temporarily negating limitations

[dstarfire]

There are a LOT of interesting tricks are represented by the absence of a limitation. (the classic 'bottomless quiver' is nothing more than removing the charges limitation, bouncing your thrown weapon of a surface so it returns to you, etc. ).

 

How would you model the ability to partially nullify one or more limitations on one or more powers (with activation roll as a trick, only in certain circumstances, etc.)? What if you could do this for other characters?

 

Basically I'm trying to make a power that nullifies another powers limitations?

[Tonio]

Re: temporarily negating limitations

 

Same as you'd do for a Naked Advantage, I'd say.

 

Like, say you have a 12d6 EB, OIF: Ring of Power, costing 40 pts.

Now, you have another "power" that's Buying Off OIF for up to 60 pts of EB, with Activation Roll, 11-. Costing 10pts total (20 pts is the buyoff, the Activation Roll, 11- is a -1 Limitation).

 

So now you have an Energy Blast which you normally need the ring to fire, but you can try to fire it w/o your ring, and succeed on an 11- roll. You could also apply UBO to the buyoff, so you can negate other people's Limitations, too.

[JmOz]

Re: temporarily negating limitations

 

Same as you'd do for a Naked Advantage, I'd say.

 

Like, say you have a 12d6 EB, OIF: Ring of Power, costing 40 pts.

Now, you have another "power" that's Buying Off OIF for up to 60 pts of EB, with Activation Roll, 11-. Costing 10pts total (20 pts is the buyoff, the Activation Roll, 11- is a -1 Limitation).

 

So now you have an Energy Blast which you normally need the ring to fire, but you can try to fire it w/o your ring, and succeed on an 11- roll. You could also apply UBO to the buyoff, so you can negate other people's Limitations, too.

 

My prefered method, but sometimes you need to bend/break the rules for is to use Variable Limitations

[Tonio]

Re: temporarily negating limitations

 

Oh certainly, for the case I described, Variable Limitation would be a better match. But that wouldn't work for the UBO case dstarfire described. =)

[Alibear]

Re: temporarily negating limitations

 

What about using the pushing rules? If you make the ego roll you get an extra 10 points which you can use to buy off a limitation rather than increase raw power?

 

It doesn't work in every situation, it plain doesn't make sense for many sfx's but might work in certain circumstances.

[Kdansky]

Re: temporarily negating limitations

 

I believe this is actually in 5ER. Do as naked advantage.

 

Buy power with limitation. (10d6 EB, OAF: 50/25)

Calculate advantage off that. (25 points difference)

Buy off advantage (costs 25 points), but limit it (activation roll: -1): total cost: 12 points + 25 (base cost) -> 37.

You can now either fire your power with the OAF or have an activation roll. Note: This can be mathematically abused, so handle with care.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: temporarily negating limitations

 

Another way of doing it might be to devise a way the character can temporarily remove the limitation, decide how often it will/might occur in game and then simply decrease the value of the limitation accordingly. I think this method would work best for a "removal" that you think will happen fairly often in the game.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: temporarily negating limitations

 

It's also how you simulate "Metamagic" from the d20 system; frex, someone may buy up the ability to cast Silent Spells, but only for X Active Points; so maybe they can cast any first level spell without Incantations. I don't know that the Pushing rules would apply; for my part, I wouldn't allow a Pushed power to remove a Limitation; it only makes the power "more powerful," i.e. adds dice to the effect.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: temporarily negating limitations

 

What Tonio said.

 

But here's another idea, which I'm not necessarily recommending, because it is a bit wierd:

 

Buy an Aid that buys off a specific limitation, rather than boosting the active points of a power. This would primarily work for Limitations that have a "scale" of variants at different values, such as Activation or Increased END. And the Aid would have to be specified at the time it is purchased as to what limitation it applies to.

 

Example:

Archmage's Confidence: 4d6 Aid vs. Activation. The pips on the Aid dice add to the Real Points in the power being Aided for the purpose of buying off (or buying down) the Activation roll (and presumably, any Jammed or Burnout roll as well, unless the GM rules otherwise). Thus making the Aided power more reliable, temporarily, until the Aid wears off.

 

Ramacagh, the Archmage casts this spell on his apprentice, Peter Panic, getting 15 points of effect. Peter has a 12d6 EB (60 Active) spell, with 11- Activation on it, reducing its real cost to 30. The Aid effectively adds to the real points, resulting in a 45 Real-Point power. This would be the equivalent of the 60-Active power with only a -1/2 Limitation, a 14- Activation roll. It's not quite enough to buy the Activation up to 15-. For one turn, Peter can use his EB spell with a 14- chance of success, then 5 points of the Aid fade, leaving 40 effective points in his power, which is still enough for the 14- roll, so he can use it for another whole turn at the same Activation roll, The next turn, it will fade down to 35 points, which would be a 13- Activation Limitation. At the end of that turn, Peter's down to his normal 30-point power, and his usual 11- Activation roll.

 

Just a thought.

[Sean Waters]

Re: temporarily negating limitations

 

Same as you'd do for a Naked Advantage, I'd say.

 

Like, say you have a 12d6 EB, OIF: Ring of Power, costing 40 pts.

Now, you have another "power" that's Buying Off OIF for up to 60 pts of EB, with Activation Roll, 11-. Costing 10pts total (20 pts is the buyoff, the Activation Roll, 11- is a -1 Limitation).

 

So now you have an Energy Blast which you normally need the ring to fire, but you can try to fire it w/o your ring, and succeed on an 11- roll. You could also apply UBO to the buyoff, so you can negate other people's Limitations, too.

 

I was with you right up to the end bit. I can't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to do what you suggest right at the moment, but it is ringing all kinds of alarm bells.

 

I'd probably make do with a limited limitation (really not keen on the over use of naked advantages, and pretty much the same effect and cost):

 

50 point power, (say) -1 limitation, saves you 25 points.

 

11- activation is a -1. Apply that to the saving, and apply the remainder, so instead of saving you 25 points it just saves you 13, total cost 50-13=37.

 

If the activation had been on 14-, the limitation on the limitation would be -1/2, so it would save you just 8 points: (25-(25/1.5))=8 points, for a total cost of 50-8=42 points.

[Sean Waters]

Re: temporarily negating limitations

 

What Tonio said.

 

But here's another idea, which I'm not necessarily recommending, because it is a bit wierd:

 

Buy an Aid that buys off a specific limitation, rather than boosting the active points of a power. This would primarily work for Limitations that have a "scale" of variants at different values, such as Activation or Increased END. And the Aid would have to be specified at the time it is purchased as to what limitation it applies to.

 

Example:

Archmage's Confidence: 4d6 Aid vs. Activation. The pips on the Aid dice add to the Real Points in the power being Aided for the purpose of buying off (or buying down) the Activation roll (and presumably, any Jammed or Burnout roll as well, unless the GM rules otherwise). Thus making the Aided power more reliable, temporarily, until the Aid wears off.

 

Ramacagh, the Archmage casts this spell on his apprentice, Peter Panic, getting 15 points of effect. Peter has a 12d6 EB (60 Active) spell, with 11- Activation on it, reducing its real cost to 30. The Aid effectively adds to the real points, resulting in a 45 Real-Point power. This would be the equivalent of the 60-Active power with only a -1/2 Limitation, a 14- Activation roll. It's not quite enough to buy the Activation up to 15-. For one turn, Peter can use his EB spell with a 14- chance of success, then 5 points of the Aid fade, leaving 40 effective points in his power, which is still enough for the 14- roll, so he can use it for another whole turn at the same Activation roll, The next turn, it will fade down to 35 points, which would be a 13- Activation Limitation. At the end of that turn, Peter's down to his normal 30-point power, and his usual 11- Activation roll.

 

Just a thought.

 

Oh you surely do love your interesting new uses for Aid Perhaps we could also have it grant an advantage at the same time.

 

Or we could use drain to ADD limitations to other people's powers...

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: temporarily negating limitations

 

Oh you surely do love your interesting new uses for Aid Perhaps we could also have it grant an advantage at the same time.

Not at the same time! Aid must be bought for one thing only. And if you pay extra for the Advantage to let it vary between different things, those things have to be closely linked by SFX. I could see an Aid that can either reduce the Increased END Cost Limitation, or add the Reduced END Cost Advantage; but not one that could, say, buy off Focus, and add on AoE.

 

Or we could use drain to ADD limitations to other people's powers...

Sure, why not? We've discussed this before, too. It works quite well. And yes, you have to specify when you buy the Aid, that it puts on a Limitation, rather than reducing active points.

 

Example:

Gremlin - Drain to add Activation roll. Powers become unreliable, but otherwise stay the same.

[Sean Waters]

Re: temporarily negating limitations

 

Not at the same time! Aid must be bought for one thing only. And if you pay extra for the Advantage to let it vary between different things, those things have to be closely linked by SFX. I could see an Aid that can either reduce the Increased END Cost Limitation, or add the Reduced END Cost Advantage; but not one that could, say, buy off Focus, and add on AoE.

 

Sure, why not? We've discussed this before, too. It works quite well. And yes, you have to specify when you buy the Aid, that it puts on a Limitation, rather than reducing active points.

 

Example:

Gremlin - Drain to add Activation roll. Powers become unreliable, but otherwise stay the same.

 

Complete PITA: Drain to add limited power: Power Only Works In Darkness. Powers only work if you can't see what you are doing but otherwise stay the same.

[Sean Waters]

Re: temporarily negating limitations

 

Even better: for flight - power only works while touching the ground. For a 12 point drain you can cripple 50 points of flight.

 

Moreover, unless you limit it to a specific limitation for a specific power, it adds loads of utility: being able to put an activation roll on ANYTHING is incredibly useful, far more so than being able to drain a specific power.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: temporarily negating limitations

 

Even better: for flight - power only works while touching the ground. For a 12 point drain you can cripple 50 points of flight.

Only if the GM is a complete moron.

 

Moreover, unless you limit it to a specific limitation for a specific power, it adds loads of utility: being able to put an activation roll on ANYTHING is incredibly useful, far more so than being able to drain a specific power.

Yes, of course, it should only affect one specific power by default. I guess I didn't make that clear.

[Sean Waters]

Re: temporarily negating limitations

 

Only if the GM is a complete moron.

 

................

 

I resemble that implication!