) in that list. I know the trend for a long time now has been to build professional packages in agonizing detail. Gone are the good old days when PS: Lawyer 11- made you a lawyer, and 14- made you a good one. But, I don't like it, and I don't see the need for it. If you're not playing Paper Chase Hero, there's no need to have 90 points of lawyer skills, because they just won't be worth that much in play. Once in a blue moon, you'll make your Lawyer skill roll to tell the party whether a search is legal, and maybe someday make a contested roll for a jury trial or something.

 

The same goes for any other profession or interesting life experiences and skills that aren't really of any interest or importance in the campaign in question.

 

In a supers game, a competent normal is someone who might make a difference in the action. 150 points of stats and combat skills can certainly do that - make a difference, not be competative. If the plot swings around to defusing a bomb or translating an ancient scroll or making with some scientific gobbledygook to advance the plot, not a whole lot more than the single skill involved is really /needed/. You don't need to trick the 'compentent' scientist out with a KS on everything covered in every book he ever cracked in college, as long as he has the skills needed to play his part, and you have him statted out should he become a hostage or something.

[Alibear]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

That's really what I'm asking. In your world how do you have it set up? I always felt for the genre supers should be needed to deal with supers but they're plenty of ways to make that happen that don't completely discount the little man. Power level obviously has lots to do with it but as also mentioned tone matters alot also.

 

 

Well, when that campaign first ported over to Champions II, that'll give you an idea how long ago that was, my character had 225 points and was worried by normals with guns. Now that he has had 400 xps not so much. I wish I played him more than once every few years.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Ask Lex Luthor

 

 

True but its not because he threatens Superman with a gun. That's a whole different ball of wax. If it came down to that just a normal gun no kyptonite, hostage etc. He's already lost. His threat is far more insidious than that ( Yeah I like Luthor) The question is more narrow than you're interpreting I guess. I was really just interested in the pure physical threat. I know Fu Manchu ( sort of a normal)for example could be a problem for anyone but not because he'd just shoot them.

[Alibear]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Ask Lex Luthor

 

You think Lex Luthor is a normal person? Is Bill Gates our world version? I doubt if he'd be anymore deadly with a gun than my wife.

[Zed-F]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

That's really what I'm asking. In your world how do you have it set up? I always felt for the genre supers should be needed to deal with supers but they're plenty of ways to make that happen that don't completely discount the little man. Power level obviously has lots to do with it but as also mentioned tone matters alot also.

I am not a fan of the 'supers are absolutely required to deal with supers' trope. If you have that trope in force, then the entire basis on which global socio-political power is generated and wielded shifts. In my game worlds, you will likely never see a situation in which the military is rendered obsolete by superheroes, because I'm just not interested in exploring the ramifications of concentrating all the world's 'might makes right' into the hands of a few hundreds or thousands of individuals.

 

Superheroes have to be accountable, and that accountability has to be enforceable, without necessarily relying on other supers to do it, in my view. Otherwise... power corrupts, and normals eventually become thralls in the supernormal oligarchy. One could make an interesting game out of that, I suppose, but I'm not the guy to do it.

 

So... in most of my games, yes, the military does have ways of at least in theory dealing with supers. They aren't perfect. They hope they never have to be put to the test. And they certainly aren't undertaken easily or lightly. The military cannot and will not replace superheroes as the first line of defense against supervillains. They can't do the job as neatly or efficiently, and they don't have nearly the reaction time. If the military does get involved, things are going to be bloody and messy and very possibly draconian.

 

But if push came to shove, and the military were called in fight a super or supers endangering the security of their country, they would have available the tools and the training needed to do the job.

 

That said, different games run with different tones. And that's fine.

 

In my Childhood's End game, all supers have a common origin and almost all of them are low-enough powered that the military can deal with supers on an individual basis. But roughly one person in 1000 is empowered now -- over 6 million worldwide -- spread completely at random across the face of a world that has no experience at all with supers. Moreover, an extradimensional invasion is in its initial stages, and these guys use tactics and powers the military has never seen before. Conventional military will not be able to stop them, not by themselves. If the world's supers can discover themselves, find or make their place in society, and rally to fight a common foe in time, though, they might have the strength to beat back the invaders. Even so, it would be a mistake to assume that the established military won't have their own role to play in the coming conflict.

[Opal]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

I am not a fan of the 'supers are absolutely required to deal with supers' trope. If you have that trope in force' date=' then the entire basis on which global socio-political power is generated and wielded shifts.[/quote']Yes, it does, which can be pretty interesting in itself. In my campaign world, there was a period in which supers suplanted MAD as the balance of power (because one exceptionally powerful super destroyed all the world's nuclear weapons). Supers became very important to nations, who tried very hard to keep them loyal.

 

Superheroes have to be accountable, and that accountability has to be enforceable, without necessarily relying on other supers to do it, in my view. Otherwise... power corrupts, and normals eventually become thralls in the supernormal oligarchy.

I think part of the superhero genre is the flip side of that. Not 'power corrupts,' but 'great power brings great responsibility.' There are superheros and supervillains because both are true. The villains and heros might have the same powers, but the villains were corrupted by them, while the heros accepted the responsibilty of wielding them for good.

 

When the responsibility that comes with power is enforced by political structures, it's conformity vs definance, instead.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

...Gone are the good old days when PS: Lawyer 11- made you a lawyer, and 14- made you a good one. But, I don't like it, and I don't see the need for it. If you're not playing Paper Chase Hero, there's no need to have 90 points of lawyer skills, because they just won't be worth that much in play. Once in a blue moon, you'll make your Lawyer skill roll to tell the party whether a search is legal, and maybe someday make a contested roll for a jury trial or something.

 

The same goes for any other profession or interesting life experiences and skills that aren't really of any interest or importance in the campaign in question.

 

Hear, hear! I concur! PS: Soldier on 11- should cover anything a soldier is expected to do as part of his basic training (and possibly some of his advanced training.) His MOS could be as simple as a skill level with his primary weapon, some first-aid training, or some other simple representation of his specialty. Me, I'd'a had PS: Electronic Warfare Technician.

 

I sincerely believe it should take a high-powered rifle (or, at the very least, a low-powered cannon) and an attack from concealment to seriously threaten most supers. If the heroes in my campaigns habitually flee in terror from handgun-toting thugs, something is dreadfully wrong.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

I know the trend for a long time now has been to build professional packages in agonizing detail. Gone are the good old days when PS: Lawyer 11- made you a lawyer, and 14- made you a good one. But, I don't like it, and I don't see the need for it. If you're not playing Paper Chase Hero, there's no need to have 90 points of lawyer skills, because they just won't be worth that much in play. Once in a blue moon, you'll make your Lawyer skill roll to tell the party whether a search is legal, and maybe someday make a contested roll for a jury trial or something.

 

The same goes for any other profession or interesting life experiences and skills that aren't really of any interest or importance in the campaign in question.

 

 

 

Gotta agree with you 100% there. That should be what PS is for.