Desolid and Strength

[UpChuck]

hi. I was building a martial artist who stayed desolid whilst fighting and was wondering if "affects physical world" limitation had to be paid on strength or on the martial arts package...or both.

 

thanks...

[jtelson]

Re: Desolid and Strength

 

According to 5th Revised just the strength, martial maneuvers and physical skills come part and parcel.

[Sidume]

Re: Desolid and Strength

 

You may have to check with your GM though. If your Martial Artist has a 15 STR, useable desolid, s/he may insist that you pay the +2 advantage on all the STR, not just the STR you paid points for.

[Outsider]

Re: Desolid and Strength

 

I certainly would require all 15 be Usable on solid. Otherwise, the MA would only be able to use 5 of his str against the solid world while desolid.

 

It is still a heck of a deal, being able to use all your MA maneuver damage, MA DCs, and any skill levels converted to damage without paying the advantage, considering that those DCs can easily be the great majority of the MA's damage output.

 

Were I GM, and had I a 75 AP limit on attacks, the martial artist wouldnt be able to do more than 5D6, or exert more than 25 STR while desolid, no matter what the math otherwise said.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Desolid and Strength

 

hi. I was building a martial artist who stayed desolid whilst fighting and was wondering if "affects physical world" limitation had to be paid on strength or on the martial arts package...or both.

 

thanks...

 

Just the STR...and here is a character with exactly that shtick:

 

Turbofist

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Desolid and Strength

 

Wow. That is ridiculously unbalancing, IMO. NIMC.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Desolid and Strength

 

Wow. That is ridiculously unbalancing' date=' IMO. NIMC. [/quote']

 

It can be unbalancing if the character is allowed to have a lot of Damage Classes, which gets around it.

 

However, it makes sense mechanically -- if you didnt have any MA's and you bought APW for your STR you could strike and grab and move by (etc) without having to buy APW for the free maneuvers.

 

I allowed Turbofist to have it, but insisted on a high END cost to force the player to manage their resources to utilize it and make using it have an impact.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Desolid and Strength

 

I agree that it's logically correct. I just think it's horrifying.

[Outsider]

Re: Desolid and Strength

 

So he's desolid AND invisible with a 17D6 attack (flying kick) that he can use on the solid world?

 

Wow. Just wow.

 

The END limitation isnt all that odious since he can opt to use less than his full STR. Using 5 STR, for example, he does 15D6 Affects Solid World, and spends only 3 END/Phase. If he uses 0 STR (0 END!) he does 14D6, and spends no END.

 

Of course, everyone's campaign is different. If it works and isnt unbalancing, then it works and isnt unbalancing.

[pinecone]

Re: Desolid and Strength

 

hi. I was building a martial artist who stayed desolid whilst fighting and was wondering if "affects physical world" limitation had to be paid on strength or on the martial arts package...or both.

 

thanks...

 

Technicly just the STR, but be warned it's really ugly effective....

 

Disclaimer: I used to play a super Ninja named Ghost Dragon...it was really ugly effective!

[Greywind]

Re: Desolid and Strength

 

So he's desolid AND invisible with a 17D6 attack (flying kick) that he can use on the solid world?

 

Wow. Just wow.

 

The END limitation isnt all that odious since he can opt to use less than his full STR. Using 5 STR, for example, he does 15D6 Affects Solid World, and spends only 3 END/Phase. If he uses 0 STR (0 END!) he does 14D6, and spends no END.

 

Of course, everyone's campaign is different. If it works and isnt unbalancing, then it works and isnt unbalancing.

He'd still spend 1 End for acting.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Desolid and Strength

 

So he's desolid AND invisible with a 17D6 attack (flying kick) that he can use on the solid world?

 

Wow. Just wow.

 

The END limitation isnt all that odious since he can opt to use less than his full STR. Using 5 STR, for example, he does 15D6 Affects Solid World, and spends only 3 END/Phase. If he uses 0 STR (0 END!) he does 14D6, and spends no END.

 

Of course, everyone's campaign is different. If it works and isnt unbalancing, then it works and isnt unbalancing.

 

Well, Im not interested in playing the "second guess me" game, but a few thoughts:

 

A) you are welcome to check out the campaign the character participated in for yourself here. All the other PC's arc summaries and other goodies are also available here.

 

The agreement I had with the player was all or nothing -- either use all 15 STR and 9 END or use none of it.

 

C) Yes, the character was powerful. But then, all of the Millennial Men were pretty butch. As were the foes they were opposing.

 

D) If you think that version of the character is bad, you really don't want to see the Speedzone using version.

 

E) If you don't like it, well and good -- don't allow it in your games. It is however technically legal. Like many things in the HERO System, GM discretion is advised in the Affects Physical World description for a reason.

[Outsider]

Re: Desolid and Strength

 

A) I didnt think you'd allow it if it was a complete 'daquari man' power in your campaign.

 

That keeps the END cost restrictive, but it isnt the way the power is written on the character sheet. The sheet say's "up to 15 points of STR", and doesnt have 'beam' or anything similar that implies that it is all or nothing.

 

C) See point A, and the last line of my first post. Everyone's campaign is different. If it works and isnt unbalancing, then it works and isnt unbalancing.

 

D) I dont think its 'bad', just very powerful. It would be 'bad' if dropped in most other campaigns I've been in though, as it would be unbalancing in those campaigns.

 

E) What I don't like about it isnt a matter of legality. If the official ruling is that you only need ASW for the STR, and the rest of the added dice tag along for free, that's the rule. I think it is a bad rule though.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Desolid and Strength

 

A) I didnt think you'd allow it if it was a complete 'daquari man' power in your campaign.

 

That keeps the END cost restrictive, but it isnt the way the power is written on the character sheet. The sheet say's "up to 15 points of STR", and doesnt have 'beam' or anything similar that implies that it is all or nothing.

 

C) See point A, and the last line of my first post. Everyone's campaign is different. If it works and isnt unbalancing, then it works and isnt unbalancing.

 

D) I dont think its 'bad', just very powerful. It would be 'bad' if dropped in most other campaigns I've been in though, as it would be unbalancing in those campaigns.

 

E) What I don't like about it isnt a matter of legality. If the official ruling is that you only need ASW for the STR, and the rest of the added dice tag along for free, that's the rule. I think it is a bad rule though.

 

A) I dont know what "daquari man" means

 

B1) That's how HD does NPA notations.

B2) I don't feel compelled to record every nuance on paper for your convenience.

 

C) I was stating my view of the context, not claiming you did or didn't state that everyone's campaign is different.

 

D) I was being facetious.

 

E) I don't think its a bad rule inasmuch as it is consistent, I just think it illustrates that 1) STR is too cheap to begin with which 2) causes the costs of things derived from STR to be too low 3) including MA damage classes. It wouldnt make sense to make a character buy APW on Martial Maneuvers. It might be fair to make them buy it for Damage Classes however.

[Outsider]

Re: Desolid and Strength

 

A) I didnt remember if 'Daquari Man' was a general HERO reference or just something from my old college group. I guess it was the latter. "Daquari Man" was a reference to any character build that was essentially undetectable and untouchable to the great majority of other character builds, and yet was able to attack them. The ultimate example being the guy with global scale Mindscan and Ego Blast who just lays on a beach in the tropics somewhere sipping daquaris while Mindscanning for, and mentally attacking his opponents. From the opponents point of view, the attack comes out of nowhere, and there isnt anything they can do about it anyway, unless they have some pretty particular powers.

 

B1) HD does a poor job in this instance then.

B2) If you don't want commentary from the peanut gallery, dont post your characters in an open forum.

 

 

E) I think it is a bad rule because it breaks the basic HERO philosophy that you only get what you pay for. Compared to other builds that allow a character to do 17D6 ASW attacks, this is dirt cheap. Most people would have to pay an additional 170 points (modified down by limitations, if any) to make a 17D6 Attack on the solid world while desolid, while this build allows it for all of 30 points. Its even cheaper if the Martial Artist isnt required to use all of his STR to add the maneuver & DC stuff either. Bad Rule. Opinions may vary, of course.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Desolid and Strength

 

A) I didnt remember if 'Daquari Man' was a general HERO reference or just something from my old college group. I guess it was the latter. "Daquari Man" was a reference to any character build that was essentially undetectable and untouchable to the great majority of other character builds, and yet was able to attack them. The ultimate example being the guy with global scale Mindscan and Ego Blast who just lays on a beach in the tropics somewhere sipping daquaris while Mindscanning for, and mentally attacking his opponents. From the opponents point of view, the attack comes out of nowhere, and there isnt anything they can do about it anyway, unless they have some pretty particular powers.

 

B1) HD does a poor job in this instance then.

B2) If you don't want commentary from the peanut gallery, dont post your characters in an open forum.

B2) Actually youll notice that I didnt post the character to the forum, I posted a link to a character hosted on my own site. I did so not for you or your gallery of peanuts to pick at, but rather since it was directly relevant to the opening posters question as an example for their benefit. If I wanted feedback I would have asked for feedback. In this case, I could care less since it is someone elses character from a campaign that is long over. But hey, thanks for your unsolicited and unwelcome feedback; please don't put yourself out on my behalf in future.

 

E) I think it is a bad rule because it breaks the basic HERO philosophy that you only get what you pay for. Compared to other builds that allow a character to do 17D6 ASW attacks, this is dirt cheap. Most people would have to pay an additional 170 points (modified down by limitations, if any) to make a 17D6 Attack on the solid world while desolid, while this build allows it for all of 30 points. Its even cheaper if the Martial Artist isnt required to use all of his STR to add the maneuver & DC stuff either. Bad Rule. Opinions may vary, of course.

 

It's not my rule; take it up with Steve. In the meantime no one is forcing you to use it.

[Outsider]

Re: Desolid and Strength

 

B2) Actually youll notice that I didnt post the character to the forum, I posted a link to a character hosted on my own site. I did so not for you or your gallery of peanuts to pick at, but rather since it was directly relevant to the opening posters question as an example for their benefit. If I wanted feedback I would have asked for feedback. In this case, I could care less since it is someone elses character from a campaign that is long over. But hey, thanks for your unsolicited and unwelcome feedback; please don't put yourself out on my behalf in future.

 

Whatever, man.

 

Posting a link to material on your own website in an open forum is an invitation for all and sundry to click it. Its essentially the same thing as posting the material directly. But you seem to have a deep-seated need to 'win' this exchange, so here you go : I was wrong, sick and wrong, to even think of commenting on anything you say in other than an adulatory way. You're far better than me in all things and I will endeavor to 'stay in my place' in the future. You win.

 

 

PS : Feel free to post one more time in reference to this exchange so you get the last word too. Though with a victory so complete I don't know what else there is to be said.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Desolid and Strength

 

Just for the record, so there's no confusion, when I was saying I things like "NIMC" and "it's horrifying," I was referring to the rule, not the character.

[Alibear]

Re: Desolid and Strength

 

Unwelcome feedback? Don't post if you don't want feedback. If you just wanted him to know you could have used the PM function. Very bad form, Mr. Moderator Man.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Desolid and Strength

 

Unwelcome feedback? Don't post if you don't want feedback. If you just wanted him to know you could have used the PM function. Very bad form' date=' Mr. Moderator Man.[/quote']

I love how if someone tries to point a person asking for help to a resource they instead become a target for critics who themselves seem to provide little or nothing of their own.

 

As far as your blanket assumption that a post = a request for feedback, that's bogus. People can seek feedback via these forums, that does not mean that every single post must be a request for feedback.

 

In general posting a link and saying, "hey, this might be of interest to you" is not the same thing as saying "hey, Im seeking feedback on the contents of the link".

 

In specific if and when I want feedback, I say so. If i don't then I don't. Simple.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Desolid and Strength

 

Whatever, man.

 

Posting a link to material on your own website in an open forum is an invitation for all and sundry to click it. Its essentially the same thing as posting the material directly.

 

No, posting the material directly is posting the material directly. Anything other than that is by definition NOT THE SAME, since it is, you know, essentially different.

 

But you seem to have a deep-seated need to 'win' this exchange, so here you go : I was wrong, sick and wrong, to even think of commenting on anything you say in other than an adulatory way. You're far better than me in all things and I will endeavor to 'stay in my place' in the future. You win.

 

Melodramatic much? Can you not have a disagreement with someone without striking some tragic pose of victimization? And I want your adulation about as much as I want your criticism -- which is to say not at all. The only thing I want from you is an understanding that your input is not wanted.

 

 

 

PS : Feel free to post one more time in reference to this exchange so you get the last word too. Though with a victory so complete I don't know what else there is to be said.

 

Well if we're going to be silly about this and act childish rather than just, you know, agree to disagree and walk away, very well...I'd like to know if there is a trophy associated with this victory? I think it would look nice on my mantle. I normally like to celebrate my victories with some champagne and a party, can you make that happen for me? Thanks.

[Alibear]

Re: Desolid and Strength

 

I for one have no problem with the character. In a high powered game he'd be just fine. Lots of characters have access to a wider variety of powers, the powers, or the advantage needed to affect him. Many more have VPPs.

 

Also any GM, I'm assuming that was you, would know about this power and often tweak the opposition so at least one person could affect him, if need be.

 

Still, that has nothing to do with the fact that we all have the ability to use the PM function. If you don't want your comments to be commented upon on, then don't post in a public forum.

 

 

If haven't seen anyone else feel the need to give permission as to when we can, or cannot comment on our comments.

 

And, by the way, I didn't post anything 'cos I had nothing to say until you started getting all shirty.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Desolid and Strength

 

I for one have no problem with the character. In a high powered game he'd be just fine. Lots of characters have access to a wider variety of powers, the powers, or the advantage needed to affect him. Many more have VPPs.

 

Also any GM, I'm assuming that was you, would know about this power and often tweak the opposition so at least one person could affect him, if need be.

 

Still, that has nothing to do with the fact that we all have the ability to use the PM function. If you don't want your comments to be commented upon on, then don't post in a public forum.

 

 

If haven't seen anyone else feel the need to give permission as to when we can, or cannot comment on our comments.

 

And, by the way, I didn't post anything 'cos I had nothing to say until you started getting all shirty.

You are welcome to your opinion, and I am welcome to not want to hear it.

 

Hopefully the OP got something useful out of the _on topic_ part of this thread. I'm done here.

[Lucius]

Re: Puzzled

 

Killer Shrike:

 

Your behavior in this thread has not been like you, and I am not sure what to make of it. Outsider said nothing as far as I saw that any reasonable person could take offense to; I am sure I am not the only one who wonders why you seem to be taking things personally.

 

This is not the Killer Shrike I am used to seeing.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is chewing it over carefully, trying to extract some understanding.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Desolid and Strength

 

Whats interesting to me about the Turbofist build isn't the Aff. Phys World aspect, but that anyone would think the '+3 Hearing roll' limitation was worth -1/4 on the EC. This basically meaningless limit saved the character around 40 points. The power level of the character is obviously campaign specific, but limitation values are pretty generic. When I'm evaluating a limitation I like to look at how many sessions worth of experience the character is saving before I allow it.

 

Aff. Phys. World is definitely worth a stop sign, and it can become unbalanced very quickly. It can be a cool effect though, and fun as long as it's properly moderated.