Desolidification and Teleport Damage

[Sean Waters]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

For the same reason having high STR doesn't let you tie lampposts around people all the time, unless you buy Entangle. You get what you paid for. The Teleport Power says you take damage when you Teleport into stuff, w/o defenses applied. Period.

 

Like Nexus said, having Desolid is a great justification to buy Safe Blind Teleport on your Teleport. But unless you buy it, you don't get it. The reasoning behind it? That's up to you to justify.

 

Along those lines, btw, I'd certainly allow a Power roll to avoid damage, same as for Bricks using their STR to entangle...

 

I let characters with high strength tie lampposts round other characters to 'entangle them. of course they have to be holding them still, have a handy lamp post and take at least a full phase, probably more, to get it right, and they probably have to spend that at, at least, half DCV. You might want a 'STR Power Roll', as lamp posts are generally not THAT flexible. Oh, and it is no range, obviously...If you don't want to let characters do it, then assume the lamp posts are the old style cast iron ones that would shatter rather than bend, as opposed to aluminium ones that are more malleable. Or don;t have lamp posts here...

 

That's completely ad hoc, but I allow it for the same reason that I allow people with high strength to throw objects to damage, without having to buy a seperate focussed EB, and pick up large objects and gain combat bonuses or minor AoEs; it makes perfect sense that you can do it with the ability, and I think (certainly in the case of bending lamp posts) that you can pile enough 'reasonable' limitations on to make buying entangle still an attarctive proposition. I think that, absent a specific rule to the contrary, and always with an eye to game balance, you should probably be generally permissive in play.

 

The important thing to me is that the rule you have should be able to be derived from the rest of the rules: it shouldn't be breaking any chains of logic here unless there is a good reason to do so.

 

Now let me try and relate that tot he current discussion.

 

I mean, teleport is not a sfx, it is a power, a movement power, and desolidicfication is not a sfx either, it is a power. There is no logical reason to assume that you can't use movement powers with desolidification - it wuold be odd if you could.

 

Logically, taking desolidification (and tunnelling) out of the picture, you should not be able to move into solid objects. If you run, swim, leap, swing, glide or fly into a solid object, you extect to hit it and for it to hurt. TP needs a special rule, because, whilst it is obvious that you can't materialise in a rock without either damaging it our yourself, or both, there is no velocity involved with TP, and so no mechanic outside a specific rule, to cope.

 

However, the reason has to be, bearing in mind that neither TP nor desolid involve sfx - so it has to be a 'rule' decision rather than a game logic one, that you can't move into a solid object.

 

The disconnect here is that, if yuo are desolid, the place you are materialising is NOT a solid object TO THE CHARACTER, any more than it would be if they used some other mode of movement.

 

Now I take the point about this being a good reason to buy 'safe teleoprt', but that doesn't work for me for this reason. Say I want to build a chinese ghost, which has a desolidification power and whose only mode of movement is teleportation: they can't pass through thick walls?

 

What if I define my desolidification as moving me to another plane of existence, one where the same objects simply are not present? When I teleport there, I'm not in a solid object, but in THIS plane I appear to be.

 

How would I build that with existing mechanics?

 

The ruling is a bad one to my mind because it doesn't follow the structure fo the rest of the game, and it limits concepts by making some combinations simply not work. It doesn't even, to me, have the saving grace of being there for game balance as I cannot see any reason it would cause any problems mechanically, or in-game.

 

Now it may well be the answer is there for a reason I simply haven't considered, and I understand why Steve doesn't discuss his answers, or 'game philosophy' but I really wish he would sometimes. In the absence of that, though, can anyone suggest a reason why we might need this ruling?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

This is true of a lot of superabilities. How can you see if you're invisible? Either the light bounces off your eyes' date=' so they should be visible, or it doesn't, so you should be blind.[/quote']

 

 

...unless you are affecting people's minds so they simply don't see you

[Sean Waters]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

From a system logic standpoint I understand the ruling, it was my gut reaction when it came up. I can also see the narrative logic" side. So it does come to a gm's call like allot of things in Hero where the line is drawn.

 

I agree it would be a power Tricks roll for a couple of times and require Safe Blind Teleport if wanted to do it constantly.

 

Safe Blind Teleport will never let you teleport into an object that is solid though, so even with that, it can't built, so I'm missing the system logic connection. The teleport damage ruling must surely be referring to an object that is solid IN RELATION to the teleporting character?

[nexus]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

I think the reasoning behind it is pretty clear. You don't get what you don't pay for. The ability to freely teleport without worrying about solid objects is part of Safe Blind Teleport, not Desolidification. It's a game issue, not a simulation issue. Technically if you want to regularly wrap people up in lamposts and other Strength tricks constantly, you do have to buy an entangle (The Big Wrap Up) or a Eb/ranged attack to regularly hurl large objects. And you have to get some kind of HTH attack with a focus if you want hitting someone with a girder to do more damage than hitting someone with your fists. Various games enforce this to different levels.

 

It all comes down to where the GM chooses to draw the line between Simulation and game balance, it's personal choice. (I remember getting in a huge debate with someone over the hitting someone with an object should do more damage thing and how it would destroy all game balance) Going with the internal logic of Hero, Steve Long's call seem correct. If it's acceptable in an individual game masters campaign is a personal choice.

[nexus]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

Safe Blind Teleport will never let you teleport into an object that is solid though' date=' so even with that, it can't built, so I'm missing the system logic connection. The teleport damage ruling must surely be referring to an object that is solid IN RELATION to the teleporting character?[/quote']

 

Safe Blind Teleport will prevent you from taking damage from teleporting into an object. That you are inside the object instead of shunting to the nearest safe location is a small enough difference for me that it fits under "Special Effects" if the character also has Desolidification. System logic is that you don't get what you don't pay for. If you want to Teleport without worrying about objects in the way, get Safe Blind Teleport. It also prevents weird constructs like Desol Only to prevent Teleport damage -2 or higher.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

Safe Blind Teleport will prevent you from taking damage from teleporting into an object. That you are inside the object instead of shunting to the nearest safe location is a small enough difference for me that it fits under "Special Effects" if the character also has Desolidification. System logic is that you don't get what you don't pay for. If you want to Teleport without worrying about objects in the way' date=' get Safe Blind Teleport. It also prevents weird constructs like Desol Only to prevent Teleport damage -2 or higher.[/quote']

 

That's changing a rule to fit in with a ruling.

 

A good ruling would cause minimum change in the rest of the system.

 

You are paying 40 points for desolid not to have to worry about solid objects.

 

What is wrong with desol (only to prevent TP damage)? You don't fully materialise inside a solid object, so you don't take damage It is different from safe blind TP, so it gives more options and so more ability to model exact concept. You are still paying for it (and I probably wouldn't allow -2 if you had TP as a power).

[nexus]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

I'll say that both appear to interpreting the system in a valid way to me; it just depends on what you find more "logical". Neither is particularly game breaking. That's my opinion, anyway.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

Well' date=' canonically, Steve Long says Desolidification provides no protection against the damage from Teleporting into a solid object.[/quote']

 

That's okay, eventually we'll have a ruling that Teleport doesn't actually move you, so you won't have to worry about it anyways.

[nexus]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

That's okay' date=' eventually we'll have a ruling that Teleport doesn't actually move you, so you won't have to worry about it anyways. [/quote']

 

Ouch!

[Tonio]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

That's okay' date=' eventually we'll have a ruling that Teleport doesn't actually move you, so you won't have to worry about it anyways. [/quote']

 

XMD: To a Dimension where I'm 10" away from where I currently am.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

XMD: To a Dimension where I'm 10" away from where I currently am.

 

Well, 10" AND a dimension away...

[nexus]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

Well' date=' 10" AND a dimension away...[/quote']

 

A new dimension, a better one...with blackjack and hookers!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

A new dimension' date=' a better one...with blackjack and hookers![/quote']

 

Damn, you always get the good dimensions. Mine just has black sacks and cookers.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

Damn' date=' you always get the good dimensions. Mine just has black sacks and cookers.[/quote']I must have slipped into the Andy Capp dimension... I've got black slacks and snooker.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

Desolidification and Safe Blind Teleport are not the same thing.

 

Let's say you're in a cell 30 hexes below ground, and you have 16" of Teleport. You attempt to teleport straight up (for whatever reason, you can't noncombat or push or anything).

 

If he has Safe Blind Teleport, he will appear on the surface. It's the closest safe area he can materialize in (14" to the surface, 16" to the cell).

 

If he has Desolidification, he'll teleport to the exact space 16" above the cell, and stay there, not bounce to another location, because where he is qualifies as a safe location.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

That's an interesting point: as defined, SBT allows you to travel nearly twice your normal teleport distance in the right circumstances. Blimey. Being a skinflint, I'd probably rule you have to appear INSIDE your move range, so, in the described example, with SBT, you would not move, but that is not what the rule requires as such.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

...unless you are affecting people's minds so they simply don't see you

 

That's Mind Control, one command, AoE, no range, telepathic, target does not know he was mind controlled. Don't overcomplicate the issue

[Ocelot]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

One other thought...

 

I'd rule that the Desolid has to be "on" at time of teleport to protect against damage.

[nexus]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

Maybe a decent compromise would be to create a +1/2 version of Safe Blind Teleport that allows the user to chose to if they want return to their start point, go to the nearest "safe" hex or appear "inside" matter (but be effectively blind and paralyzed unless they have some means to avoid this (such as...Desolidificaton)

[Alibear]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

I'd allow it as a one off but if a player seemed to want to use it often or abuse it I'd ask him to pay for Safe Blind Teleport. Still, If I play Hero for another 50 years I doubt if it'll come up more than once.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

I think that my major objection to this ruling is that it is not the obvious consequence. Maybe I'm in a minority here, but I'd have thought that the 'obvious' consequence of TPing into a solid whilst you are desolid would be that you are fine - you paid for desolid, which means that you don't take damage from being in, or passing through solid objects. You are not getting a freebee or a handwave. You'd only know different if you had read the QnA.

 

That is a problem to me because I like rules to be, as much as possible, 'deriveable' from basic principles, and it also means that a perfectly honest build is not going to do what is expected of it (or one that has been doing that for years suddenly can't).

 

Anyway, I don't think I can put it another way. If that's the rule, that's the rule, and the good thing about it being in the QnA is that I don't have to mess up the rule book crossing it out

[Sean Waters]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

I should also say that the ruling smacks to me a little of sfxism. Your powers might be defined thus: I become desolid by partially transitioning to an alternate dimension. The alternate dimension is comletely empty, but has weird topographic rules - if you move there, you move in the 'real world' but it takes no effective time. The character buys desolid and teleport equal to their running.

 

So I become desolid and move into a solid, I'm effectively teleoprting there, still desolid. There's no mechanical difference between beceoming desolid and walking or teleporting into a solid. In fact, if you buy your teleport as an alternate mode of movement to running, or with the 'must cross intervening space' limtiation, it makes even less sense. To me, anyway.

 

I can see how TP sfx might cause you problems if you get up a gravitational field or somesuch and that interacts with the gravitational field of the matter you TP into, but mechanically, I see no need for the rule, I see no balance issues and I see no need therefore to confound expectations.

 

Unless, as I say, my expectations are not those of the majority.

[Alibear]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

Has this ever came up for you in game?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

I think that my major objection to this ruling is that it is not the obvious consequence. Maybe I'm in a minority here, but I'd have thought that the 'obvious' consequence of TPing into a solid whilst you are desolid would be that you are fine - you paid for desolid, which means that you don't take damage from being in, or passing through solid objects. You are not getting a freebee or a handwave. You'd only know different if you had read the QnA.

 

That is a problem to me because I like rules to be, as much as possible, 'deriveable' from basic principles, and it also means that a perfectly honest build is not going to do what is expected of it (or one that has been doing that for years suddenly can't).

 

Anyway, I don't think I can put it another way. If that's the rule, that's the rule, and the good thing about it being in the QnA is that I don't have to mess up the rule book crossing it out

 

Has this ever came up for you in game?

 

First off, I agree with Alibear - this will not be common. With that in mind, I think any resolution the GM considers balanced will work.

 

I can also see the case for both sides of the argument. "You are desolid, so you are not injured from a blind teleport materializing you, still desolid, inside solid rock." This makes sense, but as some have noted, it very much depends on the SFX of the Desolid, and probably of the Teleport as well.

 

"This is Hero - you get what you pay for. If the SFX of your Teleport and Desolid suggest that you should be safe from damage if a blind teleport materializes you in a solid object." This also makes sense, supporting Steve's ruling. Once we start allowing free effects based on logic, it's tough to know when to stop. Can I open a lock by shutting off my Desolid while holding a Desolid object in the lock? Can I destroy an enemy using the same tactic with an object held in his head? Both are logical ramifications of Desolid.

 

But so is either falling to the center of the earth (gravity affecting you) or spinning off into space as the earth moves on (gravity doesn't affect you). And how can you breath with Desolid lungs? The air still has mass.

 

While it would be ideal for the rules to state how Teleport and Desolid interact, there are a lot of other things the rules could state - and the book is already quite large. After a while, we start to look like a collectible card game - "Combining these two cards does this, and countering with this card does that" and on and on and on.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

Has this ever came up for you in game?

 

No, it hasn't, but then (although I've designed a couple of villains who could do it) we've never had a PC or an NPC with the summon power either. Hard to believe, I know. The point here is one of principle: I'd rather have a game that is as logically structured as possible.