Magic Systems

[Arzash]

Hey there all,

I am currently working on converting the Privateer Press' Iron Kingdoms setting to FH and thought I would look to yall for thoughts and ideas. about the magic systems. Is it unbalancing if magic is bought in different ways depending on the type of magic you use? The Iron Kingdoms has several different types magic and I want to keep them as unique and distinct as possible but at the same time I don't want one type of magic be the default choice or be "better".

 

The magic has 2 basic spheres (divine and arcane) and 1 that is kind of an enhancer (focus/fury) that is usable with the other 2.

 

Divine magic is simply the magic granted by your diety of choice and I am thinking of having the individual spells bought through various elemental controls with the required limitations of OAF (holy symbol), requires a faith roll, and only when serving the gods purposes.

 

Arcane magic is subdivided into various fields mostly defined by how you learned to harness it. Wizardry, which is largely taught by Universities or by studying spell books I thought I would use some form of Vanician Magic with a VPP and a spell book. Possibly cribbing from Killer Shrikes wonderfull site.

 

Sorcery is more of an untrained wielder of arcane magic and largely feared by the general public as many of their spells can be dangerous to the caster or those around them. Sorcerer's tend to just grab magic and attempt to shape it to what ever purpose they need at the moment and many have mental blocks as to what they can do with the magic. For them I was thinking of a VPP that was more like a cosmic power pool but requiring all spells to have huge side effects if things go wrong.

 

There are also gun mages (a type of sorcerer that channels magic through a pistol or rifle), and Arcane Mechanics who creat mechanical devices that store and channel magic into different effects, basically the artificers/enchanters. Their items are more technological than magic and are less effecient than true magic items but safer to create. (still working on developing these). These would probably be buying their spells/schematics each individually.

 

The final type of magic is Focus/Fury magic. This rare ability is developed by those rare individuals that can develop a telepathic bond with warjacks (Focus) or warbeasts (Fury) and is used mostly to buff existing spells or abilities, take extra attacks, do more damage, etc.

 

I hope this wasn't to long and thanks for yalls thoughts.

 

Arzash

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Magic Systems

 

http://www.killershrike.com

 

After that, I did all the d20 spells for Clerics/Wizards with extensive notes on my mechanics up to 5th Level (which is all I wanted to do, but I'm doing Druid now for reasons I can't wholly explain). Also, get Ultimate Energy Projector. And Fantasy HERO. After that... eh, I got nothin'. Brain melty.

 

And, if you don't have it, you must purchase HeroDesigner v3, or we revoke any membership priviliges you may or may not have had, and over which I may or MAY NOT have any authority whatsoever. But seriously. HeroDesigner. It should be a requirement to play the game.

[Arzash]

Re: Magic Systems

 

Yeah, I love killer shrikes site. Have created hot links to various sections for later reading. I was just wondering if haveing one magic an Elemental control, 2 based on a VPP, one maybe a multipower, etc. would make one magic type a must have over the others.

 

Also, was looking over some of Killer Shrikes rune magic and I think I may adapt it for the Arcane Mechanika. I need to read it more fully. Although if I can come up with some way to make it component based so the items could be disassebled and remade into other things that would be cool but that could be just left as an FX to.

 

I do have Hero designer, its very cool. I have turakian age, FH on pdf (and just ordered the hardbound) spell compendium, monsters and mauraders, etc. I will have to look into tracking down the energy projector. Problem is that they are all recent purchases and the Big Encyclopedia that is the main rules is taking allot by itself to wade through.

 

Arzash

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Magic Systems

 

Yeah, I love killer shrikes site. Have created hot links to various sections for later reading. I was just wondering if haveing one magic an Elemental control, 2 based on a VPP, one maybe a multipower, etc. would make one magic type a must have over the others.

 

Also, was looking over some of Killer Shrikes rune magic and I think I may adapt it for the Arcane Mechanika. I need to read it more fully. Although if I can come up with some way to make it component based so the items could be disassebled and remade into other things that would be cool but that could be just left as an FX to.

 

I do have Hero designer, its very cool. I have turakian age, FH on pdf (and just ordered the hardbound) spell compendium, monsters and mauraders, etc. I will have to look into tracking down the energy projector. Problem is that they are all recent purchases and the Big Encyclopedia that is the main rules is taking allot by itself to wade through.

 

Arzash

 

Well, in theory, everything is internally balanced in the system, but in this instance (magic system design) I have to bow to KS's expertise. While I can rattle on about how "I" do things, combinations and mechanical comparisons are really smack in his wheelhouse. He'll be along shortly. Say his name three times and he magically appears.

 

KillerShrikeKillerShrikeKillerShrike!!

 

Watch. Never fails.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Magic Systems

 

. . . Or you could try PM him?

[Bygoneyrs]

Re: Magic Systems

 

Thia your simply AWESOME!!!

 

The spells work is great!!!

 

I am thinking about using a simple system that I have always used in my own

Fantasy campaign, and just tailor it for Hero's System.

 

Simply in my world a magic-user is a person that has the gift of use and access

to manipulate Mana Points. Thus a spellcaster creates a Power Pool (Mana Battery)

inwhich each spell has a Mana costs in Mana Pts , and inwhich this pool is their

daily source of Mana Pts inwhich to draw on and cast their spells from. Now spells

could cost different amounts of Mana Pts, depending on what type of casting the

player elected to take. They could be a pure Mana User, a Mana Pts/ Focus user,

or a Mana Pts/ Spell components user. Also the spell caster must also "buy" their

circle"aka..level" level of use. Coming out of D&D v3.5 d20 campaigning for 32+ yrs

with a gaming group also liking that style of D&Dish magic system. So to continue

the player purchases the circle/level usage with first circle being a freebie/given

as part of their package.

 

Now as to gaining spells, the player gets (8) total spells to start, and gets (2) as

given, and (2) depending on their master, and (4) in which they get to choose.

Also if someone purchases the second circle/level of usage, I allow them to choose

(1) 2nd circle/level spell.

 

As to cost for casting spells using the different casting styles:

...............Pure........|.........Mana.........|.........Mana.............|

...............Mana.......|.........Focus........|.........Components....|

 

1st 4 2 1

2nd 6 3 2

3rd 8 4 3

4th 10 5 4

5th 12 6 5

6th 14 7 6

 

Note that as players gain Exps Pts, they can add them to their Power Pool for Magic,

or buy magic circles/levels, or purchase skills and etc. Now gaining spells is done by

a player obtaining a copy of a spell and making check to learn a spell.

 

These is more details of the system but that is the basics of it anyway! It is for my

pro D&Dish players that like that style of system mechanics and isn't for everyone,

and I understand that.

 

Penn

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic Systems

 

You can balance radically different Magic Systems against each other. For instance _all_ of the magic systems on my FH website were usable in my San'Dora campaign, based upon culture / region / and occasionally time period.

 

 

However, it takes a deft hand and a multifaceted consideration of what "balance" really is in your estimation.

 

 

Control Factors and the "Eyeball" test are the best tools I know of to accomplish this. I talk about Control Factors and trying to load balance Magic Systems in depth (multiple articles) here: Magic System Design

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Magic Systems

 

Thia your simply AWESOME!!!

 

The spells work is great!!!

 

Ah... I take it you found my magic threads, then? I'm glad you like them. I have more work to do on it, it's a side project, but I enjoyed putting them together. Like I said, I'm going to hunker down and do a UEP conversion of some of it later on.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic Systems

 

This tidbit from the Balance Concepts might help with your EC vs VPP conundrum:

 

NARROW BUT WELL ROUNDED CAN TRUMP BROAD BUT EXPENSIVE

 

* A Magic System that is inexpensive will have practitioners that are overall more well rounded and thus subjectively play out "more powerful" than a system that is objectively superior in terms of Active Points, effect, or breadth of abilities but greater cost.

 

Take two different systems, one VPP based and the other EC based.

 

The practitioner of the VPP System has the capacity to use a broad range of highly specific finely-combed abilities, but their VPP requires constant pumping of Character Points to grow; and to increase his overall Active Point limit with one ability he has to expand the entire VPP.

The EC based practitioner starts the game with an Attack ability, a Defense ability, and a Movement ability in their EC; overall their abilities cost less than the VPP based Characters, and with their extra points they buy another point of SPEED, some Skills, and a couple of 2 point OCV Levels with their Attack ability.

 

While the VPP based practitioner is objectively the better Magic User of the two, the EC based practitioner might be the more effective character in real terms.

[Bygoneyrs]

Re: Magic Systems

 

It also depends on what a campaigns power points are starting at. I am thinking about

doing 150 pts with up to 75 disadvantage pts for my Fantasy Hero campain. I still need

to relook at this but, I am still designing things yet.

 

Penn

[Markdoc]

Re: Magic Systems

 

I'd add my voice to "yeah, you can use multiple magic systems in one game and have them balance." In my current FH game, I have three systems.

 

One of them is temple magic, using a VPP: it gives access to a broad range of effects, but none of them can be hugely powerful unless you are a kickass mage - and you have to spend a fair amount of time and some XP helping out the temple if you want access to the best spells. The two dedicated spellcasters in the party have used this system and a third PC, who was primarily a sort of fighter/ranger is now learning it.

 

The second type is essentially "folk magic" - what are called Gifts. These are bought straight up, though with some limitations that help lower the price. Of those people with gifts, few have more than 1-3, but since they're bought straight up, price balance isn't an issue. Lots of people have just 1 - but that means it can be really powerful. Nearly half the party has a gift (including one quite powerful one) and one of them has two.

 

The third kind (cult magic) uses a multipower. It lets you get the most bang for the buck, but like the magic system in the Valdorian age, can accrue a magical debt when used, which can lead to nasty side effects. That makes it potentially both flexible and powerful - but also dangerous to use. So far, one player has shown interest in this system, but no PCs are using it as yet.

 

cheers, Mark

[Arzash]

Re: Magic Systems

 

Thanks for all the great replies. Will definitely be poking around some more. It looks like most of the players are leaning something from one of the churches so I can concentrate on the those first and stat out the rest as needed for vill's and antagonists.

 

Arzash

[mayapuppies]

Re: Magic Systems

 

As it stands I have four magic systems in my campaign world, a VPP, an EC, an MP and straight buy. Originally in the party there was only the EC, but now there is all but the VPP. I'm looking forward to seeing how they balance out with each other.

 

But personally I think it should be more about the flavor you're trying to get across, but I live in my own pretty little world where powergamers don't exist. ahehehe

[Arzash]

Re: Magic Systems

 

yeah, powergamers. My group is kind of powergamery in a my character must do what i want and be as effecient as possible. In my first attempt at FH using Turakian age I had a player want to be a blind seer. He seemed somewhat put off by the fact that it cost him more points to offset being blind using divination than it did for the blind disadvantage And then wanted a divination spell that showed people their future death that would harm them. I eventually let him use an Ego blast to represent it but he found that pricey as well. At the time I hadn't seen the entry in TA that said to dived spells by 3 so that might have helped him a bit

Arzash

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Magic Systems

 

At the time I hadn't seen the entry in TA that said to dived spells by 3 so that might have helped him a bit

 

Remember, that isn't a hard & fast rule; it was created by Steve as basically a "power framework" for magic without actually doing the whole "power framework" thing. A lot of hard-cores (myself included) don't like it (no offense to Steve, natch) because we find that properly structured conventional designs cover what we want just fine. However, on the flip side of that argument, KS's Vancian system allows 3xReal in a VPP slot system, and my own math came up with 2xReal to achieve a similar effect. I think for my part, I just found it too efficient, although KS's math suggests (I haven't seen it in two years, mind) that it's roughly equivalent and doesn't break much, but I may be remembering it entirely inaccurately.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic Systems

 

Well, the main difference between just dividing all real costs by 3 and allowing a divisor inside of a VPP is that in a VPP the characters are still paying for the Pool and Control Cost. Also, my system that allows the divisor inside of a VPP (Vancian) also has a high-cost selection of skills that go along with making the total cost of ownership competitive for the effect.

 

I do not like the Turakian Age /3 method. Ive gone on at length about why in other threads, and I don't want to see this thread turn into yet another instance of that stale old argument so I wont repeat my reasons here.

 

However, speaking objectively, whether I like /3 or not, if you decide to use it don't bother including a magic system based on EC in your world because /3 completely cuts the throat of the EC cost saving, on purely mathematical terms.

[Lucius]

Re: Magic Systems

 

But seriously. HeroDesigner. It should be a requirement to play the game.

 

 

Statements like this bug me.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is more tolerant.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Magic Systems

 

Statements like this bug me.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is more tolerant.

 

I'm comfortable with that. I've found it indispensable for large projects. You can get away without it, but for extended character design and mechanics, you can't live without it.