Entangle

[Sundansyr]

One of my players is a mentalist and was wanting to construct an entangle v/ ECV, but I could not figure out how to do that since the entagle would have no body for the target to affect.

 

How would that function? Or would it be a suppress v/ movment based on ECV?

[Comic]

Re: Entangle

 

5R, p169. - Mental Paralysis.

 

Treat target's Ego like Str, and Mental attacks (any BOECV) like EB's for the purpose of breakout. Physical attacks do no damage.

[Checkmate]

Re: Entangle

 

I don't know if this is a change or what, but in Hero Designer in order to do this, you have to buy Entangle BOECV +1, Takes no Damage vs Attack +1/2, and Works against EGO not STR +1/2 (I think it's +1/2, not at home so I can't check it).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Entangle

 

Checkmate is correct; it's an Entangle (with normal DEF & BODY) that Takes no Damage and is BOECV. See Comic's notes. You can also do a search for my d20 spell conversion thread, Wizard Spells, level 2 or 3 should have Hold Person, which is the same core effect you're looking for.

[Outsider]

Re: Entangle

 

Can one Haymaker their EGO for purposes of breaking Mental Paralysis?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Entangle

 

IIRC, you can Haymaker Damn Near Everything.

[Alibear]

Re: Entangle

 

Remove 'Damn Near' and you're correct.

 

You can haymaker any attack.

[Alibear]

Re: Entangle

 

Remove 'Damn Near' and you're correct.

 

You can haymaker any attack.

 

A breakout roll isn't an attack though. Not if I'm GMing anyway.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Entangle

 

A breakout roll isn't an attack though. Not if I'm GMing anyway.

 

Nah, I know there's something you can't Haymaker, but I don't remember what it is. NNDs possibly? I have to look it up again, dagnabbit.

[Outsider]

Re: Entangle

 

It isnt exactly a breakout roll, though. Breakout rolls in reference to mental attacks are 9+(EGO/5). This is an EGO/5 D6 Roll where one counts 'BODY' do determine damage to the Mental Paralysis. EGO is standing in for STR using STR mechanics. Hence my question

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Entangle

 

It isnt exactly a breakout roll' date=' though. Breakout rolls in reference to mental attacks are 9+(EGO/5). This is an EGO/5 D6 Roll where one counts 'BODY' do determine damage to the Mental Paralysis. EGO is standing in for STR using STR mechanics. Hence my question [/quote']

 

Hmm. It's kind of in a grey zone. There's no attack roll involved, even though you are definitely exerting effort. On the other paw, there's no real downside to making the hay that I can think of, other than the extra time (can your DCV drop below zero in 5th?), so you might not be able to by virtue of the 'suffer no drawbacks, recieve no benefits' clause.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Entangle

 

You can haymaker your way out of entangles. You can haymaker ego based attacks. Probably.

 

Could a character use a Haymaker when trying to escape from an Entangle or Grab?

With the GM’s permission, yes. In this case the character does not get any “free” actions no matter how many BODY damage he does to break out.

 

Can a character Haymaker an Entangle, and if so, what are the effects?

Yes, characters can Haymaker Entangles; the effect is to add +2d6 of BODY but no DEF.

 

 

OR

 

Can a character Haymaker his STR to escape from an Entangle?

Well, ultimately the question of whether a character can Haymaker an attempt to break out of an Entangle is up to the GM, but as a default it shouldn’t be allowed. The justification for a Haymaker is that the character’s willing to expose himself to all sorts of potential difficulties — reduced OCV and DCV, extra Segment, target may move and spoil attack, and so forth — in exchange for the possibility of doing more damage. Those difficulties are much less significant, even non-existent, when it comes to breaking out of an Entangle, so it’s not really fair or balanced to allow it.

 

If the GM allows this, the character gets no “free” actions no matter how many BODY damage he does to break out.

 

 

So it is allowed but not fair and balanced to allow it. Or something.

 

And just for fun:

 

If a character Haymakers a Mental Power, does this reduce his DCV as normal, or his DECV, or both?

His DCV.

 

All praise the holy balance

[BNakagawa]

Re: Entangle

 

A word of caution: any entangle based on anything but DCV that is not affected by generic damage is very likely to be comprised nearly completely of cheese.

[JmOz]

Re: Entangle

 

Remove 'Damn Near' and you're correct.

 

You can haymaker any attack.

 

Even a PRE attack...which will not fly in my game, to easy to get OTHER modifiers...

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Entangle

 

Even a PRE attack...which will not fly in my game' date=' to easy to get OTHER modifiers...[/quote']

 

I would imagine the Haymaker-warmup segment to be a very, very deep breath ...

 

*ffffffffffffffffffffffft ...*

"LISTEN UP, YOU PRIMITIVE SCREWHEADS!!!"

[Sundansyr]

Re: Entangle

 

Hurm... okay. This is all taken into account for the concept.

 

As for using EGO to break out... what if the target of the entangle has no mental attacks? Do they just use their raw ego as one uses their normal strength in a regular non-martial punch?

[JmOz]

Re: Entangle

 

Hurm... okay. This is all taken into account for the concept.

 

As for using EGO to break out... what if the target of the entangle has no mental attacks? Do they just use their raw ego as one uses their normal strength in a regular non-martial punch?

 

Basicaly, ego/5 provides your d6's of Ego Punch...

[Vanguard]

Re: Entangle

 

Nah' date=' I know there's [i']something[/i] you can't Haymaker, but I don't remember what it is. NNDs possibly? I have to look it up again, dagnabbit.

 

You can't Haymaker a Martial Art's Maneuver. (Which really depressed me at one point in time. Was looking forward to laying a whole lot of smack down on the bad guy).

[Outsider]

Re: Entangle

 

The main thing I dont like about Mental Paralysis is the balance issue.

 

Consider :

 

Say we're in a campaign where the guideline is that one's attacks should be around 75 AP. An average character will most likely have an EB or KA at or near the guideline. In my experince, at least, pretty much every character will have such an attack.

 

So, when facing 'Glue Guy' (who throws 8D6 Entangles) pretty much everyone will be able to use their attack to break out in a phase or two. The few characters who can't because their attack is on an inappropriate focus, Does No Body, or whatever, can be helped out of the entangle by their friends who do have such an attack. Entangle = 1 or 2 phases gone from the target or his friends.

 

Now along comes 'Mind Muddler' a guy who uses 3D6 Mental Paralysis. Relatively few characters have Ego Blast, so most will be stuck using their EGO/5 in dice to try to break out. And most characters other than mentalists don't buy their EGO up past 15 or so. So anyone with an EGO of 8-12 will do damage to the Paralysis only 1 phase in 36, on average. And anyone with an EGO of 13-17 will do some damage about 1 phase in 3. And the only teammate who can help them get out faster is the one with Ego Blast, if he exists. So Mental Paralysis = 10-100 phases gone from the target, depending on his EGO.

[Outsider]

Re: Entangle

 

You can't Haymaker a Martial Art's Maneuver. (Which really depressed me at one point in time. Was looking forward to laying a whole lot of smack down on the bad guy).

 

Can you use martial maneuvers while Entangled, or would they fall afoul of the same special effect vs special effect restriction that Accessible Foci do?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Entangle

 

Can you use martial maneuvers while Entangled' date=' or would they fall afoul of the same special effect vs special effect restriction that Accessible Foci do?[/quote']

 

I generally don't allow most martial arts maneouvres whilst entangled, on the basis that you need to be able to move reasonably freely to exert your strength in such a way that it causes extra damage; if you can't move your arms you can't punch - simple as that.

 

However, if you have the escape manouvre, I might allow the extra strength to be used to break out of an entangle.

 

This is purely house rule, but it makes perfect sense to me.

 

As for focii, it depends. If you have a Hammer that gives +6d6 HtH attack, I probably wouldn't allow it to add - the damage is related to the ability to move. A 2d6 KA sword I MIGHT allow, albeit possibly at a penalty, because you can use an edge or a point to damage an entangle even if you can't swing the sword, and a laser pistol should be almost unrestricted, even if it is a focus (assuming it is in hand and not holstered.

 

I suppose the rules answer would be that, unless the power or ability is 'restrainable' then you can use it. That's why I often require focii to be bought with that limtiation, at least if they are not accessable.

[Vann the Red]

Re: Entangle

 

The main thing I dont like about Mental Paralysis is the balance issue.

 

Consider :

 

Say we're in a campaign where the guideline is that one's attacks should be around 75 AP. An average character will most likely have an EB or KA at or near the guideline. In my experince, at least, pretty much every character will have such an attack.

 

So, when facing 'Glue Guy' (who throws 8D6 Entangles) pretty much everyone will be able to use their attack to break out in a phase or two. The few characters who can't because their attack is on an inappropriate focus, Does No Body, or whatever, can be helped out of the entangle by their friends who do have such an attack. Entangle = 1 or 2 phases gone from the target or his friends.

 

Now along comes 'Mind Muddler' a guy who uses 3D6 Mental Paralysis. Relatively few characters have Ego Blast, so most will be stuck using their EGO/5 in dice to try to break out. And most characters other than mentalists don't buy their EGO up past 15 or so. So anyone with an EGO of 8-12 will do damage to the Paralysis only 1 phase in 36, on average. And anyone with an EGO of 13-17 will do some damage about 1 phase in 3. And the only teammate who can help them get out faster is the one with Ego Blast, if he exists. So Mental Paralysis = 10-100 phases gone from the target, depending on his EGO.

 

Excellent point. Consider yourself repped. This may be a bit of a copout answer, but that's where GM's discretion comes into play. If the GM allowed that, it would be unbalancing. Unless you have a friendly neighborhood mentalist who could be counted on to break you out, of course.

 

VtR

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Entangle

 

You can't Haymaker a Martial Art's Maneuver. (Which really depressed me at one point in time. Was looking forward to laying a whole lot of smack down on the bad guy).

 

AHA! That's right! You can't Haymaker a Roundhouse! I knew it was Damn Near Everything. Whew. Thank you! When I can reload my assault rifle, I'll drill you full of holes so fast it'll make your... I mean. *cough* Rep you. I'll fill you full of rep. Yes.

 

 

 

 

What? I'm the Master Chief on this board. I can shoot who I want.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Entangle

 

The main thing I dont like about Mental Paralysis is the balance issue.

 

Consider :

 

Say we're in a campaign where the guideline is that one's attacks should be around 75 AP. An average character will most likely have an EB or KA at or near the guideline. In my experince, at least, pretty much every character will have such an attack.

 

So, when facing 'Glue Guy' (who throws 8D6 Entangles) pretty much everyone will be able to use their attack to break out in a phase or two. The few characters who can't because their attack is on an inappropriate focus, Does No Body, or whatever, can be helped out of the entangle by their friends who do have such an attack. Entangle = 1 or 2 phases gone from the target or his friends.

 

Now along comes 'Mind Muddler' a guy who uses 3D6 Mental Paralysis. Relatively few characters have Ego Blast, so most will be stuck using their EGO/5 in dice to try to break out. And most characters other than mentalists don't buy their EGO up past 15 or so. So anyone with an EGO of 8-12 will do damage to the Paralysis only 1 phase in 36, on average. And anyone with an EGO of 13-17 will do some damage about 1 phase in 3. And the only teammate who can help them get out faster is the one with Ego Blast, if he exists. So Mental Paralysis = 10-100 phases gone from the target, depending on his EGO.

 

He's right, this really is an excellent point, but that's the whole "point" of having so many varieties of attacks, counters, and so on. A little MDef would go a long way here, but you're right -- odds of someone having it are really, really low.

[Outsider]

Re: Entangle

 

Mdef wouldnt help against a mental paralysis, just like Pdef doesnt help against a regular entangle. The character would need a mental or BOECV attack.