Power Thresholds

[Sean Waters]

During a recent discussion on regeneration it was mentioned that it is a very useful ability to have BUT, as it is never going to be the equal of a defence, in terms of points spent, and as the main utility is in allowing you to recover quickly between combats, the first point yuo buy is going to deliver more utility thant he ones that follow.

 

As a result, looking at it in terms of point cost v utility, it would make sense for the first point to cost more, and subsequent points to cost less.

 

Similar arguments might be made about something like flight: being able to not fall is a really useful ability, and you get it in full with your first 1" of flight. There are probably other examples.

 

What do people think about 'threshold values' for powers reflecting an increased cost to 'buy into' a power that has a lot of the utility front loaded?

 

On the one hand it (perhaps) more accurately reflects point utility. OTOH it is a bit more complex, and might lead to rampant munchkinism (OK, I'm buying 0 END on my flight, but only on all the points AFTER that expensive first 1"...)

[Kdansky]

Re: Power Thresholds

 

Teleport is also in that category.

 

We realized the same and tried to do that for a game. Didn't really work out. It was way more complex, a lot easier to abuse (your example...) and didn't really change much.

[jtelson]

Re: Power Thresholds

 

This was my understanding of why there were minimum costs in previous editions (Thus requiring you to purchase 2 points of Regen, 5" of Flight or Teleport, 5 points of Flash/Power/Mental defense etc). When I'm running a campaign where this concerns me (a low point one) I generally enforce the old minimumns. It's easier than building all powers like EDM (Pay X points then add features).

[Kdansky]

Re: Power Thresholds

 

I just found another one: Mental Defense. 5ER states that if you buy any amount, you get EGO/5 for free. I've not (yet) found the paragraph that you always have EGO/5.

 

Aren't EGO attacks immensly powerful like that? 50 AP limit, 5d6 ego attack, effectively NND without the "common countermeasure" thing. Wow. Yes, I've never had an EGO attack in my games before. Not my fault if no player wanted to have a mentalist

[JmOz]

Re: Power Thresholds

 

I just found another one: Mental Defense. 5ER states that if you buy any amount, you get EGO/5 for free. I've not (yet) found the paragraph that you always have EGO/5.

 

Aren't EGO attacks immensly powerful like that? 50 AP limit, 5d6 ego attack, effectively NND without the "common countermeasure" thing. Wow. Yes, I've never had an EGO attack in my games before. Not my fault if no player wanted to have a mentalist

 

It is a common house rule, it is commented on briefly in the chapter that discusses how to change the system

[Kdansky]

Re: Power Thresholds

 

Ok, I will use that then. Not that 2-3 points of defenses will make a huge impression anyway. 6d6 Ego Attack seems rather brutal (21 average roll, 3 Mental def, 80% to hit roll due to high ego vs normal ego and no dodge/block allowed), compared to 12d6 EB vs 24 ED (42 roll, that's 18 through defs, more or less the same, but nearly everyone has higher DCV than ECV and they can abort to dodge / Missile Deflect it, etc etc). I suppose it's balanced by the fact that every point spent in mental defenses is twice as effective as ED (attacks are half the size, defenses cost the same).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Power Thresholds

 

Having MD work as a figured characteristic if you buy ANY of it is a bit weird, actually. I mean, given that the 'threshold' value for most mental powers is EGO, EGO+10 etc, that beceomes (EGO+MD), (EGO+MD)+10 etc. As MD is based on EGO, in fact we are working against (1.2xEGO+Points spent on MD).

 

I mean, OK, but it does seem a bit odd, given that EGO is already a defence for teh bulk of mental powers.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Power Thresholds

 

We realized the same and tried to do that for a game. Didn't really work out. It was way more complex' date=' a lot easier to abuse (your example...) and didn't really change much.[/quote']

 

QFT. This sounds to me like an argument for costing based on diminishing returns; i.e., 20" of Flight is not double (or exponentially more valuable) than 10" of flight. In some games, you're unlikely to notice the difference from one to the other, honestly, depending on the venue (again, this is dependent on the campaign, but)

 

Having flat values seriously reduces the chance of abuse, and when I think back to d20 3.0, where you could, by RAW, take "one level" in a class and then go to your regular class, I wound up with 3 out of 5 players starting off as Rangers, because the 3.0 version was what we call "front-loaded." It got everything you wanted at level one, and didn't matter beyond that; they could take another more effective class (like DRU, CLR, FGT, and so on).

[Trebuchet]

Re: Power Thresholds

 

Ok' date=' I will use that then. Not that 2-3 points of defenses will make a huge impression anyway. 6d6 Ego Attack seems rather brutal (21 average roll, 3 Mental def, 80% to hit roll due to high ego vs normal ego and no dodge/block allowed), compared to 12d6 EB vs 24 ED (42 roll, that's 18 through defs, more or less the same, but nearly everyone has higher DCV than ECV and they can abort to dodge / Missile Deflect it, etc etc). I suppose it's balanced by the fact that every point spent in mental defenses is twice as effective as ED (attacks are half the size, defenses cost the same).[/quote']Mental attacks also require line of sight; meaning just hiding around a corner or pulling a curtain closed can protect the target. The low number of dice means few if any supers (and many tough normals) will be Stunned by an Ego Attack or Mind Controlled to a significant degree.

 

I've had a powerful mentalist in my campaign for several years. He's powerful, but not unbalancing. Simply sticking a few points of MD and/or high EGO onto potential opponents goes a long way.

[Mr_Yuck]

Re: Power Thresholds

 

My experience with Mentalists is that you have to be very careful with them.

They are one of the few archetypes that can really run willy-nilly on a campaign with several of their powers. (Imagine a villain trying to conceal a plot affecting fact from a mentallist with Telepathy!)

 

I've seen both sides of this though...

The mentallist is very effective and has a wide range of powers to use.

 

The GM becomes disillusioned with the character due to his extreme effectiveness and suddenly most everyone has at least some mental defense or high Ego.

 

This made the player of said mentalist feel like the whole campaign was 'rigged against his character'.

 

I personally don't like the idea of everyone having the base Ego/5 Mental Defense. I've always felt the average normal was an open book to a mentalist...

 

But I think the mentallist is one that you have to plan very carefully for if you are going to have one in the campaign.

 

Just my $0.02 on this!

[Trebuchet]

Re: Power Thresholds

 

My experience with Mentalists is that you have to be very careful with them.

They are one of the few archetypes that can really run willy-nilly on a campaign with several of their powers. (Imagine a villain trying to conceal a plot affecting fact from a mentallist with Telepathy!)

 

I've seen both sides of this though...

The mentallist is very effective and has a wide range of powers to use.

 

The GM becomes disillusioned with the character due to his extreme effectiveness and suddenly most everyone has at least some mental defense or high Ego.

 

This made the player of said mentalist feel like the whole campaign was 'rigged against his character'.

 

I personally don't like the idea of everyone having the base Ego/5 Mental Defense. I've always felt the average normal was an open book to a mentalist...

 

But I think the mentallist is one that you have to plan very carefully for if you are going to have one in the campaign.

 

Just my $0.02 on this!

To me it only makes sense for major villains to have respectable (18+) EGO ratings, which makes it harder for mentalists to read and/or control their minds. A little bit of Mental Defense (perhaps because the bad guys know the heroes have a mentalist in their ranks) can make things much more difficult. If the bad guys use mooks, then telling the mooks nothing of the villain's plans (or better yet, having the bad guy deliberately give the mooks false information about the plan) can work very well to prevent mentalists from short-circuiting the GM's basic scenario.

 

In our campaign the mentalist is no more effective than the professional detective at solving mysteries.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Power Thresholds

 

My experience with Mentalists is that you have to be very careful with them.

They are one of the few archetypes that can really run willy-nilly on a campaign with several of their powers. (Imagine a villain trying to conceal a plot affecting fact from a mentallist with Telepathy!)

 

I've seen both sides of this though...

The mentallist is very effective and has a wide range of powers to use.

 

The GM becomes disillusioned with the character due to his extreme effectiveness and suddenly most everyone has at least some mental defense or high Ego.

 

This made the player of said mentalist feel like the whole campaign was 'rigged against his character'.

 

I personally don't like the idea of everyone having the base Ego/5 Mental Defense. I've always felt the average normal was an open book to a mentalist...

 

But I think the mentallist is one that you have to plan very carefully for if you are going to have one in the campaign.

 

Just my $0.02 on this!

 

On the villain thing, there are a couple of tricks you can pull. Although they are not fool proof, and they won;t work as effectively after the first couple of gos, they do tend to make mentalists less confident of their 'fool proof' abilities.

 

One involves a master villain giving his henchman deliberately false information about his plans EXPECTING him to eb interrogated. The henchman thinks it is true, might even fight to protect the info, but the telepathy pulls it right out of his skull - and they Heroes are off on a wrong 'un.

 

Another (and I've had this used on me) is where there is a genuine mistake - for instance if a witness sees a crime and they see this SPB with claws leap into an alley, and then, two minutes later, see a lacerated cop being hauled out fo the alley, they might believe that SPB did it, whereas he was in fact fighting off some knife wielding hoods out fo sight.

 

On the whole though, I do agree - mental powers are a potential plot derailer.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power Thresholds

 

I just found another one: Mental Defense. 5ER states that if you buy any amount, you get EGO/5 for free. I've not (yet) found the paragraph that you always have EGO/5.

 

Aren't EGO attacks immensly powerful like that? 50 AP limit, 5d6 ego attack, effectively NND without the "common countermeasure" thing. Wow. Yes, I've never had an EGO attack in my games before. Not my fault if no player wanted to have a mentalist

 

An Ego attack is AVLD (+1 1/2), not NND. And it's IPE (+3/4). And it's got LOS Range (+1/2). And you target EV (advantage not known) All that for only a built in+1 advantage.

 

And people complain about the cost of STR!

[JmOz]

Re: Power Thresholds

 

An Ego attack is AVLD (+1 1/2), not NND. And it's IPE (+3/4). And it's got LOS Range (+1/2). And you target EV (advantage not known) All that for only a built in+1 advantage.

 

And people complain about the cost of STR!

 

QFT, LOL...but you forgot 1/2 end, after all Ego blast is only 10 active points

[Kdansky]

Re: Power Thresholds

 

An Ego attack is AVLD (+1 1/2), not NND. And it's IPE (+3/4). And it's got LOS Range (+1/2). And you target EV (advantage not known) All that for only a built in+1 advantage.

 

And people complain about the cost of STR!

 

Great one!

 

That brings my concerns to the point. When I read Ego Attack, I thought: "But that's soo powerful, nobody is going to have defenses against it! Why is that only +1?"

 

It also gets Visible against Mental Awareness -1/2 (or 1/4)

[JmOz]

Re: Power Thresholds

 

Great one!

 

That brings my concerns to the point. When I read Ego Attack, I thought: "But that's soo powerful, nobody is going to have defenses against it! Why is that only +1?"

 

It also gets Visible against Mental Awareness -1/2 (or 1/4)

 

nope, it is still visible to one sense group, the chosen one is mental...No savings for you

[Kdansky]

Re: Power Thresholds

 

Ehhh :/ Then... Erm... Well...

 

EGO ATTACK IS TOO CHEAP!!! I need to open another thread!!

 

 

Luckily, Ego Attack is only too cheap in what it does, and doesn't give figureds too Or well, then it would be BOCON and called "str". Hah!

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Power Thresholds

 

Just had a thought re: Mental Defense - How 'bout treating it like the doubling rule for HKAs? You can only add EGO/5 *up to* the amount you actually buy. So a non-mentalist with a 13 EGO who spends 1 point on MDef, only gets 2 points of it, instead of 4. If he spends 3 points, he can then double this with his EGO/5 and get 6 points of MDef.

 

And BTW re: The perceived cheapness of Ego Attack assumes that those advantages, AVLD and IPE in particular, are correctly priced - that they give you the correct amount of bang-for-the-buck.

 

AVLD costs 3 times as much as AP, and accomplishes less than 2 times as much. For example.

[JmOz]

Re: Power Thresholds

 

Just had a thought re: Mental Defense - How 'bout treating it like the doubling rule for HKAs? You can only add EGO/5 *up to* the amount you actually buy. So a non-mentalist with a 13 EGO who spends 1 point on MDef, only gets 2 points of it, instead of 4. If he spends 3 points, he can then double this with his EGO/5 and get 6 points of MDef.

 

And BTW re: The perceived cheapness of Ego Attack assumes that those advantages, AVLD and IPE in particular, are correctly priced - that they give you the correct amount of bang-for-the-buck.

 

AVLD costs 3 times as much as AP, and accomplishes less than 2 times as much. For example.

 

personaly I am for just making MD a figured characteristic, NCM set to 8...

[Trebuchet]

Re: Power Thresholds

 

personaly I am for just making MD a figured characteristic' date=' NCM set to 8...[/quote']This has always been my own preference. Unfortunately, none of my co-GMs agree that all characters should have inherent free MD.

 

Of the eight PCs in our Champions team, only two have any MD (with a third having the ability to gain some though a small VPP).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Power Thresholds

 

The trouble with making MD a figured stat (or for that matter using the current rule that MD = point spend+EGO/5) is that EGO is already a defence for the majority of mental powers (everything except Ego Attack) as you have to overcome EGO+MD to determine level of effect. This simply improves the utility of EGO, which is already a pretty efficient characteristic, without increasing the cost..

 

My preference would be to got the other way and remove the EGO/5 freebie, which prejudices teh characters who probably need Mental Defence more than anyone - characters with low Ego to start off with.

[pawsplay]

Re: Power Thresholds

 

The reason thresholds were in place was to prevent cherry picking of minor benefits. The reason they were tossed aside was that every single genre book had to break the rules to build very basic effects.

[Markdoc]

Re: Power Thresholds

 

I was also concerned about the cost of Ego Attack compared to EB + AVLD in the past, but having seen it in action, I'm a bit more relaxed because it does not seem to be a gamebreaker. The reason, I think, is the high active points cost: at a starting cost of 10 rather than 5+advantages, further advantaging it is pretty expensive. That means most people take their ego attack straight, no cheese.

 

On the original topic, I agree that the threshold effect is annoying (and Regen is one of the worst offenders because 1 point of regen is so useful - and cheap if you limit it with a smidgeon of extra time) but in practice, every solution we've come up with was more intrusive than original annoyance, so I just leave it alone, these days.

 

cheers, Mark

[Trebuchet]

Re: Power Thresholds

 

I was also concerned about the cost of Ego Attack compared to EB + AVLD in the past' date=' but having seen it in action, I'm a bit more relaxed because it does not seem to be a gamebreaker. The reason, I think, is the high active points cost: at a starting cost of 10 rather than 5+advantages, further advantaging it is pretty expensive. That means most people take their ego attack straight, no cheese.[/quote']That's been my own experience as well. The 5 - 6d6 Ego Attacks typical in a campaign will Stun very few characters on one hit.; it's simply too small. Just like with most physical or energy attacks, it will take two or three solid hits to put down an opponent. Given how inexpensive MD is, Ego Attack is probably fairly balanced. I'd still like to see some inherent MD against Ego Blast since EGO provides no defense against it as it does for other Ego powers, but I can live with it as is.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power Thresholds

 

I was also concerned about the cost of Ego Attack compared to EB + AVLD in the past' date=' but having seen it in action, I'm a bit more relaxed because it does not seem to be a gamebreaker. The reason, I think, is the high active points cost: at a starting cost of 10 rather than 5+advantages, further advantaging it is pretty expensive. That means most people take their ego attack straight, no cheese.[/quote']

 

I tend to aree that Ego Attack works in practice. However, that seems to imply that the advantages that are needed to create an Ego Attack may be overpriced.

 

One major advantage of the Ego Attack is its invisibility and lack of any range modifiers. Leveraging the Mentalist Sniper angle can make the Ego Attack vastly overpowered. However, my experience is that players and GM's agree not to leverage the Mentalist Sniper aspect of the power, so these benefits go unutilized. Seems fair - the pricing is such that we don't really pay for those advantages anyway, so not getting the benefits is not punitive. However, the isue would go away if mental attacks did not come bundled with IPE (+3/4) and Range = LOS (+1/2) for free. The need to purchase these would be a muich better tip-off to a GM that the player intends on exploiting these advantages. Given we don't allow them to be exploited now, their removal would not change the effectivenes of the power, so it would remain 10 points per d6.

 

The second major advantage of the Ego Atack is its targetting of mental defense. This costs +1 1/2 as an advantage but effectively +1 when bundled into Ego Attack. Perhaps this indicates that AVLD is overpriced. An EB: NND Mental Defense would have the same doubled cost, but would be completely blocked by even 1 point invested in Mental Defense. Here, perhaps the answer is to redefine NND to include AVLD, such that, when NND is purchased with a specific defense power (eg. power defense, mental defense, force field) as the Defense, that "non-normal" defense subtracts from the NND's damage, but when the defense is something else (like Life Support or Flame Powers) it blocks the NND entirely. We've already established that 6d6 which applies against a non-standard defense is not overpowered. [We still have issues of advantage stacking, but we have those regardless. These could, if desired, be adressed by making Attack with No Normal Defense a 10 point per 1d6 power, and removing the NND advantage entirely.]

 

The third advantage (differentiation?) of Ego Attack is to target using ECV instead of DCV. We've seen threads in the past that question how significant this is as an advantage. The rules suggest that powers can be defined as "mental powers" and be based on ECV at no cost. More explicitly defining this rule, and perhaps including the posibility, for appropriate SFX, of OECV versus DEX DCV [mentally directed attack such as hurling knives with your mind], or DEX OCV vs DECV [alpha waves directed by physical movement], would resolve this issue.

 

The bottom line, to me, is that either Ego Attack is underpriced or the advantages one would use to build it from an EB are overpriced. As discussed above, I believe it is a combination, but the underpricing is overridden by GM/Player collusion to not use those benefits to their full effect.