Combat Options

[CTaylor]

There's a couple things I let players do in combat that shift the combat a bit to fit better how I understand hand to hand fighting to work:

 

1 POWER vs PRECISION

An attacking character can sacrifice damage to add to their chance to hit. For each damage class their weapon is reduced by, they can add 1 OCV to the attack. This is useful against very agile, difficult to harm creatures who tend to be less durable. It represents a carefully placed, weaker attack. The third option is to choose power.

 

Or, an attacking character can sacrifice 2 OCV to add 1 damage class to their attack. This is useful against difficult to harm monsters who typically are easier to hit. This represents an all out attack that is not as precise or skillful.

 

2 SPEED VS SKILL

An attacking character can also sacrifice either OCV or damage to attack sooner. For each damage class or OCV their attack is reduced by, they can attack in the phase one dexterity higher on the list. Thus, if you abandon 1 OCV and 1 Damage Class in your attack, you can attack as if you are 2 dexterity higher than normal. You must decide this before the dexterity you are trying to move up to comes up.

 

Any of these options can only be taken before the attack roll is made.

 

Any thoughts?

[schir1964]

Re: Combat Options

 

[thread=42607]New Mechanic Ideas[/thread]

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Arkham]

Re: Combat Options

 

There's a couple things I let players do in combat that shift the combat a bit to fit better how I understand hand to hand fighting to work:

 

1 POWER vs PRECISION

An attacking character can sacrifice damage to add to their chance to hit. For each damage class their weapon is reduced by, they can add 1 OCV to the attack. This is useful against very agile, difficult to harm creatures who tend to be less durable. It represents a carefully placed, weaker attack. The third option is to choose power.

 

Or, an attacking character can sacrifice 2 OCV to add 1 damage class to their attack. This is useful against difficult to harm monsters who typically are easier to hit. This represents an all out attack that is not as precise or skillful.

 

2 SPEED VS SKILL

An attacking character can also sacrifice either OCV or damage to attack sooner. For each damage class or OCV their attack is reduced by, they can attack in the phase one dexterity higher on the list. Thus, if you abandon 1 OCV and 1 Damage Class in your attack, you can attack as if you are 2 dexterity higher than normal. You must decide this before the dexterity you are trying to move up to comes up.

 

Any of these options can only be taken before the attack roll is made.

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

1) You can already do this. Buy Combat Skill Levels. Use them for OCV, or use 2 for 1 Damage Class.

 

2) Hurry optional maneuver, or Hip Shot optional maneuver. Trade OCV for going higher in the initiative count. either 1 OCV for 1 Dex, or 2 OCV for 1d6 Dex

[schir1964]

Re: Combat Options

 

1) You can already do this. Buy Combat Skill Levels. Use them for OCV, or use 2 for 1 Damage Class.

While you can do this, there is currently no rule that allows you to take your Damage Classes of a standard attack and convert them into OCV bonuses.

 

I think this is what he had in mind, to create a default combat rule where you can reduce the Damage Class of an attack to gain OCV, or be able to reduce your Base OCV in order to boost your Damage Class.

 

Now whether this would be balanced or not is another question, but it is worthy of being an optional rule for those who like that kind of flexibility.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Combat Options

 

While you can do this' date=' there is currently no rule that allows you to take your Damage Classes of a standard attack and convert them into OCV bonuses.[/quote']

 

Unless you have a spreadable EB?

 

Now whether this would be balanced or not is another question' date=' but it is worthy of being an optional rule for those who like that kind of flexibility.[/quote']

 

Always worked for the EB, dont think that it'd be any less workable for other types of attack.

 

 

Doc

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Combat Options

 

While you can do this, there is currently no rule that allows you to take your Damage Classes of a standard attack and convert them into OCV bonuses.

 

I think this is what he had in mind, to create a default combat rule where you can reduce the Damage Class of an attack to gain OCV, or be able to reduce your Base OCV in order to boost your Damage Class.

 

Now whether this would be balanced or not is another question, but it is worthy of being an optional rule for those who like that kind of flexibility.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

I think a certain amount of inflexibility is required to model certain situations.

 

Take the sword duel at the end of the movie Rob Roy as an example.

 

One character has a huge battlefield sword (a Claymore I believe) and the other character has a fencing blade (a Rapier I think). The speed of the latter totally outclasses the power of the former. Trading DC's for OCV would have negated this and made no sense.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Combat Options

 

Personally I would let more or less any attack be 'spread' if the player could justify it, but I like the 'you can go faster' bit.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Combat Options

 

I think a certain amount of inflexibility is required to model certain situations.

 

Take the sword duel at the end of the movie Rob Roy as an example.

 

One character has a huge battlefield sword (a Claymore I believe) and the other character has a fencing blade (a Rapier I think). The speed of the latter totally outclasses the power of the former. Trading DC's for OCV would have negated this and made no sense.

 

I think this is a role play situation mainly: a claymore , assuming it is a great sword, has a damage rating of 2d6 (and already has +1 OCV), requiring a 17 STR minimum with 2 hands: unless you have above normal maxima strength you can only do 6DCs of damage with it. I don't have stats for a rapier, but assuming it is a short sword, basically, that is 1d6 damage with no OCV bonus, one handed and 10 STR min. you could get that up to 1d6+1 with 17 STR, 1 1/2d6 if you could stretch to 20, but let us assume that the character has the minimum strength, and let us assume that he has the additional points spent on DEX, rather than STR, to suit his style. If we remove the SPD bonus (assuming anotherwise identical spend) that gives us +3 DEX, or +1 OCV, +1 DCV and first attack with 3DCs. In addition we have a hand free, which can be used for a secondary weapon or a shield, both of which can give a DCV bonus.

 

So, Claymore gets (assuming we now both want to do 1d6 damage) +1 OCV and +3 OCV from the reduced DCs: +4 total. Against that, the rapier is +1 OCV and +1 DCV, and whatever bonus you can scrounge from the other hand weapon/shield - a normal small shield (the best you can use with 10 STR) gives +1 DCV.

 

So the characters are now doing the same damage, and the claymore has +2 OCV (after the DCV reductions) and the short sword/rapier has +1 OCV on balance. However, the rapier will get in first and has a good chance of hitting. That could end the fight there and then, although, given the relatively low damage, that would require a lucky damage roll.

 

This is really a product of buying levels/damage through a focus, but the balance is not far off. In the film you mention, the speed of the weapon is important, as are the other skills of the combattants, but that seems to be reflected in Hero even if the proposal is adopted.

 

Of course the Claymorian would probably not do this, but would swing at full power, maybe taking a hit and hoping for a (slightly lucky) hit roll, and be reasonably well assured of a battle ending damage roll.

[Netzilla]

Re: Combat Options

 

There's a couple things I let players do in combat that shift the combat a bit to fit better how I understand hand to hand fighting to work:

 

1 POWER vs PRECISION

An attacking character can sacrifice damage to add to their chance to hit. For each damage class their weapon is reduced by, they can add 1 OCV to the attack. This is useful against very agile, difficult to harm creatures who tend to be less durable. It represents a carefully placed, weaker attack. The third option is to choose power.

 

Basically, you're allowing people to spread HtH attacks. I suppose this might work but could make bricks in a superhero game over-powered. In general it seems to work okay for Energy Blast, but I'd need to play with the numbers to see if bricks don't gain too great an advantage over martial artists. Conceptually, however, I can envision the spreading of an EB (the beam is wider but more diffuse) better than I can someone spreading their fist. See the end of my post for more thoughts on this.

 

Or, an attacking character can sacrifice 2 OCV to add 1 damage class to their attack. This is useful against difficult to harm monsters who typically are easier to hit. This represents an all out attack that is not as precise or skillful.

 

This can already be done using Combat Skill Levels. Sacrifice 2 CSLs for +1 DC.

 

2 SPEED VS SKILL

An attacking character can also sacrifice either OCV or damage to attack sooner. For each damage class or OCV their attack is reduced by, they can attack in the phase one dexterity higher on the list. Thus, if you abandon 1 OCV and 1 Damage Class in your attack, you can attack as if you are 2 dexterity higher than normal. You must decide this before the dexterity you are trying to move up to comes up.

 

I have a house rule that you can sacrifice 2 CSLs for +1 Init. Also, I use a Heroic Action Point-like Luck system (see Pulp Hero) and allow characters to sacrifice points of Luck to "get the drop" on someone.

 

Personally, I like tying all of this (damage v accuracy, skill v speed) to Combat Skill Levels for a few reasons:

1. CSLs are generally considered over-costed and this helps give them some more value.

2. It reflects my personal feelings on combat skill. A power-lifter can hit very hard but would would have a difficult time trading in that power for extra speed or accuracy. However, a trained martial artist can hit just as hard (or harder) but can trade power for speed or accuracy. This seems best reflected by Martial Manuevers and CSLs, both of which reflect training vs raw power.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Combat Options

 

Basically, you're allowing people to spread HtH attacks. I suppose this might work but could make bricks in a superhero game over-powered. In general it seems to work okay for Energy Blast, but I'd need to play with the numbers to see if bricks don't gain too great an advantage over martial artists. Conceptually, however, I can envision the spreading of an EB (the beam is wider but more diffuse) better than I can someone spreading their fist. See the end of my post for more thoughts on this.

.

 

 

I take this point but you can address it like this:

 

1. We assume that the damage a brick can put out is similar toother characters - so if he IS trading speed for strength his strength is below campaign average.

 

2. You can't combine a 'spread' attack with any other manouvre that boosts damage - so you can't haymaker for +4 OCV, or trade velocity damage for a better chance to hit.

 

I take the point also about using skill levels - BUT not everyone defines their characters the same way - for one a high DEX might be a reflection of skill rather than native ability, whereas another might build an ability to hit in combat by 'powering through' defences as extra levels.

[Netzilla]

Re: Combat Options

 

I take this point but you can address it like this:

 

1. We assume that the damage a brick can put out is similar toother characters - so if he IS trading speed for strength his strength is below campaign average.

 

Sure, it works if the brick maintains a similar DC level to the other characters or has a significantly lower starting OCV. That's why I wasn't willing to give a blanket "good" or "bad" right off the bat.

 

2. You can't combine a 'spread' attack with any other manouvre that boosts damage - so you can't haymaker for +4 OCV, or trade velocity damage for a better chance to hit.

 

I wasn't worrying about combining maneuvers. I was only thinking of issues like the 14-16 DC brick vs the rest of the group at 12 DC. Such a brick can sacrifice 2-4 DC for +2-4 OCV and still meet the group's average damage. If that brick starts 2-4 OCV lower than the rest of the group, there should be no problem.

 

I take the point also about using skill levels - BUT not everyone defines their characters the same way - for one a high DEX might be a reflection of skill rather than native ability, whereas another might build an ability to hit in combat by 'powering through' defences as extra levels.

 

Would you allow someone to purchase STR, Cannot be Spread (-1/4) to represent the power-lifter concept?

[Maur]

Re: Combat Options

 

I don't have stats for a rapier' date=' but assuming it is a short sword, basically, that is 1d6 damage with no OCV bonus, one handed and 10 STR min. you could get that up to 1d6+1 with 17 STR, 1 1/2d6 if you could stretch to 20[/quote']

 

Wouldn't it be 2D6-1 not 1 1/2d6 for a character with 20 STR since it is an HKA?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Combat Options

 

Wouldn't it be 2D6-1 not 1 1/2d6 for a character with 20 STR since it is an HKA?

 

Both are correct.

25 active points = 5 Damage Classes

1/2d6=10 active points

1d6-1=10 active points

[archermoo]

Re: Combat Options

 

I think a certain amount of inflexibility is required to model certain situations.

 

Take the sword duel at the end of the movie Rob Roy as an example.

 

One character has a huge battlefield sword (a Claymore I believe) and the other character has a fencing blade (a Rapier I think). The speed of the latter totally outclasses the power of the former. Trading DC's for OCV would have negated this and made no sense.

 

Just as a note, the weapon Rob Roy was using was a Basket Hilted Claymore, which is a one handed broadsword with a basket hilt. A standard Claymore is a 2 handed Great Sword.

[schir1964]

Re: Combat Options

 

Unless you have a spreadable EB?

I'll have to look at those rules again and see what restrictions it has. It's possible that it might fill in the gap.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: Combat Options

 

Both are correct.

25 active points = 5 Damage Classes

1/2d6=10 active points

1d6-1=10 active points

 

But 1d6-1 is a far better bet than 1/2d6, and, IMO, a munchkin way of doing it, no matter how official it is. I like the suggestion in Ultimate Energy Projector (and elsewhere) that enables you to progress through the damage more evenly: an excellent optional rule that takes this point on board.

[CTaylor]

Re: Combat Options

 

Although I don't have enormous experience in hand to hand combat what I have done tells me that I can hit my target almost every time if all I want to do is touch them. Hitting them with some kind of damage is harder, in a sliding scale of accuracy to power. This is overly simplified, of course, but it does seem to work that way in my experience.

 

Sure, Rob Roy could hit the guy with his claymore... but he'd be doing next to no damage or none at all.

 

Martial artists and SPCA guys can help with this but I expect they would concur.

 

For the record I wouldn't use these rules in a superheroic setting, it doesn't fit the genre.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Combat Options

 

The Ultimate Brick discusses Spreading STR. There are a couple of Optional Combat maneuvers in the main rule book that allow you to improve your initiative by taking an OCV penalty.

[CTaylor]

Re: Combat Options

 

Incidentally the fight in Rob Roy was between someone who was capable with his weapon versus a master with theirs. Rob Roy was outmatched, enormously, and no tricks were going to make up that difference of combat skill levels and martial arts maneuvers.

[archermoo]

Re: Combat Options

 

Incidentally the fight in Rob Roy was between someone who was capable with his weapon versus a master with theirs. Rob Roy was outmatched' date=' enormously, and no tricks were going to make up that difference of combat skill levels and martial arts maneuvers.[/quote']

 

Well, none except the one that he used at the end.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Combat Options

 

Incidentally the fight in Rob Roy was between someone who was capable with his weapon versus a master with theirs. Rob Roy was outmatched' date=' enormously, and no tricks were going to make up that difference of combat skill levels and martial arts maneuvers.[/quote']

 

So what do you think would happen if we had 2 identical fighters (in HERO terms at least) with enough STR to meet the minimum for the Claymore and familiarity with both it an a rapier and put them in a duel; 1 armed with the rapier and 1 armed with the claymore?

 

Would it then be a draw?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Combat Options

 

The Ultimate Brick discusses Spreading STR. There are a couple of Optional Combat maneuvers in the main rule book that allow you to improve your initiative by taking an OCV penalty.

 

Back home, got books. The DEX improving Maneuvers are Hurry and Hipshot, both on page 395 of 5ER. The Spreading STR details are on page 89 of the Ultimate Brick.

[CTaylor]

Re: Combat Options

 

There's always a measure of luck and fatigue, poor decisions, and so on in any fight, nobody is ever really "perfectly matched" in any case. That's why we roll dice

[sbarron]

Re: Combat Options

 

So what do you think would happen if we had 2 identical fighters (in HERO terms at least) with enough STR to meet the minimum for the Claymore and familiarity with both it an a rapier and put them in a duel; 1 armed with the rapier and 1 armed with the claymore?

 

Would it then be a draw?

In a Hero game, assuming that the damage that both did was the same (the claymore does more damage, but the rapier's lower STR min allows the PC to get the DC class back with additional STR) it would be a coin flip.

 

In real life, the guy with the rapier would almost always win. The speed of the weapons is a huge factor in real life, that isn't incorporated into HERO.

[CTaylor]

Re: Combat Options

 

Yeah I tried to work up a system that took into account speed, using DEX modifiers on weapons. Very fast weapons had a small one (fists being no modifier) and big slow weapons had a larger one. Basically what weapon you used shifted you in the hit list and thus represented slower attacks. The problem was it was a collossal headache to keep track of when people went as they swapped weapons around. So I dropped it as too complex and of limited use.

 

At the same time, weapon speed is of less utility than online MMOGs make it.