Weird Idea: Clairsentience as a Disad

[JmOz]

I was thinking about a precog character Idea I have, and I realise that

a) I am going to be spending ALOT of points on his signiture power, that will have NCC on it (But will still be paying alot for it)

That it is intended as mainly a plot point and justification for other powers

 

Then I got to thinking that plot points are usualy represented as Disads, so I wonder, how inapropriate would it be to give a character a physical disad that copies a sensory power, if the character has no control over it, and that the main thing it will do is cause the character grief.

 

Just something to talk about and think about

[pawsplay]

Re: Weird Idea: Clairsentience as a Disad

 

Plot point it may be, but if it is useful in any fashion, it's a Power. In fact, even if it's pretty dismal, I'd still build it as a Power, with Side Effects (usually sucks).

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Weird Idea: Clairsentience as a Disad

 

I would say that if you can get any use at all out of the Power, buy the Power, but then you can theoretically take whatever Disadvantages accrue as well. On the other hand, make sure it's really a Disadvantage and not a Limitation against the Power.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Weird Idea: Clairsentience as a Disad

 

To advocate for the devil, disadvantages are really nothing more than plot hooks you've agreed on with the GM. If you called it : Physical Limitation - Disturbing visions, no one would be worried. The fact that it is built as a sensory power is just to assist the GM in application.

 

However, it probably is not that expensive in terms of actual spend:

 

Retrocognitive, Precognitive Clairsentience (Sight And Hearing Groups) (70 Active Points); No Conscious Control (-2), Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only to show disturbing/unpleasant/unhelpful visions; -1)

 

That's 17 points, and if you can fit it in a framework, it is practically free

 

In addition, if other powers are based on the ability to sense with this power, you can probably link other powers to it, and save a bundle - it depends on overall build.

[Alibear]

Re: Weird Idea: Clairsentience as a Disad

 

If these visions were so vivid that you were totally removed from your own reality (0 dcv) or left you breathless and in pain then perhaps it would be a disadvantage but could just as easily be classed as limitations.

[Badger]

Re: Weird Idea: Clairsentience as a Disad

 

Note: As disturbing and traumatizing as the vision may be, if you know what'll happen, you be prepared to prevent it in some fashion, so this would be helpful. Adding on a Disad in relation to that works Physical or Psych or whatever (not sure) can negate the points you have to pay as a power.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Weird Idea: Clairsentience as a Disad

 

Plot point it may be' date=' but if it is useful in any fashion, it's a Power. In fact, even if it's pretty dismal, I'd still build it as a Power, with Side Effects (usually sucks).[/quote']

 

Pretty harsh definition there.

 

There are quite a few disadvantages that players can squeeze usefulness out of. Reputation and Psych Limitations being the most immediately obvious to me....

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Weird Idea: Clairsentience as a Disad

 

Note: As disturbing and traumatizing as the vision may be' date=' if you know what'll happen, you be prepared to prevent it in some fashion, so this would be helpful. Adding on a Disad in relation to that works Physical or Psych or whatever (not sure) can negate the points you have to pay as a power.[/quote']

 

 

Visions, even accurate ones, can often be misleading or even self fulfilling. You see a vision of yourself looking at The President through the sights of a sniper rifle, you pull the trigger, he falls...are you going to assassinate the President? Better keep away from that rally then.

 

What if it is someone who LOOKS like you, a disguise, and, if you are NOT there, then there wil be no one to stop them? Alternatively, see the plot from the Doctor Who episode 'The Deadly Assassin' from WAAAAY back when.

 

If the visions simply tell you where the GM wants you to concentrate your attention, but not anything useful about what you are anyone else is going to do (or very little, and you are never sure if it IS helpful or not) then it really is just a plot device, and you shouldn't be paying points for it.

 

My feeling is that you probably will get some use out of it, making it value neutral will be a LOT of work for the GM, or you might want to develop the ability later so that it is more reliable, and for those reasons, I would prefer that it be bought as a heavily limited ability, if I were GM, BUT as a matter of principle, I don't think there is anything wrong with taking it simply as a disadvantage.

[pawsplay]

Re: Weird Idea: Clairsentience as a Disad

 

Pretty harsh definition there.

 

There are quite a few disadvantages that players can squeeze usefulness out of. Reputation and Psych Limitations being the most immediately obvious to me....

 

 

Doc

 

A PsychLim might be incidentally useful, but any knowledge of the future on which you can act is intrinsically useful.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Weird Idea: Clairsentience as a Disad

 

A PsychLim might be incidentally useful' date=' but any knowledge of the future on which you can act is intrinsically useful.[/quote']

 

Oh I agree - in my example, you know the President is going to be assassinated, so you could clean up at the betting shop (and get seriously investigated by the authorities), but that is not what RPGs are about. The knowledge you get might not give you any edge at all in the game, assuming you are not just going to amass a fortune in fact the information could get you into all sorts of hot water - warn the security services and you become a suspect.

 

Moreover, if the visions are always accurate, you know the Presisdent is going to be assassinated and you can't stop that: you only have control over what you DIDN'T see. Getting into philosophy here, but maybe the act of observation sets the future in stone, and if you only see bad things then maybe you don't WANT to use the power - at least if you do not observe something nasty happening it might not, whereas if you do, it will. Careful where you go with this line of thinking

[Sean Waters]

Re: Weird Idea: Clairsentience as a Disad

 

Actually I'm assuming precognition: not sure if the OP specified that or just clairsentience.

 

Look before you post, Sean - he did.

 

Of course I knew that in advance, because I'd read the post before, but it didn't stop me posting this one. Perhaps foreknowledge is not all that useful after all. Or perhaps I'm an idiot.

[JmOz]

Re: Weird Idea: Clairsentience as a Disad

 

Actually I'm assuming precognition: not sure if the OP specified that or just clairsentience.

 

Look before you post, Sean - he did.

 

Of course I knew that in advance, because I'd read the post before, but it didn't stop me posting this one. Perhaps foreknowledge is not all that useful after all. Or perhaps I'm an idiot.

 

Thought was pre/reccognition

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Weird Idea: Clairsentience as a Disad

 

A PsychLim might be incidentally useful' date=' but any knowledge of the future on which you can act is intrinsically useful.[/quote']

 

If you can rely on the visions as fact AND be able to act on them and change them then they are useful.

 

A psych limitation can be useful if it aids you in avoiding mind control situations, avoiding being persuaded of things that would be contrary to your best interests.

 

A reputation can make any number of things work for you - a reputation for brutality may be disadvantageous in certain circumstances but when you are making a presence attack or trying to intimidate then is intriniscally useful.

 

As indicated - these visions are not intrinsically useful as the GM will be in full control of them and be using them to provide the gaming group with information he wants them to have. It was also indicated that the main thing it would do is cause the character grief...

 

Sounds a lot more like a disadvantage to me. The GM could quite easly do it by passing over paper that did cause my character grief in game.

 

 

Doc

[pawsplay]

Re: Weird Idea: Clairsentience as a Disad

 

Oh I agree - in my example, you know the President is going to be assassinated, so you could clean up at the betting shop (and get seriously investigated by the authorities), but that is not what RPGs are about. The knowledge you get might not give you any edge at all in the game, assuming you are not just going to amass a fortune in fact the information could get you into all sorts of hot water - warn the security services and you become a suspect.

 

Moreover, if the visions are always accurate, you know the Presisdent is going to be assassinated and you can't stop that: you only have control over what you DIDN'T see. Getting into philosophy here, but maybe the act of observation sets the future in stone, and if you only see bad things then maybe you don't WANT to use the power - at least if you do not observe something nasty happening it might not, whereas if you do, it will. Careful where you go with this line of thinking

 

But you can at least speculate that the President will appear to be assassinated. That's a huge amount of knowledge that other people don't have.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Weird Idea: Clairsentience as a Disad

 

I would say that if you can get any use at all out of the Power' date=' buy the Power, but then you can theoretically take whatever Disadvantages accrue as well. On the other hand, make sure it's really a Disadvantage and not a Limitation against the Power.[/quote']

 

Pretty harsh definition there.

 

There are quite a few disadvantages that players can squeeze usefulness out of. Reputation and Psych Limitations being the most immediately obvious to me....

 

I've got to agree with Doc. Note that, since Mind Control is affected by Psych Lim's, ALL Psych limbs can be useful under some circumstances.

[GamePhil]

Re: Weird Idea: Clairsentience as a Disad

 

I'd personally allow it, depending on what exactly you want.

 

"I am the catspaw of the GM, here to help the plot along. All my visions do is allow me to actuate the adventure, I really can't act much to change them other than to get the group involved." - Probably a Disadvantage.

 

"I am still a catspaw of the GM, but I can react to my visions to some advantage, possibly attenuating or eliminating bad results." - Take both.

 

"I can act or fail to act on my visions, at my discression, and get a benefit to my actions because of them." - Power

 

"I am trying to force the GM to give me visions that will destroy his carefully laid plans." - Get out. Not what JmOz is known for, though.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Weird Idea: Clairsentience as a Disad

 

But you can at least speculate that the President will appear to be assassinated. That's a huge amount of knowledge that other people don't have.

 

Hence by comment about betting. Sure, in the real world, such visions would be enormously useful, especially if they did not feature you (if you see what I mean) but in a game - well - if all you use the ability for is to accumulate wealth, you'd have been better off buying the perk.

[pawsplay]

Re: Weird Idea: Clairsentience as a Disad

 

Hence by comment about betting. Sure' date=' in the real world, such visions would be enormously useful, especially if they did not feature you (if you see what I mean) but in a game - well - if all you use the ability for is to accumulate wealth, you'd have been better off buying the perk.[/quote']

 

Even in a game, even if the visions are purely there to screw with you, they are your visions, and it's your choice whether to share them with the other PCs. Hence it is, at the end of the day, a Power.

 

And honestly, how expensive is that going to be? This is what I built for an untrained Jedi:

 

17 Visions: Precognitive Clairsentience (Sight and Hearing Groups), Reduced END (0 END) (+1/2), Precognition Only (-1), Vague and Unclear (-1/2), No Conscious Control (-2).

 

It's just 17 points, and it doesn't even include a "you are usually screwed" clause. Heck, just throw in a Susceptibility to your own visions to show you much they upset you, and the whole thing will cost you a whopping 2 points. Throw in a psychological limitation about how much you worry about them, and you're already making points. And that's with the power!

 

Bottom line: the basic trait seems to be a power. The things that are bad about it must be Side Effects or some kind of Disadvantage. Knowing the future, however vaguely and possibly misleadingly, is still a trait that gives your PC a great deal of power.

[GamePhil]

Re: Weird Idea: Clairsentience as a Disad

 

Bottom line: the basic trait seems to be a power. The things that are bad about it must be Side Effects or some kind of Disadvantage. Knowing the future' date=' however vaguely and possibly misleadingly, is still a trait that gives your PC a great deal of power.[/quote']

 

And therein lies the point of contention: I don't necessarily believe that to be the case. See the story of Cassandra of Troy for an excellent example. I don't believe there's any way she had a Power, since it gave her no benefit and was entirely a curse. She could not change anything, and she could not get anyone to believe her. Her prescience merely caused her suffering in advance.

 

If someone's going to throw themselves up as a sacrificial lamb and allow me to mess with them to move the story along, I'm personally inclined to show my gratitude. Not making them pay for the privelage, or perhaps even giving them some points, is the least I can do.

[JmOz]

Re: Weird Idea: Clairsentience as a Disad

 

for a popular version of the idea, look at Cordilla from Angel

[GamePhil]

Re: Weird Idea: Clairsentience as a Disad

 

for a popular version of the idea' date=' look at Cordilla from Angel[/quote']

 

That might be a borderline case, since it did allow them to prepare for the creatures they fought. Still, the massive drawbacks are probably greater than than the benefits, especially when you consider how it all went.

 

As a specific example, I'd more likely call that one a Watched by PTB, coupled with a Contact: PTB, and either a large Side Effect on the Contact or a Susceptability or two when given visions, rather than using Clairsentience.

[pawsplay]

Re: Weird Idea: Clairsentience as a Disad

 

And therein lies the point of contention: I don't necessarily believe that to be the case. See the story of Cassandra of Troy for an excellent example. I don't believe there's any way she had a Power, since it gave her no benefit and was entirely a curse. She could not change anything, and she could not get anyone to believe her. Her prescience merely caused her suffering in advance.

 

I think ultimately she caused her own suffering. Knowing what was to befall, she had an advantage over those who did not, and had the opportunity to come to peace with that. Further, she had the option of saying nothing, but chose not to. Not only did she have a Power, she had an especially useful one. It was just the case she could not warn others.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Weird Idea: Clairsentience as a Disad

 

What I want to know is why is Sean so sure that the President will be assassinated?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Weird Idea: Clairsentience as a Disad

 

I think it'd be interesting if you had a Precog who had Physical Limitation: Plagued by Nightmares of Possible Futures.

 

Every once in a while the GM might give you a future you can use In Game, but most of the time your Precog just draws in your subconscious fears and creates nightmare futures. Sleep well.

 

 

So in general - yes, it's a possible combination I think would be good.

[Ocelot]

Re: Weird Idea: Clairsentience as a Disad

 

Tangential Premise:

 

I'm building a vigilante crime-fighter.

 

He's got some CSLs. Like, ten of them, to all Combat. Those cost some points.

He's also got a lot of resistant PD. In fact, he can catch a bullet in his teeth. Literally. That cost some points, too.

Did I mention he can fly? Right. He can do that. And that cost me some points.

 

And rightly so. All those things cost points.

 

He's also got a Disad: Reputation - Ridiculously Badass Vigilante Crimefighter.

 

I see no reason why a given character concept / special effect can't cost points AND be a Disad.

 

Build a little power, cost the character some points, and also give him a Disad Crazy Psychic Freak Powers Cause Character Frequent Grief, Especially When the GM is Grumpy and/or Unprepared for Evening's Gaming Session.