Desolid, Str affects real world and martial arts interactions ?

[rabid_schnauzer]

Suppose there is a character who has Desolidification. Let's suppose that character has bought "Affects Physical World" on their base strength of 10.

 

Let's suppose that they also want to buy martial arts, including the following maneuvers:

• Offensive Strike
  
• Martial Throw
  
• Martial Disarm
  
• Nerve Strike
  

 

Now let's further suppose that they want to buy extra DC with their martial maneuvers.

 

What is the best way to handle damage and effect calculations when the character is desolid and using martial maneuvers?

 

A. Should the character have to buy each and every maneuver as "affects physical world" for it to work at all?

 

B. Should the character buy "affects physical world" as a naked advantage on "attacks up to Xd6"?

 

C.Should the damage and effects above the base Strength be pro-rated by the cost of the advantage?

 

D. Should the number of dice rolled be solely based on the part of the attack which affects physical world, with the non-damage, non-str effects of martial maneuvers (such as the better CV modifiers for martial disarm and the "target falls" effect of martial throw) applying even if not bought with the advantage?

 

E. Something else? Please elaborate?

 

Here are my concerns about each of the listed maneuvers:

 

Offensive Strike - does the +4d6 for the maneuver apply in this case or not?

 

Martial Throw - Does the variable damage based on the target's velocity apply since the attacker's Str already affects the physical world or must the maneuver/extra damage be bought with its own advantage. Does the "target falls" effect apply even if the manuver itself isn't bought with the advantage?

 

Disarm/Grab/Escape - does the additional strength apply or not?

 

Nerve Strike - is the NND damage dealt by the Str which already affects real world, or is a separate advantage required?

 

Extra DC - does this apply or not? I'm inclined to think that it only applies if bought "affects real world", but are there any cases where it should apply? (increased maneuver Str, added NND damage?, etc)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Desolid, Str affects real world and martial arts interactions ?

 

If you buy Affects Real World for your STR, it carries over to Martial Maneuvers. and Skills that require contact with the Physical World.

 

No proration. No added math. No nothing. If your STR affects the Physical World all your STR Based Attacks do as well.

 

There's a reason it's a +2 Advantage.

[OddHat]

Re: Desolid, Str affects real world and martial arts interactions ?

 

If you buy Affects Real World for your STR, it carries over to Martial Maneuvers. and Skills that require contact with the Physical World.

 

No proration. No added math. No nothing. If your STR affects the Physical World all your STR Based Attacks do as well.

 

There's a reason it's a +2 Advantage.

 

Yup.

 

If it's not balanced in a given campaign, don't allow it.

[Outsider]

Re: Desolid, Str affects real world and martial arts interactions ?

 

The official rule is that you only need to buy APW on the STR you are going to use. The added damage from maneuvers and martial DCs adds on without having to pay the +2.

 

So a desolid STR 1 martial Artist with 8 martial arts DCs pays all of 2 points (+2 APW on 1 STR) to make 12D6 offensive strikes on the solid world. He won't be able to throw, though, as his APW STR isnt high enough to lift any but the lightest of opponents.

 

Finding a GM that will allow this is the hard part.

[rabid_schnauzer]

Re: Desolid, Str affects real world and martial arts interactions ?

 

If that's an "official" rule, could you please point me towards a page number, FAQ or Errata ? I was unable to find one myself.

 

Now, to restate my question: Since even if it is official, it's obviously a bit of a loophole, to allow characters to gain large APW attacks by buying a low APW Str and loads of extra DC, what do you think is the best way for reasonable people to handle it in a game?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Desolid, Str affects real world and martial arts interactions ?

 

5ER p148 under Affects Real World, 2nd Paragraph.

 

Ways to handle it:

1) Disallow it, Affects Physical World is an extremely potent Advantage no matter what it's applied to.

 

2) Require it to be buy for ALL the Characters STR, or not at all. This is the best option if you're going to allow it into your game.

 

3) House Rule: Create some form of mitigating House Rule you feel is appropriate. The easiest to deal with is nor allowing Martial Damage Classes to be used while Desolid.; So only the damage from STR+Maneuver is counted.

 

APW for even 15STR is a 30 Point Cost, while not a lot of points, it's not a small amount either. Coupled with Desolidification at 40 Points the Character has spent 70 Points to be nearly immune to retribution, keeping in mind that 70 Points in Defenses could very easily come close to doing the same thing.

 

While it is most certainly something to be wary of, and to watch closely. It is not an immediate game breaker.

[jtelson]

Re: Desolid, Str affects real world and martial arts interactions ?

 

My initial reaction to this is to say you need to apply the Affects Physical World advantage to your MA maneauvers + DC's but ghost-angel makes a good point with the actual costs for as little as a 15 STR.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Desolid, Str affects real world and martial arts interactions ?

 

Another option is not allow the advantage to apply to MA damage but require an equivalent DC of HA to be used instead. Then buy a multipower with the Naked Advantage for STR as one slot and and an Advantaged HA as another.

 

example:

 

60 Multipower, 60-point reserve

4u 1) Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6, Affects Physical World (+2) (60 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) 6

6u 2) Affects Physical World (+2) for up to 20 Active Points of STR, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (60 Active Points)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Desolid, Str affects real world and martial arts interactions ?

 

Another option is not allow the advantage to apply to MA damage but require an equivalent DC of HA to be used instead. Then buy a multipower with the Naked Advantage for STR as one slot and and an Advantaged HA as another.

 

example:

 

60 Multipower, 60-point reserve

4u 1) Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6, Affects Physical World (+2) (60 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) 6

6u 2) Affects Physical World (+2) for up to 20 Active Points of STR, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (60 Active Points)

 

Nice build; but doesn't allow for some of all the other cool stuff Martial Maneuvers can do: Take Downs, Blocks, etc. . .

[Sean Waters]

Re: Desolid, Str affects real world and martial arts interactions ?

 

Hyper-Man's suggestion leads to a somewhat fairer outcome in many situations, but the whole thing is a bit skewed if you ask me: even using HM's construct, and assuming you have 20 STR, you can do 8d6 (affects real world damage, and at the cost, that is ridiculously cheap.

 

MA and extra DCs are a complete gimme.

 

It is well and good disallowing it in a given campaign, but where is the break point? An attack that can affect the real world should be three times more expensive than one that can't.

 

Oddly enough I strongly suspect that the reason for this relates to the discussion taking place elsewhere on whether strength is properly costed in Hero.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Desolid, Str affects real world and martial arts interactions ?

 

I have always had problems with extra DCs and martial artists who are as effective as bricks in a straight up punch at a vault door.

 

What I have done is only allow extra DCs to count versus defences and only the STR and manouevre bonus can do damage...bit complicated but good use of coloured dice work well.

 

 

Doc

[OddHat]

Re: Desolid, Str affects real world and martial arts interactions ?

 

Since even if it is official' date=' it's obviously a bit of a loophole, to allow characters to gain large APW attacks by buying a low APW Str and loads of extra DC, [b']what do you think is the best way for reasonable people to handle it in a game? [/b]

 

Meh. You get your +4d6 from Haymaker when you pay for Affects Solid World on your STR You get your +v/5 for Move By. You get your +v/3 for Move Through. You get them because they're maneuvers, and ASW would be pretty meaningless if you couldn't perform the same maneuvers and use the same skills you could normally use with your STR. Martial Arts are, in theory, just maneuvers (albeit ones you have to pay for). So, you get your +Xd6 for them, just as you did for the rest.

 

If that's not balanced in your campaign, a reasonable person can refuse to allow it, or go with Hyperman's approach and require the purchase of HA with ASW instead of Martial Arts.

 

What's broken in one campaign might be fine in another, and that's a judgment the GM has to make for himself.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Desolid, Str affects real world and martial arts interactions ?

 

I think the best way to balance it is not to do it that way in the first place. I'd overhaul desolidification completely, and build the cost of being able to affect the solid world into the cost of the power. Anything much short of (DCx5x2) as an additional cost is not 'fair'.

[OddHat]

Re: Desolid, Str affects real world and martial arts interactions ?

 

I think the best way to balance it is not to do it that way in the first place. I'd overhaul desolidification completely' date=' and build the cost of being able to affect the solid world into the cost of the power. Anything much short of (DCx5x2) as an additional cost is not 'fair'.[/quote']

 

A custom adder to the cost of Desolid is one way to do it. Want to be able to put out 12d6 damage when Desolid? It's yours for +120 points.

 

Would that also include the ability to pick up and manipulate objects with (presumably) up to 60 STR? And to use Entangle, Change Environment, etc while desolid, again up to 60 active points? And standard maneuvers would be capped at the payed for number of DCs?

 

For characters who currently rely on a MP or VPP for their attacks when desolid, it seems like a much more expensive approach.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Desolid, Str affects real world and martial arts interactions ?

 

A custom adder to the cost of Desolid is one way to do it. Want to be able to put out 12d6 damage when Desolid? It's yours for +120 points.

 

Would that also include the ability to pick up and manipulate objects with (presumably) up to 60 STR? And to use Entangle, Change Environment, etc while desolid, again up to 60 active points? And standard maneuvers would be capped at the payed for number of DCs?

 

For characters who currently rely on a MP or VPP for their attacks when desolid, it seems like a much more expensive approach.

 

Desolid is one of those difficult powers in Hero because it has a fixed point cost and, given the prevalence of multipowers for blasters, soon becomes useless as any kind of defence.

 

It has been suggested before that the best way to do it might be as a purely 'can pass through objects' power, and model the 'invulnerability' as a linked form of defence. You may well have suggested that

 

That would be sweet as it would take away the scale problems: desolid could be bought like tunnelling (you may have suggested that as well; someone did). Actually I'd make it 5 points to pass through 1 BODY of a material, and use another mode of movement for the actual inches. So, 50 points in desolid would allow you to pass through 10 Body of material. If the DEF was over 10 you couldn't enter it at all. 10 Body of plastic is, for example, 25 cm deep.

 

You could take (say) 1/2 Ph and En Dam Red (res) on that, linked, for another 40 points.

 

Then you either do away with 'affects desolid' and 'affects real world' as advantages or, for th eformer, keep it and take a further limitation on your defences ('affects desolid attacks ignore defences') for maybe another -1/2, or -1/4 if only a limited number of attacks ignore the defences. For the latter (affects real world) you could take a limitation that the defences you have bought linked to desolid apply to OUTGOING attacks, or that outgoing attacks simply do not affect the real world (-1/4 to -1/2, probably).

 

That's a much more balanced approach, and you could basically ignore the problem of affects real world - your attacks always would UNLESS you bought them so they couldn't.

 

The problem with that approach is that, well, it does make it difficult to build Kitty Pryde, unless she had a lot more points in desolid than anyone knew - possible as it waas basically her only power for a long time AND, at some point it is probably worth taking some desolid just for the saving on the cost of your attacks.

 

[OddHat]

Re: Desolid, Str affects real world and martial arts interactions ?

 

Desolid is one of those difficult powers in Hero because it has a fixed point cost and, given the prevalence of multipowers for blasters, soon becomes useless as any kind of defence.

 

It has been suggested before that the best way to do it might be as a purely 'can pass through objects' power, and model the 'invulnerability' as a linked form of defence. You may well have suggested that

 

That would be sweet as it would take away the scale problems: desolid could be bought like tunnelling (you may have suggested that as well; someone did). Actually I'd make it 5 points to pass through 1 BODY of a material, and use another mode of movement for the actual inches. So, 50 points in desolid would allow you to pass through 10 Body of material. If the DEF was over 10 you couldn't enter it at all. 10 Body of plastic is, for example, 25 cm deep.

 

You could take (say) 1/2 Ph and En Dam Red (res) on that, linked, for another 40 points.

 

Then you either do away with 'affects desolid' and 'affects real world' as advantages or, for th eformer, keep it and take a further limitation on your defences ('affects desolid attacks ignore defences') for maybe another -1/2, or -1/4 if only a limited number of attacks ignore the defences. For the latter (affects real world) you could take a limitation that the defences you have bought linked to desolid apply to OUTGOING attacks, or that outgoing attacks simply do not affect the real world (-1/4 to -1/2, probably).

 

That's a much more balanced approach, and you could basically ignore the problem of affects real world - your attacks always would UNLESS you bought them so they couldn't.

 

The problem with that approach is that, well, it does make it difficult to build Kitty Pryde, unless she had a lot more points in desolid than anyone knew - possible as it waas basically her only power for a long time AND, at some point it is probably worth taking some desolid just for the saving on the cost of your attacks.

 

Yes, the above was pretty much the approach I've suggested in other conversations on the subject (Desolid = Tunneling + Force Field + KB Resistance + 5 points for "Can't be grabbed"). Naturally, I consider it fair and balanced.

 

Kitty Pride becomes a character with one movement power plus FF, who eventually bought a Desolid Tricks MP. Not a bad combo.