Lets talk about Multiforms, true forms focus

[JmOz]

So I am reading my christmas present a (They tell me it is damaged) copy of Ultimate Metamorph, and one thing I was hoping for is not in the book, a detailed conversation about Multiform and true forms

 

So I figured we could do it ourselves, so what is YOUR thinking on true forms for multiforms

[ghost-angel]

Re: Lets talk about Multiforms, true forms focus

 

The True Form pays for the multi-form... what's the actual topic?

[JmOz]

Re: Lets talk about Multiforms, true forms focus

 

The True Form pays for the multi-form... what's the actual topic?

 

How do you decide which is the "True Form"

 

Lets take The Hulk

 

Well as the title character a good argument can be made that big green is the true form, not the smallest point of being one of point balance, and the fact that in a champions game he will be spending most of his "on screen" time in this form

 

On the other hand he was born Robert Bruce Banner, so maybe nerd boyy should be considered the true form, from a logic PoV this makes sense

[JmOz]

Re: Lets talk about Multiforms, true forms focus

 

BTW: According to Darren Banner is a 100 point multiform on the hulk with NCC, only changable by accidental change

[ghost-angel]

Re: Lets talk about Multiforms, true forms focus

 

That's going to be decided on a character by character basis. There's no rule, formula, or line that will tell you instantly.

[JmOz]

Re: Lets talk about Multiforms, true forms focus

 

That's going to be decided on a character by character basis. There's no rule' date=' formula, or line that will tell you instantly.[/quote']

 

true, however just saying there is no rule or formula for it is not helpful in deciding, thus this thread. My idea was by hearing how others decided we could come up with some (Admitingly unofficial and loose) guidelines for decideing.

 

Personaly for me the idea of how much "screen Time" each form will get is a big part of it for me. If the form is the normal form the story will center on then it is probably the "true form". Using the Hulk as an example again. In most team books he is on it would be the Hulk, but in the old TV series David (because Bruce sounds Gay) Banner would be.

 

So to get this on topic "How would you decide to do it", or phrased differently what aspects of the character do you look at?

[Fireleaper]

Re: Lets talk about Multiforms, true forms focus

 

I tend to look at it from a theme/concept point. Can the Hulk turn into Bruce Banner or can Bruce Banner turn into the Hulk?

 

First I don't read comics but I recall that people are always saying that Bruce Banner turns into the Hulk. So the concept here is that you have a brilliant scientist who when angry turns into a monster.

 

Now a quick glance at multiform says that the true form is based on conception and I can think of a good reason to have the true form as Doc Banner even though he is the least point form - Suppress/Dispel/Drain/Transfer Multiform - suddenly in the middle of a combat the big green monster becomes a skinny geek and looking a bit worried as you level your railgun at his head and say "don't move".

[ghost-angel]

Re: Lets talk about Multiforms, true forms focus

 

I almost always go by my idea of the characters concept.

 

Only once did I go by which of the two forms would better fit into the games Base Points.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Lets talk about Multiforms, true forms focus

 

Which form is the real character? Despite the fact the Werewolf form will likely see the most screen time, the true form is still the Human inflicted with Lycanthropy. Similarly, Banner is the Hulk's true form.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Lets talk about Multiforms, true forms focus

 

I'm with the screen time aspect. What is the form in which much of the gameplay will take place.

 

In some games (and with some players) you might find that Bruce Banner is the form that gets the play and the utility. In that game I would probably go for Bruce Banner as the true form, in a more combat oriented game (player) then the Hulk form would be the true form.

 

I think that demonstrates for me that the context of the game and the player would have the deciding say in this - it is impossible for me to do it on a character by character basis.

 

 

Doc

[Sundansyr]

Re: Lets talk about Multiforms, true forms focus

 

Speaking of 'Multiform', which appears to be a rather common way of creating a Hero and their non-heroic alter ego in some of my campaigns.

 

Each form gets different disads, correct?

 

For example:

The Hero has a 150+100 heroic-ID, and a 50 pt Normal Human multiform, would need to have a similar ratio for the human form's disads (30+20 or somesuch), correct?

Would it be logical for the Hero to have 'Secret ID' as a disad? Or 'Only in Hero ID' for any of their powers (I disallowed this)?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Lets talk about Multiforms, true forms focus

 

The Alternate Forms are built on the same points as the Base/True Form unless the GM deems otherwise.

 

In your example both are built on 150+100.

[Checkmate]

Re: Lets talk about Multiforms, true forms focus

 

Speaking of 'Multiform', which appears to be a rather common way of creating a Hero and their non-heroic alter ego in some of my campaigns.

 

Each form gets different disads, correct?

 

For example:

The Hero has a 150+100 heroic-ID, and a 50 pt Normal Human multiform, would need to have a similar ratio for the human form's disads (30+20 or somesuch), correct?

Would it be logical for the Hero to have 'Secret ID' as a disad? Or 'Only in Hero ID' for any of their powers (I disallowed this)?

Both characters use the same "rules" if the GM says "In my campaign characters will be 200 base with 150, both forms have to use those points.

 

Each form does get its own set of disads.

 

As far as the Only in Secret ID, it depends. If the player is saying that his multiform is his Hero ID and he bought all his powers in that multiform OIHID, then I would agree that isn't right. They're already getting a cost savings with the Multiform. There are ways that might make sense to combine a Multiform with OIHID, but generally I'd say no.

 

As far as the original post: I've always been a fan of how 4th ed treated Multiform: Most expensive form pays for Multiform.

[JmOz]

Re: Lets talk about Multiforms, true forms focus

 

I keep thinking of the follower rules, thinking that converting them for the Multiform rules might be a good idea, so the base form can be any form, but once you get past what the base form has in points it is a 1:1 instead of 1:5

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Lets talk about Multiforms, true forms focus

 

I keep thinking of the follower rules' date=' thinking that converting them for the Multiform rules might be a good idea, so the base form can be any form, but once you get past what the base form has in points it is a 1:1 instead of 1:5[/quote']

 

This depends on what you anticipate using Multiform for. Using this for Banner/Hulk, we get 150 point Banner spending his 200 remaining points on a 480 point Multiform, still well above the campaign point levels, just not as much so. The issue has been reduced, but not resolved. Hulk is still more powerful than his teammates.

 

Meanwhile, over in Fantasy Hero, there's no practical way that 75 + 75 point Faerie Sorceress can build her DragonForm spell, which might otherwise be a perfectly acceptable spell (just like Summoning a powerful being from another place - the only other power which allows 5:1 if you go beyond your own points, unless I misrecall).

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Lets talk about Multiforms, true forms focus

 

My thought on multiform with hugely inflated point costs was to impose an END cost on points above the base form to maintain the inflated form. That means you get a bonus on your team-mates but that comes at teh cost of exhaustion - and there should be some exhaustion that feeds back to the original form so that if you are forced out of your expensive form your original form is in bad shape due to the exertion as well.

 

 

Doc

[OddHat]

Re: Lets talk about Multiforms, true forms focus

 

I'd generally designate Bruce Banner, Billy Batson, or Hayata as the True Forms, with the Hulk, Captain Marvel, or Ultraman as the forms they turn into. That said, in one of my campaigns, Bruce, Billy, or Hayata is likely to be getting more screen time than their alter-egos.

 

My reasoning for this is theme/concept based (keeping point balance separate for now) as I see it. Bruce's story is of a man who turns into a monster. Billy's story is of a little boy who can call on his idealized adult self / older brother / father figure to save the day. Hayata's story is of a heroic man who, when facing threats he can't deal with himself, can call on a god-like alien to step in and protect the world. Sure, there are other ways to tell their stories, but those are the approaches I'd usually take.

 

From a fairness / point balance perspective, doing things the other way around might make more sense. In any case, the combination Banner-Hulk / Billy-Captain / Hayata-Ultra build would have to be looked at in a campaign and compared to other characters both in the team and in the setting before I'd give it approval.

 

Sure, it may be legal to build a character with 128 forms, each min-maxed for specific situations, but outside of a solo campaign or some sort of intentional munchkin fest it would be grossly unfair to the other players.

[Tech]

Re: Lets talk about Multiforms, true forms focus

 

If someone in my campaign has one alternate form, they don't get Multiform. They take all their stats/powers/skills in the alternate form with the disadvantage:

 

-1/4 Only works in Hero identity

 

At least in my thinking, even the name of the power Multiform suggests more than 1 form.

[Tech]

Re: Lets talk about Multiforms, true forms focus

 

Multiform is still broken in my opinion. Yes, I have the Ultimate Metamorph and it does nothing to resolve the brokeness of the power. Yes, it does work to take care of the Beast Boy power with 100+ forms but for the 2 or 3 extra form people, not so much.

 

Regardless of differing opinions on whether it's broken or not, one question remains: with Multiform being so cheap, what does the base form do after reaching 100, 200, 300, 400, etc., experience points from adventuring?

[OddHat]

Re: Lets talk about Multiforms, true forms focus

 

If someone in my campaign has one alternate form, they don't get Multiform. They take all their stats/powers/skills in the alternate form with the disadvantage:

 

-1/4 Only works in Hero identity

 

At least in my thinking, even the name of the power Multiform suggests more than 1 form.

 

Fair enough, and I don't allow many PC multiformers myself (only one I can think of right now is the Beast Boy Homage in my Young Titans convention game). Still, the utility Multiform offers over Only in Hero ID from the GMs point of view is that it allows the changing of disads by form without any additional tweaking. Sure, there are other ways to do that (adjusting frequency or custom adders being the most obvious); still, it's quick and easy, and gives the PC a solid reason to stay in Form A as opposed to switching into Form B.

 

Just adjust the disad values for each form to reflect the reduced frequency for disads that don't apply when the character changes, and you've got a pretty solid model of a character who's a giant green berserker in Form A and a very ordinary looking, cowardly nebbish in Form B.

 

Regardless of differing opinions on whether it's broken or not, one question remains: with Multiform being so cheap, what does the base form do after reaching 100, 200, 300, 400, etc., experience points from adventuring?

Same thing any other PC does with 100s of XP; he spends them in accordance to what the GM allows. The GM has to be careful to prevent the character from growing unbalanced, but that's always part of the GMs job.

[JmOz]

Re: Lets talk about Multiforms, true forms focus

 

Fair enough, and I don't allow many PC multiformers myself (only one I can think of right now is the Beast Boy Homage in my Young Titans convention game). Still, the utility Multiform offers over Only in Hero ID from the GMs point of view is that it allows the changing of disads by form without any additional tweaking. Sure, there are other ways to do that (adjusting frequency or custom adders being the most obvious); still, it's quick and easy, and gives the PC a solid reason to stay in Form A as opposed to switching into Form B.

 

Just adjust the disad values for each form to reflect the reduced frequency for disads that don't apply when the character changes, and you've got a pretty solid model of a character who's a giant green berserker in Form A and a very ordinary looking, cowardly nebbish in Form B.

 

 

Same thing any other PC does with 100s of XP; he spends them in accordance to what the GM allows. The GM has to be careful to prevent the character from growing unbalanced, but that's always part of the GMs job.

 

But back to the idea of concept, vs xp gain

 

A character who has the normal form as base is either going to either become a lot more super (Which is not in concept), not get to spend his xp (which is not fair to the player IMO), or pump it all into Multiform (Which will make him more powerful, not fair to the other players(

[OddHat]

Re: Lets talk about Multiforms, true forms focus

 

But back to the idea of concept, vs xp gain

 

A character who has the normal form as base is either going to either become a lot more super (Which is not in concept), not get to spend his xp (which is not fair to the player IMO), or pump it all into Multiform (Which will make him more powerful, not fair to the other players(

 

Again, the GM has the tools to take care of this.

 

You're assuming the Normal form is the base. It doesn't have to be. Darren's Hulk that multiforms into Banner is one example.

 

However, if we do take the "non-Super" form as the base, the Multiform character can still buy skills and perks, gadgets (in the case of a Banner-Homage style scientist), and additional forms, as well as buying up Stats or buying down disads; all of which he should be doing within concept. So, Banner-Homage starts out poor, weak, sickly, and bullied, and after some XP gain ends up stronger and healthier, maybe with some minor martial arts (enough to surprise a street thug or agent), well connected and well respected, and with a nice gadget pool. If the Hulk-Homage wants to share any of this, the Banner-Homage has to sink the XP into increasing the point total of the Hulk-Homage as well. Maybe he even spends points on a nice base, or on a few GM approved alternate Hulk-Homage forms (Smart Hulk Homage, Mindless Mystic Hulk Homage, etc).

 

So, yes, it can be an issue. However, it's not that tricky an issue to deal with one way or another.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Lets talk about Multiforms, true forms focus

 

If someone in my campaign has one alternate form, they don't get Multiform. They take all their stats/powers/skills in the alternate form with the disadvantage:

 

-1/4 Only works in Hero identity

 

At least in my thinking, even the name of the power Multiform suggests more than 1 form.

 

I use Multiform for when an Alternate Form is radically different, usually personality wise.

 

But I have one character whose second form is an Unkindness Of Ravens - built on less points than the character, and Multiform was definitely the easiest and most logical way to go.

 

As for XP... Oddhat answered it - GM Control.

 

The GM controls the game, not the System. I should just sig line it: Hero System Is Not Your Baby Sitter.

[JmOz]

Re: Lets talk about Multiforms, true forms focus

 

I use Multiform for when an Alternate Form is radically different, usually personality wise.

 

But I have one character whose second form is an Unkindness Of Ravens - built on less points than the character, and Multiform was definitely the easiest and most logical way to go.

 

As for XP... Oddhat answered it - GM Control.

 

The GM controls the game, not the System. I should just sig line it: Hero System Is Not Your Baby Sitter.

 

I thought it was a murder

[ghost-angel]

Re: Lets talk about Multiforms, true forms focus

 

Murder Of Crows.

Unkindness Of Ravens.

 

If you'd like I'll post the entire Corvid breakdown, it's interesting.