How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

[Bloodstone]

EDIT: Steve answered already

[pawsplay]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

Some officialness to throw onto the discussion:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62617

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

Re: Rebuking Force Powers ...

 

Just buy all the powers with Requires a Skill Roll: Use The Force and subject to skill vs skill checks. Foes automatically make UtF checks when you try to use a power on them, thus providing that degree of 'Jedi sluff off Force powers easily', while they work perfectly on non-Force Sensitive grunts.

[Alibear]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

If you are good enough you can missile deflect anything. Darth Vader can deflect blaster bolts after all.

[pawsplay]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

Re: Rebuking Force Powers ...

 

Just buy all the powers with Requires a Skill Roll: Use The Force and subject to skill vs skill checks. Foes automatically make UtF checks when you try to use a power on them, thus providing that degree of 'Jedi sluff off Force powers easily', while they work perfectly on non-Force Sensitive grunts.

 

It does not appear to me that Force powers work this way. But that's a side issue, although I will say that Force slam especially does not appear to work this way.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

It does not appear to me that Force powers work this way. But that's a side issue' date=' although I will say that Force slam [i']especially[/i] does not appear to work this way.

 

Or, nobody ever succeeded at their 'rebuke' check. It's hard to tell. Since there's no visible indication of when Force powers are at work (gestures are unnecessary), with a few exceptions like Lightning, people could have been trying to Force Slam left right and sideways during the movies and we just didn't know.

[pawsplay]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

Or' date=' nobody ever succeeded at their 'rebuke' check. It's hard to tell. Since there's no visible indication of when Force powers are at work (gestures are unnecessary), with a few exceptions like Lightning, people could have been trying to Force Slam left right and sideways during the movies and we just didn't know.[/quote']

 

Well, apart from the fact that George always clues us in to the use of Force powers (with a telltale gesture, eyes rolling back, a low hum, or the like), this rationale rests on negative proof. I think it's much more sensible to make Force deflection an explicit Power, and one not effortlessly used.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

Well' date=' apart from the fact that George always clues us in to the use of Force powers (with a telltale gesture, eyes rolling back, a low hum, or the like), this rationale rests on negative proof. I think it's much more sensible to make Force deflection an explicit Power, and one not effortlessly used.[/quote']

 

Again, that's for the sake of the audience. It's not necessary on the part of the Jedi. Obi-Wan could just have easily Mind-Tricked the troopers in Mos Eisley without doing the hand-wave, but it would have confused the audience.

 

Something like +X levels with Force Powers, gestures might be appropriate, though.

[sbarron]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

Should I just assume Kenobi has at least 16 BODY and 6 PD (and got lucky)' date=' and that a force slam will maim most non-Jedi? Maybe he just rolled with the punch? Thoughts? [/quote'] I'm not sure how you figure a force slam will maim most non-jedi. Even your force slam, all 60 APs worth, would only do 5 Body and 20 stun to your average joe. That isn't even an imparing wound, and it leaves the victim only 1/4 dead.

 

I'd say there is little question that Kenobi has at least a 6 PD. And I'd also think that most Force users would have at least 3 PD/3 ED worth of Combat Luck, that many non-combat types wouldn't have. (Although, Han, Chewy, Princess Leah, R2D2 and C3PO all certainly do. So maybe combat luck is more common then I realize.)

 

What I can't figure out is how to actually make people fall down. To deliver Knockdown requires an impairing wound' date=' and I don't see it breaking a lot of bones, at least on human targets. I thought about applying Does Knockback to knock down a Heroic Genre wall, but that leaves the situation where opponents go down, but they don't stay down (as, for instance, battle droids do). 6d6 EB is enough to Disable a battle droid, but rather punishing on a human.[/quote']I can't figure this part out. Are you saying that a 6d6 EB is too big of an attack against humans, or too little? Or are you saying the mechanics don't do enough knockback/down, or too much?

 

This in particular..."I thought about applying Does Knockback to knock down a Heroic Genre wall, but that leaves the situation where opponents go down, but they don't stay down (as, for instance, battle droids do)." Why do you think opponents wouldn't stay down? Do you mean droids won't stay down, and you think they should?

 

I guess I'm hoping that you'll better articulate what it is you're looking for. Because so far no one's ideas seem to make you any happier about the power. If you're just looking for a way for people to get knocked around a little from Force Push, how about just ruling that non-droids take 1" of knockback for each BODY they actually done to them from the attack and be done with it.

[Alibear]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

Again, that's for the sake of the audience. It's not necessary on the part of the Jedi. Obi-Wan could just have easily Mind-Tricked the troopers in Mos Eisley without doing the hand-wave, but it would have confused the audience.

 

 

 

Hmm, I'm not so sure I'd want to change that..I'd tae the movies as canon.............. apart from the midchlorean shite!

[pawsplay]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

Again, that's for the sake of the audience. It's not necessary on the part of the Jedi. Obi-Wan could just have easily Mind-Tricked the troopers in Mos Eisley without doing the hand-wave, but it would have confused the audience.

 

Something like +X levels with Force Powers, gestures might be appropriate, though.

 

I think that any time we see a Jedi do a Significant But Unnecessary Gesture, that actually signals they are using a power with Concentration 1/2 DCV. I don't think there are any required gestures. Just as example, they commonly gesture when moving objects, but in the Anakin/Padme brunch scene in EpII it is clear it is not only possible but not terribly difficult to make do without.

 

If you wanted to, I suppose you could set up some kind of Variable Limitations, with Gestures, Concentration, and Extra END, but that seems like it might be simulation overkill. I don't think Lucas ever worried about that.

 

The only time we see a Jedi get caught making an obvious gesture is when Qui Gon tries to mind trick Watto, who is not only resistant to the power but apparently familiar with Jedi mannerisms.

 

Hm... Distinctive Features: Gestures while using the Force (Easily Concealed) -5 points?

[pawsplay]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

I can't figure this part out. Are you saying that a 6d6 EB is too big of an attack against humans, or too little? Or are you saying the mechanics don't do enough knockback/down, or too much?

 

They don't do enough, in this case. 6d6 EB AP is enough to do about 5 BODY, which will break someone's arm and knock them down, unless they have a BODY of 12, in which case it will do neither. 10 BODY will knock someone down and move them a couple of hexes, but will hospitalize them for months.

 

In other words, knockdown in Heroic games is explicitly tied to maiming. Force slams do not seem to maim.

[sbarron]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

Oh, and one other thing. In the KOTOR games, wasn't killing droids a seperate ability from Force Push? Maybe you could seperate the two attacks to better simulate their differing effects.

 

Force Slam EB 6d6, Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Double Knockback (+3/4) (67 Active Points); Can Be Missile Deflected (-1/4), Reduced By Range (-1/4)

 

Destroy Droid RKA 2d6, Penetrating (+1/2) (45 Active Points); Limited Power Only vs. Droids (-1), Limited Power Not Through Force Fields (-1/2), Reduced By Range (-1/4)

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

Hmm' date=' I'm not so sure I'd want to change that..I'd tae the movies as canon.............. apart from the midchlorean shite![/quote']

 

As stated, midichlorians were intended from the get-go, they merely weren't mentioned. Whether you like it or not, they are canon. The fact that they make perfect sense is only tangential ...

 

However, there are plenty of instances of Jedi using the Force without gestures. Luke doesn't flinch when he gives the Gamorreans in RotJ a quick neck grip. Heck, his hands are tied when he levitates C-3PO on Endor. It's questionable whether it was Luke or Leia using Telepathy at the end of Empire.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

They don't do enough, in this case. 6d6 EB AP is enough to do about 5 BODY, which will break someone's arm and knock them down, unless they have a BODY of 12, in which case it will do neither. 10 BODY will knock someone down and move them a couple of hexes, but will hospitalize them for months.

 

In other words, knockdown in Heroic games is explicitly tied to maiming. Force slams do not seem to maim.

 

So, either buy Does Knockback, or use the Knockback instead of Knockdown rules. I think enough bodies go flying to warrant the latter, myself.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

So' date=' either buy Does Knockback, or use the Knockback instead of Knockdown rules. I think enough bodies go flying to warrant the latter, myself.[/quote']

 

For my part, I'd just go with campaign standard Knockdown rules, but allow Does Knockback as an advantage for appropriate power, Force powers in this case.

 

Not much different than my old FH game... one player had a Force-mage c with quite a few of his spells bought with Does KB.

 

Heck, I could also see a separate "Does KB" naked advantage power applied to Lightsabers ("Force Strike"?), given how often they seem to knock stuff around with blades that are supposed to cut clean through said stuff

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

I don't think what we see on screen agrees with your interpretation. Darth Maul uses a force slam against Kenobi basically as a surprise move. Sidious manages to hit Yoda with both lightning and a force slam. Dooku manages to both slam Anakin and force grip Kenobi.

 

It would appear to me that force slam and Sith lightning pretty much always work unless the target deflects with a lightsaber or uses the Force for defense. In my conversion notes, I've built a Missile Reflection, only for deflecting Force powers.

 

I think we may be just talking past one another. I agree with what you are describing above. I just have some pretty specific ideas on how I would translate those ideas into HERO. My apologies if I have come across too forcefully (pun intended).

 

Your Sidious and Dooku examples are easily explained in HERO terms by giving the characters CSL/PSL's with Sweep. Combining that with Surprise will usually work vs. all but the most paranoid targets (Somebody with Defense Maneuver IV).

 

A GM might consider in this case that a character can use basic Missile Deflection vs. multiple attacks per the standard rules but only if they are of the same category (blaster bolts, Force Slams, Force Lightning) Handling multiple categories is only. Then allow more experienced characters to buy a skill or familiarity with using MD vs. multiple types of attack in the same Phase.

[pawsplay]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

So my impression of the overall consensus for:

 

There are three pretty good solutions:

1) Allow Does Knockback in a Heroic campaign, with all the attendant complications

2) Ranged Martial Arts

3) Extra DCs, Only to Add to Calculate Knockdown

 

The last two are the most kosher, and hence in my mind preferable. Since #2 involves a rules expansion from Ultimate Martial Artist, I think #3 wins by a hair. I will report back with results.

 

Incidentally, I am fully prepared to face the possiblity that Jedi are outlandish in Hero point terms. That in itself would be an educational discovery. But since the Jedi we see in the films all seem to specialize in a handful of tricks, rather than knowing ALL the Force powers, I suspect they are quite workable.

 

My next big hurdle is a bigger one: custom equipment. Do Jedi have to pay points for their self-constructed, customized lightsabers? Does Han Solo have to pay points for the Falcon?

 

Well, let's see how the Force powers go, first.

[Kdansky]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

By the way, I would describe Star Wars not as Science Fiction, but as Fantasy.

 

There's (mysterious) magic, there's swordfigthing and it starts off with "A long time ago, in a galaxy far away". I've seen it classified as Fantasy more often than not. By Roleplayers. Everyone else has no clue anyway

 

 

And Jedis *are* more expensive than normal guys. Vader plain owns. He even has little problem with Han who is probably the most capable non-jedi. (And shoots first)

[pawsplay]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

The Skywalkers are a breed apart. Most Jedi? Jango didn't look too nervous about shooting one down. They're super tough, but there are other things out there just as dangerous. Vader may the be the "best pilot in the Galaxy" according to some, but to my eyes, Han owned him.

[Alibear]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

Han was a sneaky SOB and would have to do clever things to get out of a spot. I fancy Vader was a bit overconfident in his jedi-reaction driven piloting skills and never looked outside the box.

[Kdansky]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

Plain 1on1 combat, any jedi vs any non-jedi.

 

Jedi wins. Hands down. Lightsaber Missile Deflection destroys blaster weapons. Force Choke hold is win, Force Slam is win, Force anything is win. So yeah, Jedi has more points.

[pawsplay]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

Plain 1on1 combat, any jedi vs any non-jedi.

 

Jedi wins. Hands down. Lightsaber Missile Deflection destroys blaster weapons. Force Choke hold is win, Force Slam is win, Force anything is win. So yeah, Jedi has more points.

 

Okay, I pick Jango Fett versus Coleman Trebor. For the second round, how about General Greivous versus any Jedi other than Anakin or a member of the Council?

[Kdansky]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

You've never seen a 200 cp character win against a 300 cp character? (If Jango is even much less than a redshirt jedi). And that general is a BBEG, do you assume he has as few points as a random redshirt? Now you're making the Vader mistake: Put up the best of the non-jedi vs the worst of the jedi.

[pawsplay]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

You said any.

 

Also Coleman Trebor happens to be a member of the Jedi Council, which makes him among the best of the Jedi.