how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

[Alibear]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

What really sets normals apart is they're inherent squishiness. 8-10 body and 2 or 3 p/ed makes people dead real quick if they get the wrong side of a Super.

 

Get a baseball bat and apply it to a real persons head, any real persons head, and you'll soon see how much pd we have. How much damage do you think you would do with a solid strike with that club? 3d6? 4d6?

 

Now imagine Angry GodMan is using 100 times as much force as you...

 

I think Authority has it right, when Supers collide normals die, even SWAT. Dead.

 

Or toss a SWAT guy off an 8 story building, he'll be just as dead as you or me, no matter how 'tough' he is. You can write them up with 8 pd and he'll survive that fall but he isn't normal or real anymore.

 

Competant normals are still normal people if I GM.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

It's a good question?

 

Incompetent Normals - 15pts. Base + 10pts. Disadvantages (SPD 2, Defenses 3, Combat Values 3, No Skill Levels)

 

Normals - 25pts. Base + 25pts. Disadvantages (SPD 2, Defenses 4,Combat Values 4, 1 to 2 Skill Levels)

 

Competent Normals - 50pts. Base + 50pts. Disadvantages (SPD 3, Defenses 6, Combat Values 4 to 5, 2 to 4 Skill Levels)

 

Agents, Specialists, etc... 75pts. Base + 75pts. Disadvantages (SPD 3 to 4, Defenses 8, Combat Values 5 to 6, 3 to 6 Skill Levels)

 

Super-Agents 100pts. Base + 100pts. Disadvantages (SPD 4, Defenses 10, Combat Values 6 to 8, 4 to 8 Skill Levels)

 

 

Combat Skill Levels and Super-Ammo are rare and expensive.

 

Super-Gunslingers are the exception to the rule.

 

Penalty Skill Levels vs Range, Hit Locations, Autofire, etc... The best have it all.

 

Find Weakness with Small Arms.

 

Gun Fu, Gun Kata, or Gunslinger.

 

 

Hope that helps

 

 

QM

[Tech]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Regarding the police in our campaign, when a (super)hero arrives to fight the (super)villains, if any of the baddies have resistant PD, I assume they bounce all attacks with no damage done. If the baddies don't have resistant PD, I assume they've dodged/avoided all the attacks. Only if the plot requires a badguy to be hurt does it occur. The police generally sit back and wait for the heroes to deal with the supervillains. One of our hero groups have federal powers, another one has police powers, another doesn't but is well loved by the entire city and the last group is generally unknown and the new improved special police forces for supervillains speaks out against that group (fun for players and GM alike).

 

Don't know if I answered the question or not but there ya go.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

You know, that really is a valid option: rather than sweat over measuring how the character and weapon stats balance against each other, just declare that normal people and real-world weapons are ineffective against supers, and everyone knows that. If your game group is comfortable with that approach it would save a lot of work and grief.

[nexus]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

You know' date=' that really is a valid option: rather than sweat over measuring how the character and weapon stats balance against each other, just declare that normal people and real-world weapons are ineffective against supers, and everyone knows that. If your game group is comfortable with that approach it would save a lot of work and grief. [/quote']

 

IMO, this is really the best way to run a campaign like DBZ for example, where the villains (and heroes) routinely shrug off full scale military attacks without the slightest hint of worry but can still hurt each other.

[Zed-F]

The sniper aiming for the head thing depends on if you are using Hit Location. IME, most people don't in Superheroic games because the Players should fairly, be able to get them too which could lead to issues.

 

A deliberate headshot with a gun, in a 4-colour game with no hit locations, *is* a Haymaker. (Or a ranged martial art maneuver, or a superskill, or something of the sort.)

 

I'd also add for a "Normals are dangerous too." style campaign powers still have edges. They are usually innate and not obvious and higher end firepower takes some time and resources to get and deploy particularly on the side of Law and Order. Every bank robbery isn't going to be met with heavily body armored snipers with anti tank weapons (and civil forces have to consider collateral damage). Criminals have more leeway but they also have to deal with the law which tends watch military grade armament transactions very closely... So superheroes (and villains) still have a place, it's just different.

 

Conventional military forces should be a potentially serious threat to heroes/villains in any game below JLA power levels, IMHO... at least unless you want to explore the ramifications of changing the entire basis on which global military and political power is projected and employed. The main advantage superheroes have is simply their ability to be in the right place at the right time in a way no military organization could hope to match. Partly this is due to the fact that they are the stars of the show, of course, but it's also partly because the average hero has unparalleled personal mobility options compared with the average platoon of soldiers.

 

You know, that really is a valid option: rather than sweat over measuring how the character and weapon stats balance against each other, just declare that normal people and real-world weapons are ineffective against supers, and everyone knows that. If your game group is comfortable with that approach it would save a lot of work and grief.

If, on the other hand, you *are* running a game at a JLA power level...

[nexus]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

There's also things a superhuman can do that a platoon of conventional troops just can't do unless the game assumes some very advanced technology.

 

I do believe super humans should, in general, be "special" in some fashion and not just because they're PCs or happen to be in the right place at the right time.

 

That specialness can be the result of their abilities, their trainings, their powers or their enemies but I feel it should be there at least to some extent even though I've been thought of it "disempowering" players because I prefer lower point totals.

 

It's a delicate balance, particularly at the low end but it can lose something if supers are just like anyone else just they get their first (not saying that what's your advocating).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

if my players need to have their characters threatened with retribution if they fail to act as I would prefer' date=' their's a communications issue going on between me and the Players over just what the flavor of the campaign should be.[/quote']

 

Exactly. EX-FREAKIN'-ACTLY.

[Gideon]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

One of the issues I have, and part of the reason I made my character Gideon the way I did, is because in the comics "superhero" gunslingers with normal weapons work.

 

Look at Vigilante I (Greg Saunders) as an example. He's been a member of the Seven Soldiers since 1941 (Leading Comics #1). He's fought many villains, and been effective against all but the toughest.

 

Even in JLU Vigilante was shown using apparently normal bullets (they never made reference to them being anything else), and the only person he was truly ineffectual against was the General (at least until he blew up his motorcycle in the guys face).

 

So, my take is that things are a bit overboard if every super (PC or NPC, hero or villain) is bullet proof. It takes an entire character concept (one that really is golden age in origin) and throws it out the window.

[assault]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

If' date=' on the other hand, you *are* running a game at a JLA power level... [/quote']

 

I would imagine they would still be a threat. After all, most JLA members aren't Superman, nor are most of their opponents Darkseid.

 

Landing a bullet on the Flash wouldn't be easy, but it would hurt if you could do it. Ditto for the Atom, Hawkman, Green Arrow, Black Canary, Batman, Elongated Man, Aquaman and Wonder Woman. Green Lantern and the Martian Manhunter would take a little more work, but would be doable.

 

Of course, by convention, mooks aren't able to land hits on such characters. That doesn't prevent "important" characters from being able to achieve such hits.

 

Once again, my standard/default super these days has ~7-11 PD/ED, with about 3 of that from Combat Luck, plus 50% Physical Damage Reduction. With a CON around 18 or 20, they can handle most bullets, without being "bulletproof". They may have additional defences as well.

[nexus]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

One of the issues I have, and part of the reason I made my character Gideon the way I did, is because in the comics "superhero" gunslingers with normal weapons work.

 

Look at Vigilante I (Greg Saunders) as an example. He's been a member of the Seven Soldiers since 1941 (Leading Comics #1). He's fought many villains, and been effective against all but the toughest.

 

Even in JLU Vigilante was shown using apparently normal bullets (they never made reference to them being anything else), and the only person he was truly ineffectual against was the General (at least until he blew up his motorcycle in the guys face).

 

So, my take is that things are a bit overboard if every super (PC or NPC, hero or villain) is bullet proof. It takes an entire character concept (one that really is golden age in origin) and throws it out the window.

 

Oh, I agree but you can (and should, IMO) give a Super Gunslinger Find Weakness, enhanced damage (Deadly Accuracy or even Lucky Shots) Trick Shot powers, PSLs and other stunts to keep them in the running. They shouldn't be any more restricted to what's "realistic" for their sfx than bricks are bound by realistic physics unless it's a facet of the game.

[GoldenAge]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

In my 4-color superhero games guns rarely endanger heroes. There are, however, three very important exceptions:

 

1. Myriad Man - A villain with duplication and mind link between the duplicates. His ability to mentally coordinate his martial arts and/or multiple (2 1/2 d6) ranged attacks result in awesome multiple attacker bonuses and allow for united head-shots (or disabling limb attacks) that can endanger even the most secure heroes in my game.

 

2. The "Out of Combat" assassin attack has (in the past) been successful against a hero. Caught out of hero ID and without defenses any hero is vulnerable. Heroes tend to become public figures despite their own wishes and behavior patterns tend to show eventually... A relatively intelligent adversary could eventually catch our hero with his "pants down".

 

3. Innocent bystanders endangered by a simple pistol are as much a problem for heroes as an onrushing meteor. A clever villain with a pistol and a little planning can always use the threat of bodily harm to the public to avoid apprehension or (emotionally) damage our hero.

 

The gun, despite its lack of potency against full blown heroes, is and always will be a very important component of all of my games.

[Opal]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

So' date=' my take is that things are a bit overboard if every super (PC or NPC, hero or villain) is bullet proof. It takes an entire character concept (one that really is golden age in origin) and throws it out the window.[/quote']Concepts like that work fine if the gunman also has plenty of Find Weakness and levels with his gun.

 

Like I mentioned, I run a campaign where guns can be laughed off by supers pretty easily. I don't stat normal guns with very high damage, and I weaken KAs in general by aplying STNx only to the BOD that gets through.

 

But, not long ago, the main villain was a gunman, with a pistol. A small caliber pistol. It wasn't /perfectly/ normal, it was AP, but it didn't do any more damage than other handguns in the campaign. But, the villain had enough find weakness that he was able to do BOD to even the tougher more 'bullet proof' PCs.

 

The achetype can be made to work, even in a campaign that disfavors guns, it just needs sufficient skill on the part of the gunman.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

So' date=' my take is that things are a bit overboard if every super (PC or NPC, hero or villain) is bullet proof. It takes an entire character concept (one that really is golden age in origin) and throws it out the window.[/quote']

 

Not every character concept works, or fits, in every game.

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

 

The achetype can be made to work, even in a campaign that disfavors guns, it just needs sufficient skill on the part of the gunman.

 

But I wouldn't categorize someone with those skills as a "normal guy with a gun." I think most of the arguing in this thread is between people saying "Normal guys with guns shouldn't be much challenge for supers," and people saying "But, you're wrong; guys with guns can be a challenge for supers," not seeing the "normal" in the first opinion, and changing "shouldn't" to "couldn't."

 

just my $0.02

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Really? How would you describe a competent normal? SWAT? Beat cop? SAS? Olympic Gymnast? Infantryman?

 

Hmmm well that is a good question. So I'll describe my game group. Please understand that we have been gaming for about 20 years. These are competent normals and real people.

 

Guy 1: Helped build the Mars Rover. Reserve Major in the Air Force, has been hunting since he was 4 and can actually track animals in the woods. Crack shot with just about any pistol or rifle. His wife is a bio chemist for a major pharmaceutical company and quite scary herself. As a class project she made a large chemical reaction using coffee grinds and blew up her families barn by mistake.

 

Guy 2: Masters degree in History, makes web pages for a living. Studies historical warfare and tactics used for fun. He can tell you the optimum defensive ground and firing point for any form of warfare.

 

Guy 3: Masters in Engineering, Plays competition paint ball and collects swords. Was raised by his Okinawan mother and trained in his family Martial Arts since birth. Knows pressure points for acupuncture, and teaches people how to use data bases at his work.

 

Guy 4: Masters in Philosophy & Math, goes shooting every month to keep his skills up. Does competition skeet shooting. Certified Genius.

 

Guy 5: Former Meat cutter, can dissect a cow to steak edible meats in less than 1 hour. Has a knife collection and can accurately throw a knife or lawn dart 20 yards.

 

Guy 6: Former Oil field worker, has ties with the ... well lets just say he has contacts and leave it at that. Also goes shooting with guy number 4. Bigger and stronger than guy number 5.

 

These are competent normals. You should meet my neighbors they are truly scary. Most are vets from Vietnam, one is a fireman, and two are cops on my street. I'd say they are competent normals as well.

 

As I said wake up and smell the competent normals. If you still think competent are 75 points you need to get out and meet more people in your neighborhood.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Hmmm well that is a good question. So I'll describe my game group. Please understand that we have been gaming for about 20 years. These are competent normals and real people.

 

Guy 1: Helped build the Mars Rover. Reserve Major in the Air Force, has been hunting since he was 4 and can actually track animals in the woods. Crack shot with just about any pistol or rifle. His wife is a bio chemist for a major pharmaceutical company and quite scary herself. As a class project she made a large chemical reaction using coffee grinds and blew up her families barn by mistake.

 

Guy 2: Masters degree in History, makes web pages for a living. Studies historical warfare and tactics used for fun. He can tell you the optimum defensive ground and firing point for any form of warfare.

 

Guy 3: Masters in Engineering, Plays competition paint ball and collects swords. Was raised by his Okinawan mother and trained in his family Martial Arts since birth. Knows pressure points for acupuncture, and teaches people how to use data bases at his work.

 

Guy 4: Masters in Philosophy & Math, goes shooting every month to keep his skills up. Does competition skeet shooting. Certified Genius.

 

Guy 5: Former Meat cutter, can dissect a cow to steak edible meats in less than 1 hour. Has a knife collection and can accurately throw a knife or lawn dart 20 yards.

 

Guy 6: Former Oil field worker, has ties with the ... well lets just say he has contacts and leave it at that. Also goes shooting with guy number 4. Bigger and stronger than guy number 5.

 

These are competent normals. You should meet my neighbors they are truly scary. Most are vets from Vietnam, one is a fireman, and two are cops on my street. I'd say they are competent normals as well.

 

As I said wake up and smell the competent normals. If you still think competent are 75 points you need to get out and meet more people in your neighborhood.

 

Well said.

To be fair, I might go so far as to say that we Competent Normal types tend to gravitate together, because the "I barely made it out of high school, work at McDonalds, and spend all my spare time gaming, smoking weed and playing X-Box" types are profoundly boring to be around if you're Competent in the ways our groups of friends both seem to be.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Oh I forgot to add to guy number 5

Knows ancient languages, studies conspiracy theory, world religions, and theology. (theology as a second hobby, and the others mostly get idea's for Friday game night backdrop campaign idea's.)

 

Guy 5 would be me of course.

 

COMPETENT NORMALS FTW!

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Oh I forgot to add to guy number 5

Knows ancient languages, studies conspiracy theory, world religions, and theology. (theology as a second hobby, and the others mostly get idea's for Friday game night backdrop campaign idea's.)

 

Guy 5 would be me of course.

 

COMPETENT NORMALS FTW!

 

Damn Skippy!

 

I'm gonna resist the urge to REALLY list my skill sets, because it'd track like bragging... but suffice to say I seem to have a natural talent for anything relating to violence, and I'm a total knowledge sponge. Somewhere way back in childhood I heard the term Jack of All Trades and decided that was what I wanted to be when I grew up.

Added to that...I started gaming and decided that I wanted to learn how to do the cool stuff my characters could do. Many years of martial arts, archery, sword fighting, shooting, contact sports and the occasional foray into pyrotechnics followed. I also absorbed my Dad's survivalist tendencies.

 

To top it off, I'm obsessed with history, psychology, and metaphysics

 

I'd be a great Post Apocalyptic Warlord or Time Traveler. Neither of which is a very bankable skill set these days.

 

 

All the fuss about Scientology lately has reminded me that maybe I should reconsider starting my own religion.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

All the fuss about Scientology lately has reminded me that maybe I should reconsider starting my own religion.

 

No its better to remain Anonymous. Cults are more trouble then they are worth, history has shown that to be true over and over again. Once a cult gets bloated like Scientology did, secret stuff begins to leak out of it. Then you begin to loose control over your project child. This is always bad for cult leaders and Evil Master villains alike even the vile competent normal ones.

 

Besides its more fun and laughs to be a well rounded competent normal.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

No its better to remain Anonymous. Cults are more trouble then they are worth, history has shown that to be true over and over again. Once a cult gets bloated like Scientology did, secret stuff begins to leak out of it. Then you begin to loose control over your project child. This is always bad for cult leaders and Evil Master villains alike even the vile competent normal ones.

 

Besides its more fun and laughs to be a well rounded competent normal.

 

I kinda miss having my own Henchmen tho, and I think I could make a religion more fun than most out there.

 

Vaguely funny true story... I was once investigated because someone in authority was suspicious that the Renfaire guild I used to run might have been a Militia. Too many competent recruits with a few too many skeletons in their respective closets.

[Alibear]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Of all these people with skills out of the wazoo do any of them have more than 11 or 12 or less in more than one of them?

 

The 11 or less is enough to be a professional in your field. KS: Law 11 or less is enough to pass the bar exam and be a lawyer. People with multiple MAs will have 12 or less in several subjects not more.

 

I'd be really surprised if your mates have more than 1 or 2 skills above 12 and be staggered if the marksman had more than 6 ocv.

 

Do you really think that you know a group of 100 point characters?

 

 

I'd bet most people really are 0 point characters and the rest, barring truly exceptional people, can be built on 25 + 25 points.

[input.jack]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Of all these people with skills out of the wazoo do any of them have more than 11 or 12 or less in more than one of them?

 

The 11 or less is enough to be a professional in your field. KS: Law 11 or less is enough to pass the bar exam and be a lawyer. People with multiple MAs will have 12 or less in several subjects not more.

 

I'd be really surprised if your mates have more than 1 or 2 skills above 12 and be staggered if the marksman had more than 6 ocv.

 

Do you really think that you know a group of 100 point characters?

 

 

I'd bet most people really are 0 point characters and the rest, barring truly exceptional people, can be built on 25 + 25 points.

 

I used to think so, too. Then I applied to be a police officer in the LAPD, back in the late 80s. I learned all the things that a police officer is required to know. Ive also gotten to know several people in the military, and in law enforcement.

 

Now my "typical LAPD Patrol Officer" is statted out at about 150 points. Plus car and gear.

 

I have no trouble at all with the idea that Amadan and his friends have multiple skills over 12-, or CVs over 6.

[JmOz]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

I used to think so, too. Then I applied to be a police officer in the LAPD, back in the late 80s. I learned all the things that a police officer is required to know. Ive also gotten to know several people in the military, and in law enforcement.

 

Now my "typical LAPD Patrol Officer" is statted out at about 150 points. Plus car and gear.

 

I have no trouble at all with the idea that Amadan and his friends have multiple skills over 12-, or CVs over 6.

 

Funny, based on my military experience I would say the averege guy in the service is maybe a 25-50 points, this is not spec forces, just the average guy

[Alibear]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

I doubt if we'll ever agree on this. Some people see a skill being performed and think 14- I often think 11- or even 8- is enough.

 

A bloke like Sir Edmund Hillary, the first bloke (part of a team) who climbed Everest. What would you think he had for climbing? 14 or 15 maybe? I can't see him having to have higher than that. Did he climb while being shot at or with little or no equipment? Did he scale sheer cliffs in a blizzard? Did he race up mountains wounded? These are things that PC's regularly do but real people would never dream of.

 

Did he need higher than that? I normally only ask for a skill roll in circumstances where the PC can't simply take his time and work through the problem.

 

I think if you have the tracking skill at 11- you can track an animal through the woods. I would only ask for a skill check when someone is trying to evade capture or if the terrain was particularly bad.

 

One of my friends taught himself to picklocks and can normally pick an easy lock after a minute or two, he'll eventually get any standard lock if he has enough time. Does he have higher than 8-? I doubt it.

 

As I said, I doubt if we'll ever agree on this.