Adding a special effect

[CTaylor]

We all know how to make an attack able to change special effects (Variable Special Effect advantage). How do you add a special effect to an attack? Does it cost points, is it free, is it an adder, an advantage?

 

EXAMPLE

What I mean is this, not a sword that can become cold or fire, but a sword that does physical damage, which then has "magic" added to the special effects.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Adding a special effect

 

Three approaches:

 

Special Effects have no point effect, meaning you can stack them on willy nilly - you could have a Magic Cold Sword with three SFX "Magic," "Ice," and "Pointy Metal Object" - but it all does the same kind of damage, PD or ED (usually PD if it's a sword).

 

"Partially Limited Power" approach, still no real point effect, but you divide the dice up amongst the energy types and treat them all as one attack. A bit of a handwave really but you can have a Magic Sword that does 1D6 Physical and 1D6 Energy Damage. This is all at GMs discretion as there are no rules that cover the idea of one attack working against multiple defenses easily.

 

Ultimate Energy Projector introduced a Multiple Special Effects Advantage, this introduces the idea that SFX have a point impact, the more SFX you add in the more the Power is worth, and thus an Advantage to create a Power with 2 or more SFX. This works best when coupled with games that have many Characters with Vulnerabilities or the SFX Interaction Rules from Chapter Two of Ultimate Energy Projector. Otherwise the point cost may be greater than its utility.

[CTaylor]

Re: Adding a special effect

 

Well what I had 8in mind was an existing item that has a special effect being given a new one by some effect such as a magical spell. An enchantment, or a martial arts ability that makes your fists gain a special effect temporarily.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Adding a special effect

 

Well what I had 8in mind was an existing item that has a special effect being given a new one by some effect such as a magical spell. An enchantment' date=' or a martial arts ability that makes your fists gain a special effect temporarily.[/quote']

 

 

Gamewise this is essentially a cosmetic transform. Such a cosmetic change might have utility as some SFX can bypass limited defences (for example) or block NND attacks but that is really what you are talking about.

 

Doc

[CTaylor]

Re: Adding a special effect

 

That's kind of permanent for a martial arts stance or a spell.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Adding a special effect

 

That's kind of permanent for a martial arts stance or a spell.

 

Not necessarily. The reversal condition of the Transform can be anything the player and GM agree is appropriate, including a very brief passage of time, end of a combat, etc.

 

I wrote up some characters recently for Digital Hero which blended magic and technology, so the Special Effects of their attacks covered both when interacting with Vulnerabilities or Limited Defenses. OTOH attacks by other characters that affected either magic or technology (Adjustment Powers, Dispel, Limited Attacks and the like) would affect these creatures equally. I figured the benefits and drawbacks more or less balanced each other, so I didn't try to account for the dual SFX with Advantages on the Powers or Disadvantages for the characters.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Adding a special effect

 

If you really want to build a Power spell construct to account for the granting of additional SFX without using Transform, my first thought would be to make the Multiple Special Effects Advantage cited by ghost-angel into a Naked Advantage UAA.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Adding a special effect

 

Well what I had 8in mind was an existing item that has a special effect being given a new one by some effect such as a magical spell. An enchantment' date=' or a martial arts ability that makes your fists gain a special effect temporarily.[/quote']

 

If you want something that grants the ability to change or alter something elses Special Effect what you have is Variable Special Effect Naked Advantage; Usable By Other with differing modifiers; SFX Chosen at time of application + Other Spell Aspects assuming it's a spell of some nature.

[CTaylor]

Re: Adding a special effect

 

Again: the idea is not to change the special effect, but to temporarily add a new special effect that is in addition to an existing one. This seems to me like it's best served as an adder, 5-10 points at most.

[Fenixcrest]

Re: Adding a special effect

 

Again: the idea is not to change the special effect' date=' but to temporarily add a new special effect that is in addition to an existing one. This seems to me like it's best served as an adder, 5-10 points at most.[/quote']

 

That definitely sounds like a Cosmetic transform, Heals over time. Just say that the amount rolled on the dice is the BODY to heal over, maybe give it limitations so it heals at an accelerated rate. Transform: Sword into Sword that also counts as Magic.

 

EDIT: Maybe a minor transform, actually. I'd do cosmetic, but some GMs, especially if monsters that are resistant to non-magic are meant to be super dangerous, might go with minor.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Adding a special effect

 

That's kind of permanent for a martial arts stance or a spell.

 

Nothing in the Hero System is dictated to you as far as effects go - you are simply looking to find the game mechanic that best provides some structure beneath that special effect.

 

Now if you want something that adds to the current character then you are looking at aid or transform, and if the addition is not already present in the chaeracter then you really are looking at transform.

 

There is nothing in Transform that it permanent - in fact it is difficult to permanently add anything - the trasform will either heal or disappear when pre-set conditions are met (that could be a time period of the GM agrees it).

 

Doc

[Alibear]

Re: Adding a special effect

 

To make a real sword magical, in my fantasy campaign, all you have to do is buy off the 'Real' limitation (and be able to make magic items)

 

This isn't what you're talking about so I'll shut up now.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Adding a special effect

 

Again: the idea is not to change the special effect' date=' but to temporarily add a new special effect that is in addition to an existing one. This seems to me like it's best served as an adder, 5-10 points at most.[/quote']

 

Use the Multiple Special Effects Advantage as a Naked Advantage.

 

Transform is just clunky IMO.

[CTaylor]

Re: Adding a special effect

 

Yeah I'm not happy with using transform, it's meant to be a long-term effect, and you can't build a transform on yourself to make your fists do an additional special effect.

 

I'm tempted to just call it a special effect, except that its beneficial to add a different one. For example some creatures are immune to non-magical attacks (or at least highly resistant to them). Adding magic to your fists makes you hit harder.

 

At the same time, it can't cost more than 5 points because I can just buy a D6 extra damage and call it magical, thus adding magic to the special effects of the attack.

 

I'm gonna just call it a 5 point adder and be done with it.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Adding a special effect

 

At the same time' date=' it can't cost more than 5 points because I can just buy a D6 extra damage and call it magical, thus adding magic to the special effects of the attack.[/quote']

 

As a GM looking at such a construct seeking to negate an NPC's Desolid (for example) with that, I would allow 1D6 to go through unhindered and also allow any of the rest of the damage that penetrated the defences normally to add to it for the purposes of stunning etc, but I would not allow the full attack to bypass the defence.

 

Adding magic to the rest of the attack could, therefore, quite reasonably cost more than 5 points. Not that I'm arguing it should but it could.

 

 

 

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Adding a special effect

 

Use the Multiple Special Effects Advantage as a Naked Advantage.

 

Transform is just clunky IMO.

 

I can see the advantage of the Multiple special effects, usable by others (I hadn't thought of the personal applications - though that was not included in the initial request).

 

If it were simply granting powers then I'm not sure that transform is any more mechanically clunky than a naked advantage - which might not provide more than a partial special effect for a power too large for it to accomodate.

 

I suppose the textual write-up (as opposed to the mechanical) for either would be similar up to the point of changing special effects on personal attacks - which the multiple SFX would accomodate far more easily.

 

 

Doc

[CTaylor]

Re: Adding a special effect

 

As a GM looking at such a construct seeking to negate an NPC's Desolid (for example) with that, I would allow 1D6 to go through unhindered and also allow any of the rest of the damage that penetrated the defences normally to add to it for the purposes of stunning etc, but I would not allow the full attack to bypass the defence.

 

Which actually highlights the need for some mechanic or rule to specify changing special effects or adding new ones entirely. What does it take to add a new special effect, does adding dice to an attack make all of the attack that new special effect, or just the dice you added? How are they really an addition to your previous damage if they stand alone against different defenses?

[sbarron]

Re: Adding a special effect

 

Which actually highlights the need for some mechanic or rule to specify changing special effects or adding new ones entirely. What does it take to add a new special effect' date=' does adding dice to an attack make all of the attack that new special effect, or just the dice you added? How are they really an addition to your previous damage if they stand alone against different defenses?[/quote']How much impact will changing or adding the special effect have on the damage the power in question does in play?

 

If a lot of characters/monsters are running around with "75% damage reduction, not vs. magic," then adding "magic" as a special effect is a big deal. It should be expensive. If there are not any, then it should be free. The "magic" special effect has no mechanical impact on the game.

 

This is probably why there hadn't been a specific cost associated with this idea until the Ultimate EPer. It's so campaign specific that its hard to quantify without knowing the campaign its being used in.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Adding a special effect

 

How are they really an addition to your previous damage if they stand alone against different defenses?

 

They are an addition in the sense that, in those instances where SFX are not important, all the dice stack for the purpose of overcoming defences and causing stunning.

[CTaylor]

Re: Adding a special effect

 

They are an addition in the sense that' date=' in those instances where SFX are not important, all the dice stack for the purpose of overcoming defences and causing stunning.[/quote']

 

Except if you define the damage as being split up based on the defenses, then you can't add up the dice for stunning, can you? I mean if you say these dice are energy and these dice are physical, then they are separate attacks, each facing their own defenses (and thus doing much less than a single attack of that many dice and negating the entire point of changing the special effect).

 

See, what I'm saying is if you say 'well then only 1D6 hits him because he's desolid' then you're splitting up the attack into two different ones. I suppose you could treat it like some funky reduced penetration attack, with the stun adding up against CON despite being separated, but that's kind of pushing the rules a bit.

 

How much impact will changing or adding the special effect have on the damage the power in question does in play?

 

Well that sounds like an argument for a sliding scale, not a campaign-specific rule. I mean, "vs magic" might be rare, but "vs fire" might not be in the same campaign. Generally speaking in Hero games that's handled by frequency modifications to cost. such as

 

Rare: 3 points

Uncommon: 5 points

Common: 7 points

Very Common: 10 points

 

or some such cost structure.

[sbarron]

Re: Adding a special effect

 

Well that sounds like an argument for a sliding scale, not a campaign-specific rule. I mean, "vs magic" might be rare, but "vs fire" might not be in the same campaign. Generally speaking in Hero games that's handled by frequency modifications to cost. such as

 

Rare: 3 points

Uncommon: 5 points

Common: 7 points

Very Common: 10 points

 

or some such cost structure.

I guess I was asking you specifically for the game you had in mind.

 

Magic, unlike fire, doesn't intrinsically do damage in all games. That's why I think this is difficult to cost out in HERO.

 

If you put a layer of fire around your fist, then you're doing mostly physical damage, with a little energy damage thrown in. This could be done easily, with fire damage, UBO.

 

You could also say that the fist actually turns into fire, which means it would do energy damage exclusively. This is harder, because its technically a transform. But at worst, I'd say you'd have to buy the fire attack up the the DC of a punch, UBO. Or you could stick a price on this power that you think is appropriate, like you've mentioned in a previous post. That's definitely what I'd do if this were my game.

 

However, either of these are relatively easily modeled in HERO, because the special effect only defines the type of damage you're going to do. But with granting a "magic" special effect, there is no obvious result. Its totally campaign specific. You have to define it as something, then you can figure out how to model and cost it.

 

Does magic act like fire, in that all creatures are burned by its touch? Are there special defenses that only magic can pierce? Define what magic does, and then I think it'll be more clear how to best model and cost it in HERO. That's why its campaign specific.

[CTaylor]

Re: Adding a special effect

 

Huh, so how do you handle the advantage "Variable Special Effects" do you believe that needs rebuilding or can't be worked out unless the campaign is known? It seems to me that you're arguing no rules can be decided without being campaign specific to the point of negating any writeups. Maybe I'm misreading you.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Adding a special effect

 

CTaylor, if you haven't already I strongly suggest picking up Ultimate Energy Projector. A lot of this discussion is in that book.

[sbarron]

Re: Adding a special effect

 

Huh' date=' so how do you handle the advantage "Variable Special Effects" do you believe that needs rebuilding or can't be worked out unless the campaign is known? It seems to me that you're arguing no rules can be decided without being campaign specific to the point of negating any writeups. Maybe I'm misreading you.[/quote']Generally, I do think everything must be campaign specific in order to be correctly priced. That doesn't mean that you can't have a base number to start the ball rolling. And a base number built around generally universal stuff like "cold" or "fire" are available for variable special effect. But should a campaign set at the bottom of the ocean have a power with variable special effect for "fire" cost the same as a campaign set in a 16th century Japan paper village? I don't think it should.

 

So generally, you're reading me right about campaign specifics potentially negating any rule write-ups. However, you can certainly create rules within a given setting. Which is why I asked you about what it means to be "magic" in the game you're talking about.

 

If you're just talking about a general, non-campaign specific rule, the closest thing you're probably going to get is the multiple special effect Ghost Angel keeps pitching. Do you not think that will fit the bill for you?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Adding a special effect

 

Except if you define the damage as being split up based on the defenses' date=' then you [i']can't[/i] add up the dice for stunning, can you? I mean if you say these dice are energy and these dice are physical, then they are separate attacks, each facing their own defenses (and thus doing much less than a single attack of that many dice and negating the entire point of changing the special effect).

 

Well, changing the special effect and changing which defence an attack works against are completely different things. This is quite fundamental to the system. The player decides which defence he thinks any particualr attack should work against. If he chooses PD or ED then there are no alterations to the cost of the power. If he chooses a more exotic (less common defence) such as mental defence or flash defence then he pays a premium. If he decides that defences do not normally work against his attack except in special circumstances (NND) then he pays a premium. if he decides that the larger of PD or ED will count then he'd get a cost break and if he decided it worked against the combined PD and ED then that cost break would be even larger.

 

That has very little to do with deciding on special effects for the power.

 

In a core Hero rules campaign the special effects should have little impact on the mechanics and be apparent simply in the description of the action (which is not to say they are unimportant - SFX are superheroes and have a big influence on the impact of magic in the game). Small pros and cons can be requested and granted/inflicted by the GM on the basis of SFX.

 

The ultimate Energy Projector provides a framework to allow SFX a much greater role in the game and provides guidelines on costs for those. However. as has been pointed out - the relative costs of SFX will vary from game to game and genre to genre. That is upfront work for the GM.

 

In your example the changing/adding SFX for an attack has a price because it is understood that some defences will be bought as weaker against certain SFX and that some powers (such as desolid) do not count against certain SFX. Thus there has to be a cost associated with that to reflect the added utility.

 

I gave you the example of a an NPC who had bought their desolid as vulnerable to fire. So perhaps it is a cold elemental - fists, blades and other weapons slide through the creature with no impact while the cold reaches out and drinks the warmth of its opponents bodies. However it has been noticed that it flinches from the torches. Your character calls out a spell that coats his sword in a wreath of flames and attacks.

 

Now. Assume the sword has been bought as a 6D6 EB (bladed weapon SFX) counts against PD.

 

If that wreath of flames is bought by adding +1D6 EB to sword attack (flames SFX) counts against PD then against a normal opponent it would be a 7D6 attack counting against PD. That does not stretch the rules at all. it would also mean that the 6D6 do not have the flame SFX and would not affect the cold elemental but would deal 1D6 damage to it as its desolid does not count against that flame SFX die of damage.

 

If the wreath of flames has been bought as (variable SFX) then the sword would take on the flame SFX and against a normal opponent would continue to deal 6D6 against PD (can't remember the rules on this, I can see it counting against ED - he has paid extra for it after all) and in this case would also deal 6D6 to the cold elemental as all 6D6 go through the desolid defence.

 

I would not allow the simple purchase of an extra D6 with different SFX to get round the cost of purchasing variable SFX for the existing attack.

 

Doc