Hitting or attacking Endurance

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hitting or attacking Endurance

 

I've seen this a couple of times now and I'm slightly confused. Probably because I've never thought it through before.

 

The Living Battery has 50 END when fully rested, but has been exerting himself and is down to 25.

 

He gets hit by a Drain END , and loses 10 character points worth (20 END).

 

Is he down to 5 END, or is he still on 25 END but with a maximum of 30?

 

We've always kept seperate track of drained and used END, when it has come up, so in th above example, he would have 25 used END and 20 drained END, and would have 5 END left: he gets the 25 points back at REC/turn and the 20 back at 5cps (10 END)/turn.

 

Is that wrong then?

 

He would be down to 5 END, and have a 30 END max. Let's give him a REC of 8. In PS 12, he would recover 8 END normally, plus 10 END (5 CP) of the drain, so he now has 23 END (5 + 8 + 10) and a 40 max (30 + 10).

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Hitting or attacking Endurance

 

Hugh Neilson,

 

Same question - can you provide a page reference? I can't find one to support either position.

[Tonio]

Re: Hitting or attacking Endurance

 

Hugh Neilson,

 

Same question - can you provide a page reference? I can't find one to support either position.

 

I was about to post the same question. It sort of makes sense, especially since it might make STUN and END Drains (and to a lesser extent, Supresses) too weak otherwise, but I really haven't "done the math" to be sure.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Hitting or attacking Endurance

 

I do and have always done Drains the way archermoo and Hugh Neilson say is correct, but when I went to find the reference in 5er, I don't see it. Thus the question.

[archermoo]

Re: Hitting or attacking Endurance

 

archermoo,

 

Can you provide a page reference? I just looked at Adjustment Powers and Drain in 5er, and can't find anything to point either way.

 

Sure thing: 5ER p151. Drain is described as removing 1d6 of CPs per 10 points spent. Not that it does "damage" to an power/characteristic, but that it makes it smaller.

 

As an example: A character has 50 END, which is 25 CPs. At a particular point in a combat they have spent 20 END. Their END Characteristic is still 50, they have just used 20 points worth. At this point they get hit by a 3d6 END Drain, which rolls 10 CPs. This drops the Characteristic by 10 CPs, so now they only have 15 CPs worth of END, which is to say 30 END. And they have still spent 20 of those END, and so only have 10 left to use.

[Tonio]

Re: Hitting or attacking Endurance

 

Sure thing: 5ER p151. Drain is described as removing 1d6 of CPs per 10 points spent. Not that it does "damage" to an power/characteristic, but that it makes it smaller.

 

As an example: A character has 50 END, which is 25 CPs. At a particular point in a combat they have spent 20 END. Their END Characteristic is still 50, they have just used 20 points worth. At this point they get hit by a 3d6 END Drain, which rolls 10 CPs. This drops the Characteristic by 10 CPs, so now they only have 15 CPs worth of END, which is to say 30 END. And they have still spent 20 of those END, and so only have 10 left to use.

 

Ah! I had a feeling a more scrutinous look at the rules would solve this. Although I'd like to point out that Drain (and presumably Suppress, etc.) modify Active Points, not Character Points (as in not Real Cost points). Not that it makes your comment less valid, just pointing it out. =D

[archermoo]

Re: Hitting or attacking Endurance

 

Ah! I had a feeling a more scrutinous look at the rules would solve this. Although I'd like to point out that Drain (and presumably Suppress' date=' etc.) modify Active Points, not Character Points (as in not Real Cost points). Not that it makes your comment less valid, just pointing it out. =D[/quote']

 

The text in the book uses both Active Points and Character Points. There is no reason to assume that Character Points means Real Cost.

[Tonio]

Re: Hitting or attacking Endurance

 

The text in the book uses both Active Points and Character Points. There is no reason to assume that Character Points means Real Cost.

 

Fair enough. I didn't mean it as a correction, but as more of a clarification. That is, rolling a "10" on an END Drain wouldn't drain 40 "END, Only At Night (-1)". Not that you claimed, or even implied, it would... I just thought someone might be confused (which basically means I was confused, hee hee).

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Hitting or attacking Endurance

 

Sure thing: 5ER p151. Drain is described as removing 1d6 of CPs per 10 points spent. Not that it does "damage" to an power/characteristic, but that it makes it smaller.

 

As an example: A character has 50 END, which is 25 CPs. At a particular point in a combat they have spent 20 END. Their END Characteristic is still 50, they have just used 20 points worth. At this point they get hit by a 3d6 END Drain, which rolls 10 CPs. This drops the Characteristic by 10 CPs, so now they only have 15 CPs worth of END, which is to say 30 END. And they have still spent 20 of those END, and so only have 10 left to use.

archermoo,

 

Thanks for the reply!

 

I saw that sentence when looking for confirmation of the method, and I don’t think that it proves or disproves the method.

 

Using the 50 END character and a glass of water for an analogy:

 

1. Character starts with 50 END (25 CPs) and has not used any of them. His glass is 50 END tall and completely full.

 

2. Character expends 20 END. His glass is 50 END tall and 60% full.

 

3. Character is Drained 10 CPs of END. His glass is now 30 END (15 CPs) tall without question – but did the Drain cut off the ‘top’ or ‘bottom’ of the glass? IOW, does he lose the full or empty CPs?

 

I don’t see anything that shows which. I dont' see anything that confirms or denies using the 'down from current maximum' method of counting. (May have missed it, though.)

[Tonio]

Re: Hitting or attacking Endurance

 

archermoo,

 

Thanks for the reply!

 

I saw that sentence when looking for confirmation of the method, and I don’t think that it proves or disproves the method.

 

Using the 50 END character and a glass of water for an analogy:

 

1. Character starts with 50 END (25 CPs) and has not used any of them. His glass is 50 END tall and completely full.

 

2. Character expends 20 END. His glass is 50 END tall and 60% full.

 

3. Character is Drained 10 CPs of END. His glass is now 30 END (15 CPs) tall without question – but did the Drain cut off the ‘top’ or ‘bottom’ of the glass? IOW, does he lose the full or empty CPs?

 

I don’t see anything that shows which. I dont' see anything that confirms or denies using the 'down from current maximum' method of counting. (May have missed it, though.)

 

Well, if you've spent 20 END, and your max is 30, how much END do you have? 10. It should not matter how it came to be that your max is 30. Don't think of it as losing full or empty CPs, think of it as losing END (the stat, not the 'current END' count), then recalculating your current END count from your new max and past expenditures/recoveries.

[archermoo]

Re: Hitting or attacking Endurance

 

archermoo,

 

Thanks for the reply!

 

I saw that sentence when looking for confirmation of the method, and I don’t think that it proves or disproves the method.

 

Using the 50 END character and a glass of water for an analogy:

 

1. Character starts with 50 END (25 CPs) and has not used any of them. His glass is 50 END tall and completely full.

 

2. Character expends 20 END. His glass is 50 END tall and 60% full.

 

3. Character is Drained 10 CPs of END. His glass is now 30 END (15 CPs) tall without question – but did the Drain cut off the ‘top’ or ‘bottom’ of the glass? IOW, does he lose the full or empty CPs?

 

I don’t see anything that shows which. I dont' see anything that confirms or denies using the 'down from current maximum' method of counting. (May have missed it, though.)

 

Well, the intent of the description of Drain seems pretty straightforward to me. If it doesn't to you, I'd suggest asking Steve in the rules forum, as I don't think I'll be able to provide a satisfactory answer.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Hitting or attacking Endurance

 

Tonio,

 

Yes - and the converse is if I spent 20 END from 50, I have 30 END left. Why should it matter if my max drops from 50 to 30?

 

 

Two ways to look at it:

 

1. I'm down X points from whatever my max is because I've spent them.

 

2. I have Y points left, so lowering the max doesn't change that (unless of course the max goes below Y).

 

*****************

 

Note: None of this is meant to sound confrontational or snarky. Tone is often lost in text.

[archermoo]

Re: Hitting or attacking Endurance

 

Note: None of this is meant to sound confrontational or snarky. Tone is often lost in text.

 

Goes for me too, btw.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Hitting or attacking Endurance

 

Well' date=' the intent of the description of Drain seems pretty straightforward to me. If it doesn't to you, I'd suggest asking Steve in the rules forum, as I don't think I'll be able to provide a satisfactory answer.[/quote']Well, the same interpretation seems to be common sense to me as well - but I've noticed that Steve and I don't always have the same definition of 'common sense'.

 

I'll poke around 5er tonight for a while, and ask in the Rules forum if I can't find anything more.

[archermoo]

Re: Hitting or attacking Endurance

 

Well, the same interpretation seems to be common sense to me as well - but I've noticed that Steve and I don't always have the same definition of 'common sense'.

 

I'll poke around 5er tonight for a while, and ask in the Rules forum if I can't find anything more.

 

Cool. Let me know if you find anything.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Hitting or attacking Endurance

 

Goes for me too' date=' btw. [/quote']Oh yeah!

 

You and I 'know' each other (in an internet-board-posting way), so I didn't figure either of us was getting hot under the collar. More for Tonio, to ward off any potential misunderstanding.

[Tonio]

Re: Hitting or attacking Endurance

 

Tonio,

 

Yes - and the converse is if I spent 20 END from 50, I have 30 END left. Why should it matter if my max drops from 50 to 30?

 

 

Two ways to look at it:

 

1. I'm down X points from whatever my max is because I've spent them.

 

2. I have Y points left, so lowering the max doesn't change that (unless of course the max goes below Y).

 

*****************

 

Note: None of this is meant to sound confrontational or snarky. Tone is often lost in text.

 

Oh I unnerstand the "losing empty vs full points" concept, I didn't mean to imply it was faulty reasoning.

 

All I can think of to explain it is that if you recalculate your END given recent changes to your END score (recoveries, expenditures... assuming drains and aids affect your stat, not your score), you'll end up with the lowered END score.

 

That is, start with a baseline of 50 END, spend 30, get 10 back from a recovery. Calculate current total: 50-30+10 = 30. Now, you get drained of 20 END (10 CPs worth of END). Recalculate current total: 30 (your new max) - 30 + 10 = 10.

 

How "recent"? Well, I'd say since last time it was max, which is the default, I guess.

 

Then again, I do realize this isn't stricly spelled out like this in the RAW, even if I just realized that, hehe.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Hitting or attacking Endurance

 

I think I figured it out this way: the text under Aid does not mention having to Recover an expendable Characteristic (END, STUN, BODY) after being Aided. Indeed, Aid BODY would be just about useless if this were the case! So Drain should affect both current and max values.

 

Still, there's a section on 5er page 105 that deals with Increasing Expendable Abilities, but no corresponding section on Decreasing Expendable Abilities, so I asked the question in the Rules forum.

 

Perhaps 'expending' such Abilities is considered losing the Active Points in them for that period of time...

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Hitting or attacking Endurance

 

It's official; we wuz doin' it the right way!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Hitting or attacking Endurance

 

Back on topic...I see this as being a Limitation to Drain. How much of one is debatable, but I'd call it a -1/4 unless something specific forced me to reconsider because its really just not that much of a limit in real terms. In this case the MAX is still drained, the only thing being modified is the rate at which points return.

 

Drain END xd6, No Fade Rate (END Regained Normally By Target Via Recovery; -1/4)

 

On the other hand, a different permutation of this is the concept of a Drain that only Drains CURRENT not MAXIMUM potential. I'd call that a -1/2 as it has some other rules implications vis a vis other Adjustment powers.

 

Drain END xd6, Current Value Only (Maximum Value Not Affected; -1/2)

 

 

However, this would definitely be a case where I'd keep an eye on it and be prepared to adjust the modifier value based upon real play experience demonstrating it is more or less limiting than I initially considered. I could just as easily go -0 / -1/4 on these two without blinking an eye as they are pretty "weak" in terms of real impact.

[Doc]

Re: Hitting or attacking Endurance

 

Back on topic...I see this as being a Limitation to Drain. How much of one is debatable, but I'd call it a -1/4 unless something specific forced me to reconsider because its really just not that much of a limit in real terms. In this case the MAX is still drained, the only thing being modified is the rate at which points return.

 

Drain END xd6, No Fade Rate (END Regained Normally By Target Via Recovery; -1/4)

 

On the other hand, a different permutation of this is the concept of a Drain that only Drains CURRENT not MAXIMUM potential. I'd call that a -1/2 as it has some other rules implications vis a vis other Adjustment powers.

 

Drain END xd6, Current Value Only (Maximum Value Not Affected; -1/2)

 

 

However, this would definitely be a case where I'd keep an eye on it and be prepared to adjust the modifier value based upon real play experience demonstrating it is more or less limiting than I initially considered. I could just as easily go -0 / -1/4 on these two without blinking an eye as they are pretty "weak" in terms of real impact.

 

Geez, thanks a lot. I was beginning to wonder if I'd find a satisfying answer (I mean, an answer that really get to what I had in mind; I'm thankfull to the other members who answered me as well).

 

Sounds pretty good to me. I'll post something about the cost modificator if I get the chance to try this in a real game (as my gaming group is a little dispersed right now...).

 

Thanks again!