Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

[Tonio]

Re: Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

 

Once you have started a defensive action it lasts until your next action. Not until the next time you would've had an action if you hadn't aborted' date=' until your next action. If it helps to think of it this way, you are blocking (or dodging or whatever) as your action in 6. You just started it sooner than normal. [/quote']

 

Ah, ok. I always assumed "until your next action" meant "until you can take your next action". Or more precisely, I thought your "action" was the moment in time when you could act, not the actual act of performing an action. Thanks for clearing that up. =)

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

 

Okay. He gets it.

 

Why am I still confused? Am I being preturnaturally thick today?

[Tonio]

Re: Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

 

Okay. He gets it.

 

Why am I still confused? Am I being preturnaturally thick today?

 

!?!?

 

Are you insinuating I'm thick-headed, sir? Why does my getting something you don't surprise you? I resent that.

 

I blow my nose at you! Your mother was a hampster, and your father smells of elderberries!

 

 

 

 

Yes, I'm kidding. No, I'm not offended. =)

[archermoo]

Re: Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

 

Okay. He gets it.

 

Why am I still confused? Am I being preturnaturally thick today?

 

What bit is still confuzzling?

[Kdansky]

Re: Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

 

But I really do not get the idea behind that rule... I mean: Then I'm just going to delay my action until Dex 1...

[Alibear]

Re: Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

 

Wait till Dex 1 is it? Not if I GM, you don't. Any GM worth his salt would stomp that metagaming stuff into oblivion and beyond.

[Kdansky]

Re: Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

 

Well, I'm not saying I cannot forbid it as GM, but the rules clearly make it advantageous to do this. Also, I cannot forbid people to try to have a low dex (and decent CVs with Combat levels).

Which I consider one of the biggest flaws in the current system (right up there with STR being too cheap). Going first is a disadvantage, going last is good! I still think Lightning Reflexes should be listed as a disad. Yes, I'm exaggerating, but still....

[archermoo]

Re: Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

 

Well, I'm not saying I cannot forbid it as GM, but the rules clearly make it advantageous to do this. Also, I cannot forbid people to try to have a low dex (and decent CVs with Combat levels).

Which I consider one of the biggest flaws in the current system (right up there with STR being too cheap). Going first is a disadvantage, going last is good! I still think Lightning Reflexes should be listed as a disad. Yes, I'm exaggerating, but still....

 

Ah, another misunderstanding. What I was trying to clear up is that if you Abort your action in 6 during 4 you are doing that which you aborted to until your next action comes up. Which in the example would be at your DEX in 9, not 6.

 

An example that will hopefully clear things up:

 

15 DEX 4 SPD character acts in 3. In 4 he gets attacked and so Aborts to Dodge. He doesn't get an action in 6 because he is already using it to Dodge. His next action comes up at DEX 15 in 9. The entire time between when he Aborted to Dodge in 4 and DEX 15 in 9 he is in Dodge. He can choose to act or delay his action, but unless he uses his action to Dodge, he isn't Dodging anymore at that point.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

 

So thusly on Dex 15 P9 he could CHOOSE to Dodge again as his action, yes? Now.

 

HTF does Flying Dodge work in this example?

[archermoo]

Re: Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

 

So thusly on Dex 15 P9 he could CHOOSE to Dodge again as his action, yes? Now.

 

HTF does Flying Dodge work in this example?

 

Yes. And if he didn't choose to Dodge again and chose to say, delay his action, he would no longer be Dodging.

 

As far as Flying Dodge goes, it works the same as it always would.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

 

Yes. And if he didn't choose to Dodge again and chose to say, delay his action, he would no longer be Dodging.

 

As far as Flying Dodge goes, it works the same as it always would.

 

HA. And how is that. Exactly.

[archermoo]

Re: Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

 

HA. And how is that. Exactly.

 

Flying Dodge is a maneuver that has a +4 DCV, can be aborted to, and allows for up to a Full Move. So if you abort to a Flying Dodge you can make up to a Full Move and you get +4 DCV.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

 

Flying Dodge is a maneuver that has a +4 DCV' date=' can be aborted to, and allows for up to a Full Move. So if you abort to a Flying Dodge you can make up to a Full Move and you get +4 DCV.[/quote']

 

stares calmly.

 

No, seriously, how does it work?

[archermoo]

Re: Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

 

stares calmly.

 

No, seriously, how does it work?

 

Flying Dodge is a maneuver that has a +4 DCV, can be aborted to, and allows for up to a Full Move. So if you abort to a Flying Dodge you can make up to a Full Move and you get +4 DCV.

 

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

 

Flying Dodge is a maneuver that has a +4 DCV, can be aborted to, and allows for up to a Full Move. So if you abort to a Flying Dodge you can make up to a Full Move and you get +4 DCV.

 

 

Dude, stop lying. Clearly, that can't be right. Then I'm dodging AND diving for cover all at once without ANY penalties to ANYTHING. Inconceivable!!

[archermoo]

Re: Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

 

Dude' date=' stop lying. Clearly, that can't be right. Then I'm dodging AND diving for cover all at once without ANY penalties to ANYTHING. Inconceivable!![/quote']

 

It actually doesn't work exactly like a Dive For Cover does. Straight by the rules while a ranged attack would automatically miss someone who sucessfully Dove for Cover, that isn't the case for someone using a Flying Dodge.

 

And you are paying for the ability to do so. Diving for Cover is something that anyone can do. Flying Dodge is a martial maneuver that you have to buy.

[Alibear]

Re: Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

 

What the archermoo said.

[Kdansky]

Re: Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

 

And that is why everyone wants to invest 10-25 points into MA in a free-form-character campaign where you are not limited by archetypes. Massive advantages for cheap. Flying Dodge is like a full move with 4 DCV bonus, that's just plain 4 DCV better than not having it. Same goes for Defensive strike (yeah, same damage, but includes 4 CVs!) or offensive strike (slight cv improvement, slight damage improvement) or block (+2/+2? Holy Crap?!).

 

I meant something else though:

 

I'm speed 4, dex 20, my opponent is speed 2, dex 16. In segment 6, I go first, and attack (don't stun or KO him). He attacks me at dex16, I CANNOT abort to dodge because I already acted. Therefore holding until he attacks, then dodging with the held action and attacking on 9 is a lot better. Going first is a disadvantage, as it prevents me from aborting until the segment is finished. Now assume I have lightning Reflexes for 100 points. Result? I cannot ever abort on my segments, making me a duck. If I have dex 1, I can abort anytime against anything, since I'm always last. That's so wrong!

[Alibear]

Re: Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

 

If you're tactiaclly incompetant having a higher Dex might, in certain situations, be a limitation.

 

But, overall, going first is a huge advantage. Getting the other guy to dodge is always better. Getting the other guy on the back foot is usually the best bet.

 

Being proactive, in Hero, like in real life is always better than being reactive.

[braincraft]

Re: Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

 

You can always delay your action, though. The difference between a high DEX and a low DEX is that the high DEX always has the option of going first or last; the guy with the low DEX only gets to go when the other guy lets him.

[Kdansky]

Re: Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

 

You can always delay your action' date=' though. The difference between a high DEX and a low DEX is that the high DEX always has the option of going first or last; the guy with the low DEX only gets to go when the other guy lets him.[/quote']

 

But that makes the game complicated if everyone tries to get 120% out of their character & the rules, since in that case, many high-speed characters would delay out of principle until dex1 to see what their opponent does (if they assume going first will not be a huge advantage, and as a speedster vs brick you probably won't stun him, so going first is NOT better), which in turn would also delay...

 

So everyone delays, makes combat very complicated and the end result is rather similar. If we just allow aborting in the segment you had a phase, this won't happen. What's so bad about that anyway? Sure "You are opened while you fire" makes sense, but on the other hand, it does not work very well, as I pointed out.

 

Or the slow guy is delaying until the fast guy wants to fire (so he can fire at him when the fast guy cannot abort to MartialDodge), and due to that, the fast guy is also delaying until the slow guy *has* to fire or he will lose a phase, and then the fast guy dodges with the held action. End result: complications.

[Tonio]

Re: Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

 

High DEX can hold their action in order to "react" to Low DEX. Or they can act pre-emptively, hoping to invalidate Low DEX's action (move around the corner, Low DEX can't shoot me; hit and Stun Low DEX, now he can't move, etc.). Lower DEX is not an Advantage; higher DEX can always hold, which is not the same as Aborting, since you can execute offensive actions with a held Phase.

 

Edit: I just remembered... I used to play a game where (and I don't remember whether this was a house rule) players playing characters with low initiative had to declare their actions first, but characters with high initiative actually executed their actions first.

 

E.g.: Slow Brick vs Fast MA

 

Slow Brick: Ok, I'm gonna hit him.

Fast MA: I get out of the way.

 

[Fast MA moves, Brick swings at empty air.]

 

Slow Brick: I run and punch.

Fast MA: Meh, ok, I kick.

 

[Fast MA kicks, knocks Slow Brick out. Brick's knocked out, can't punch.]

[archermoo]

Re: Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

 

And that is why everyone wants to invest 10-25 points into MA in a free-form-character campaign where you are not limited by archetypes. Massive advantages for cheap. Flying Dodge is like a full move with 4 DCV bonus, that's just plain 4 DCV better than not having it. Same goes for Defensive strike (yeah, same damage, but includes 4 CVs!) or offensive strike (slight cv improvement, slight damage improvement) or block (+2/+2? Holy Crap?!).

 

I meant something else though:

 

I'm speed 4, dex 20, my opponent is speed 2, dex 16. In segment 6, I go first, and attack (don't stun or KO him). He attacks me at dex16, I CANNOT abort to dodge because I already acted. Therefore holding until he attacks, then dodging with the held action and attacking on 9 is a lot better. Going first is a disadvantage, as it prevents me from aborting until the segment is finished. Now assume I have lightning Reflexes for 100 points. Result? I cannot ever abort on my segments, making me a duck. If I have dex 1, I can abort anytime against anything, since I'm always last. That's so wrong!

 

Why do you think Aborting is so much better than simply using your Phase? You have a considerably smaller number of options available to you when you are Aborting.

 

Using your same example, SPD4 DEX20 vs SPD2 DEX16:

 

In 12 DEX20 man, who seems to be afraid of DEX16 man's attacks enough that he feels he needs to dodge them all, goes into Dodge. Presumably DEX16 man misses. On 3 DEX20 man attacks DEX16 man, who can't do anything about it unless he wants to abort his only action before 12. On 6 DEX20 man goes back into dodge before DEX16 man has the opportunity to attack him, and then attacks on 9. Knowing that he'll be able to dodge in 12 before DEX16 man can attack again. Rinse, repeat.

 

Where is the disadvantage of being faster again?

 

Yes, Hero combat can be complex. You have to make choices between the extremes of offense and defense. It isn't always a straightforward matter of choosing the obvious "best" thing to do.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

 

Being proactive' date=' in Hero, like in real life is always better than being reactive.[/quote']

 

 

 

 

Except that Hero doesn't use that ridiculously overused fake terminology 'proactive'. The opposite of reactive is ACTIVE. As in 'it is better to be active than reactive'. Proactiv is some sort of hair or skin product. It isn't something you do, it's something people with bad hair or skin BUY.

[braincraft]

Re: Blocking/Counterstriking... Knockback (unrelated)

 

But that makes the game complicated if everyone tries to get 120% out of their character & the rules, since in that case, many high-speed characters would delay out of principle until dex1 to see what their opponent does (if they assume going first will not be a huge advantage, and as a speedster vs brick you probably won't stun him, so going first is NOT better), which in turn would also delay...

 

So everyone delays, makes combat very complicated and the end result is rather similar. If we just allow aborting in the segment you had a phase, this won't happen. What's so bad about that anyway? Sure "You are opened while you fire" makes sense, but on the other hand, it does not work very well, as I pointed out.

 

Or the slow guy is delaying until the fast guy wants to fire (so he can fire at him when the fast guy cannot abort to MartialDodge), and due to that, the fast guy is also delaying until the slow guy *has* to fire or he will lose a phase, and then the fast guy dodges with the held action. End result: complications.

 

No, the end result = standoff, which is both reasonable and dramatic. Assuming that these aren't the last two people in the universe and that eventually one or both parties will have to eat, sleep, or use the toilet at some point in the future, you can skip ahead to the part where somebody shoots first (Han, dammit).

 

I don't think it's 'complicated' for two evenly-matched opponents to warily circle each other until something happens. Maybe somebody's friends get there. Maybe something nearby explodes and distracts them. Maybe somebody loses his patience and takes his chances. And god forbid you're talking about this happening in the middle of a group melee; if you're standing around in the middle of a fight waiting on everybody else, somebody's going to take the opportunity to take a potshot.

 

And no matter how much you delay, the guy with the better DEX still has the edge in interrupt roll-offs. It's not complicated, just uncertain, and no amount of waiting and seeing is going to grant certainty when the rounds start flying. Anybody who thinks there's a magic trick to initiative is outsmarting himself.