Martial Art: Tricking

[fredrik_nilsson]

Re: Martial Art: Tricking

 

Might be an actual martial arts and would get you killed in a real fight but you have to respect the athleticism and it certainly looks cool' date=' IMO.[/quote']

I assume that the flashiest moves wouldn't be used in a real combat, just as it doesn't in other styles.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Re: Martial Art: Tricking

 

GURPS has skills divided as the list below. How could you convert that to the Hero System?

 

• Martial Art: The same as the default Hero System approach
  
• Combat Art (Martial Art): Virtually martial art tricking and advanced katas
  
• Combat Sport (Martial Art): Basically STUN only combat

[nexus]

Re: Martial Art: Tricking

 

I assume that the flashiest moves wouldn't be used in a real combat' date=' just as it doesn't in other styles.[/quote']

 

AFIACT and judging from other comments here. "Tricking" isn't meant for actual fights in real life but that's not really important in Hero.

[nexus]

Re: Martial Art: Tricking

 

GURPS has skills divided as the list below. How could you convert that to the Hero System?

 

• Martial Art: The same as the default Hero System approach
  
• Combat Art (Martial Art): Virtually martial art tricking and advanced katas
  
• Combat Sport (Martial Art): Basically STUN only combat

 

Combat sport would be just sparring in Hero. The practioners would be probably be Pulling their Punches and abiding by rules to prevent serious injury such as not targeting vital areas, no joint breaks and certainly no ki manuevers. Combat art would be performances and demonstrations of showy moves. To simulate it, you could use KS (whatever style) with other rolls as complimentary skills, such as Acrobatics and Breakfall (even Com or Pre maybe) with the margin of success determing how good your performance was. In some situations it might give a bonus to Pre attacks or other Interaction skills for impressing an audience or intimidating a possible opponent.

[nexus]

Re: Martial Art: Tricking

 

Nexus: a serious question deserves a serious answer. Your question wasn't about how to implement this martial(-ish) art in the real world' date=' but how to model it in game terms. Comic-book martial arts can be quite flamboyant compared to RL MA. Heck, in one campaign I ran, one of the guys had a "mean little kid" DNPC who was a serious threat to lower-level henchmen with his "kid-fu" and tricks and traps (inspired in part from the [i']Home Alone [/i]movies).

 

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not the original poster but I was commenting on some of the derision in the initial posts. Hero is often used to simulate stories where grown men and women run around in colorful skin tights shooting assorted forms of energy at each other and picking up cars by their bumpers to use as melee weapons; a 360 degree spinning jump kick that’s effective and deadly in combat is practically down to Earth comparatively.

 

Several suggestions put forward by the others are pretty much what I'd have advised. I would like to add, however, that the Trickster art, as demonstrated, would probably have several skill levels to allow the practitioner to maximize OCV, DCV, or damage, as the situation demands.

 

It could be a good sfx for “Skill Level Martial Art” as discussed in the 4th Edition Ultimate Martial Artist.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Martial Art: Tricking

 

Hero is often used to simulate stories where grown men and women run around in colorful skin tights shooting assorted forms of energy at each other and picking up cars by their bumpers to use as melee weapons; a 360 degree spinning jump kick that’s effective and deadly in combat is practically down to Earth comparatively.

 

I think a part of that is we all know flying around and shooting lasers out of your eyes is pure fantasy... at least, I hope we do

 

Martial Arts, by contrast, is something very real that has a LOT of myth surrounding it. I think many posters feel the need to take a "here's how it really works" approach when talking about these things just to give perspective to the conversation.

 

It's also probably a suspension of disbelief thing for quite a few people...

[nexus]

Re: Martial Art: Tricking

 

I think a part of that is we all know flying around and shooting lasers out of your eyes is pure fantasy... at least, I hope we do

 

Martial Arts, by contrast, is something very real that has a LOT of myth surrounding it. I think many posters feel the need to take a "here's how it really works" approach when talking about these things just to give perspective to the conversation.

 

It's also probably a suspension of disbelief thing for quite a few people...

 

It still strikes me as odd. People can talk about being that break the laws of physics into little bitty peices in one fashion with a straight face but get almost haughty when talking them doing it in another fashion. Hurricane Kicks and Haudokens are pure fantasy too and I think most people know that.Superheroes wave allot of technobabble and supposed "science" around too, dealing with real things in a fantastic way.

 

The OP seemed aware that this stuff doesn't really work. You can also point out "Heres how it really works" without being derisive or all "My cool is better than your cool." For example was +3 OCV "only when jumping around like an idiot" or whatever really nessecary or even helpful? Hero's about simulating the cinematic and mythological not paritcularly about realistically simulating an MMA match. "Guy bitten by a radioactive spider that can now shoot webs and has precognition for some unknown reason? Great! Guy that fights like Eddie Goro from Tekken 2? Pfft. yeah whateva..."

 

Any way getting down off the soapbox now.

[Tonio]

Re: Martial Art: Tricking

 

I think it comes from the fact that "shooting lasers out your eyes" doesn't so much break science as we know as it expands it, while Tricking as a viable martial art breaks what we do know about martial arts. Consider "hard science fiction", where an adherence as strict as possible to current laws of physics and such is observed, while introducing new concepts which are as theoretically sound as possible. Hence no "these people evolved to withstand high radiation and heat because their sun nova'd", since evolution is known not to work on such short time periods, but we do get "these people evolved to withstand higher radiation and heat than normal because their world was closer to the sun and had a thinner atmosphere than Earth", since that's at the very least plausible.

 

Saying "my guy can control electricity" presupposes that it's possible for a being to somehow manipulate electricity. Electric eels do something similar. One can assume that given some changes to our current physiology, it could be possible to withstand high voltages and currents. Given that, it's a short step to being able to control that, in a similar way to that with which we control our muscles, for example. So while no, we can't control electricity right now, it's not theoretically impossible for a being to control electricity.

 

On the other hand, using Tricking in an effective offensive way by an otherwise normal human being is pretty hard to imagine, for several reasons.

 

Believing someone can shoot lightning involves a series of smallish imaginative leaps, while believing someone can effectively fight using Tricking involves a small number (maybe 1?) of huge leaps, and I think that's the problem.

 

Not that either should be disallowed in a game setting because of this argument. =)

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Martial Art: Tricking

 

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not the original poster [snip!]

 

I apologise for the confusion. I'm not sure how, but I was addressing the OP and used your name by mistake. Don't ask how, 'cuz I sure don't know either. I've corrected my message to read correctly.

[nexus]

Re: Martial Art: Tricking

 

I think it comes from the fact that "shooting lasers out your eyes" doesn't so much break science as we know as it expands it, while Tricking as a viable martial art breaks what we do know about martial arts. Consider "hard science fiction", where an adherence as strict as possible to current laws of physics and such is observed, while introducing new concepts which are as theoretically sound as possible. Hence no "these people evolved to withstand high radiation and heat because their sun nova'd", since evolution is known not to work on such short time periods, but we do get "these people evolved to withstand higher radiation and heat than normal because their world was closer to the sun and had a thinner atmosphere than Earth", since that's at the very least plausible.

 

Saying "my guy can control electricity" presupposes that it's possible for a being to somehow manipulate electricity. Electric eels do something similar. One can assume that given some changes to our current physiology, it could be possible to withstand high voltages and currents. Given that, it's a short step to being able to control that, in a similar way to that with which we control our muscles, for example. So while no, we can't control electricity right now, it's not theoretically impossible for a being to control electricity.

 

On the other hand, using Tricking in an effective offensive way by an otherwise normal human being is pretty hard to imagine, for several reasons.

 

Believing someone can shoot lightning involves a series of smallish imaginative leaps, while believing someone can effectively fight using Tricking involves a small number (maybe 1?) of huge leaps, and I think that's the problem.

 

Not that either should be disallowed in a game setting because of this argument. =)

 

I can't agree with that Most superhumans perform feats that are flat out physically impossible unless our understanding of physics is very wrong. Electrical controllers, say Jenny Sparks, in the comic don't just jolt someone like an ectrical eel, they often manipulate and seemingly create from nothing massive amouts of power with their minds. The eletrical impulses in out bodies are weak and limited. It's a far cry from generating a mega watt lightening bolt or make an electrical cage. Same with telekinsis and telepathy, where's that energy coming from? Imaging someone that still looks human able to shoot destructive lightening bolts requires a heck of allot of SOD, IMO. It's not a short step at all.

 

Comics are about as far from "Hard Science fiction" as you get. I mean if Electro guy can magically summon energy from nowhere because he was... struck by lightening at some point or he's a "mutant" then Hurricane Kick guy is tapping into his "ch'i" to perform his impossible moves. How can he whirl around in the air, kicking like that with a 30 second hang time? Same way the flying guy can break make speeds with no visible means of support or the Speedster don't crack the concrete with his hugely powerful foots steps or at the high end break the speed of light while also ignoring certain anatomical issuees that just make it impossible for a human being to run that fast. Don't even get me started on things like teleportation, "time rays" and other rubber science. But we ignore that all the time before its fun.

 

I think it's just boils down to preference. We're more willing to suspend our disbelief about some things than others. There isn't anything innately more "realistic" about Captain Stupendous as opposed to Ryu. Frankly, I'm more willing to buy some of the MA stuff because at least it "looks" workable where as allot of comic book super powers don't.

[nexus]

Re: Martial Art: Tricking

 

I apologise for the confusion. I'm not sure how' date=' but I was addressing the OP and used your name by mistake. Don't ask how, 'cuz I sure don't know either. I've corrected my message to read correctly.[/quote']

 

Nothing to apologize for, those things happen.

[OddHat]

Re: Martial Art: Tricking

 

Believing someone can shoot lightning involves a series of smallish imaginative leaps, while believing someone can effectively fight using Tricking involves a small number (maybe 1?) of huge leaps, and I think that's the problem.

 

I'd say that the leap involved in believing a showy, acrobatic fighting style could be made effective is much smaller than the leap involved in believing a man can absorb and store solar energy, then use that energy to fly, move moons, and shoot energy out of his eyes.

 

Which is not to say I entirely disagree with your point; I would just come at it from another direction. When you say "It's [something Not Real]", people shrug and accept or reject it. When you discuss something related to someones real world experience, they quibble.

 

Which gets strange when you point out a fact ("There are people in the world who earn PhDs in a dozen or more subjects / lift over 1000 pounds / get up and walk away relatively unharmed after being shot in the head") only to be told "Nonsense, that's impossible."

[SSgt Baloo]

...And another thing...

 

It just occurred to me that no-one here has yet brought up the wild martial arts of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. I was able to disengage my disbelief for much of the movie. In fact, whenever I saw an "impossible" move (quite a lot of them, actually), I'd think to myself "How would I model that in Hero?" If wild martial arts merits it's own genre, then why can't a wild martial artist exist in a world where many people, tights or no, do equally unbelieveable things unrelated to martial arts?

 

Why single out Martial arts? If you're gonna do things that way, why do supers at all? Let's face it, when any of us run a martial artist in a supers campaign, don't we want our characters to look cool? Don't we need powers and skills that make us a credible threat to the menaces we are likely to face? Why shoud my martial artist be realistic when the Brick on our team can perform impossible feats of strength? Would you insist that the guy who wants to use a laser pistol as his main attack buy it as "obvious, accessible, and immobile" because, realistically, lasers that do that kind of damage are really huge in "real" life? How about Superduperman's ability to leap buildings in a single bound? Unrealistic? Let's deride him and his player.

 

C'mon, guys. This is supposed to be something we do for fun. Let the guy have some fun with it, even when it isn't done the way you'd do it. When you ask for advice, don't you prefer straight answers first, kidding second?

[/soapbox]

[Tonio]

Re: Martial Art: Tricking

 

Hm, true, nexus and OddHat... I still think my point applies to some SFX's/backstories, but there are certainly a lot to which it doesn't apply.

 

It could be that when you understand a subject matter better, it's harder to suspend disbelief regarding that subject. If that were true, then, say, geneticists would have a harder time getting used to a game where mutants have superpowers, since they're much more familiar with the concept of mutations and how they work. A martial artist would have a much harder time accepting Tricking as a MA concept, too. I think we're all more familiar with the specifics of martial arts than, say, genetic mutation, so accepting Tricking is tougher than accepting Mutants.

 

On the other hand, the opposite could very well be true, too. A martial artist would know Tricking doesn't work IRL, but he'd maybe also know why, exactly, it wouldn't work, so he could "fix" it for his character; or maybe he'd just wish it DID work, more than others, so he'd go that route...

 

I dunno. =/

 

Anybody have any info/input on that?

 

(Yah, I'm just arguing academically... it really makes no difference either way, I'm just curious as to why this phenomenon happens.)

[nexus]

Re: Martial Art: Tricking

 

I'd say that the leap involved in believing a showy, acrobatic fighting style could be made effective is much smaller than the leap involved in believing a man can absorb and store solar energy, then use that energy to fly, move moons, and shoot energy out of his eyes.

 

Which is not to say I entirely disagree with your point; I would just come at it from another direction. When you say "It's [something Not Real]", people shrug and accept or reject it. When you discuss something related to someone’s real world experience, they quibble.

 

All right, that’s understandable; it was the attitude of “Oh wow, you’re an idiot for wanting to simulate something so unrealistic.” It’s “Not Real™” after all.

 

Which gets strange when you point out a fact ("There are people in the world who earn PhDs in a dozen or more subjects / lift over 1000 pounds / get up and walk away relatively unharmed after being shot in the head") only to be told "Nonsense, that's impossible."

 

I’ve found many people (including myself at times) mean “something that doesn’t challenge my preconceived notions and sensibilities” when they say “realistic”.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Martial Art: Tricking

 

It could be that when you understand a subject matter better' date=' it's harder to suspend disbelief regarding that subject.[/quote']

 

Quite true. I remember seeing the "A" Team and "Face" disguised himself by putting on a uniform and walked right into a secure installation. We all worked in secure career fields and just laughed, for several reasons. Firstly, Face's hair was down on his collar in violation of military regs. That alone should have garnered suspicion.

 

Secondly, he entered a secure area and no-one challenged him. At the very least someone would have asked to see some I.D., his secure area badge, etc. They would have compared his photo to his face and generally made sure he was who he said he was and was, in fact, allowed in that particular secure area. Nobody unfamiliar with this sort of stuff would ever notice. We didn't let it spoil our experience, however. In stead, we enjoyed spotting unmilitary shenannigans wherever they occurred.

 

Tom Cruise riding his sportbike on the flightline in Top Gun? Busted and severe, if not career-ending disciplinary action.

 

A fixed-wing pilot jumping into a helicopter (or rotary-wing pilot into a fixed-winf craft) and knowing how to fly it just because he's a pilot? Only if he's had training in the other kind of aircraft.

 

Meh! If it's fiction, it doesn't matter so long as you are aware of the differences.

[OddHat]

Re: Martial Art: Tricking

 

Quite true. I remember seeing the "A" Team and "Face" disguised himself by putting on a uniform and walked right into a secure installation. We all worked in secure career fields and just laughed, for several reasons. Firstly, Face's hair was down on his collar in violation of military regs. That alone should have garnered suspicion.

 

Secondly, he entered a secure area and no-one challenged him. At the very least someone would have asked to see some I.D., his secure area badge, etc. They would have compared his photo to his face and generally made sure he was who he said he was and was, in fact, allowed in that particular secure area.

 

Maybe all the guys who were supposed to be tracking who came in and went out or watching the monitors were playing AD&D and eating pizza.

 

[OddHat]

Re: Martial Art: Tricking

 

I’ve found many people (including myself at times) mean “something that doesn’t challenge my preconceived notions and sensibilities” when they say “realistic”.

 

Yup, and I'm guilty of it at times as well.

[pinecone]

Re: Martial Art: Tricking

 

How would you construct the "martial art" Tricking in 5ER?

 

For simplicity, assume that the Wikipedia list below is both correct and complete:

 

Tricking Moves

 

I posted a "High flying wrassler" char a while back that used a lot of stuff you could use +X DCV RSR: Acro....+X HA RSR: Acro....+X Pres only follows signature move......+x Running/Leaping RSR: Acro......etc....

[pinecone]

Re: Martial Art: Tricking

 

"Hopping around makes me Rawk!"

 

+4D6 HA, RSR: Acrobatics (-1) REnd>0 (+1/2) 15 pts

AP for HA, RSR; Acro "Extra cool moves!" 6 pts

+15 Pres, must follow "Extra cool moves!" (-1/2) 10 pts

+2 DCV RSR: Acrobatics roll 6 pts

 

Total 37 pts.....is good?

[Sketchpad]

Re: Martial Art: Tricking

 

Wasn't there a DH where Acrobatics was broken down into MA Maneuvers?

[fredrik_nilsson]

Re: Martial Art: Tricking

 

Yes there was... DH#2 I think.

[pinecone]

Re: Martial Art: Tricking

 

Yes there was... DH#2 I think.

 

You might also look for an anchient (and lousy) film called...Hmmm...Gymkata? about a Gymnist-fu master.....I think a former Olympic medal winner starred in it....

[Bloodstone]

Re: Martial Art: Tricking

 

Yeah, Kurt Thomas, who made flares famous... Here, behold the cheese:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gTkUcXGF_Q

[lemming]

Re: Martial Art: Tricking

 

Ouch. I really tried forgetting that film had ever been made.