Stats And Hero Purity

[OddHat]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

Stronger people do jump further and hit harder, all else being equal. See any basic book on weight training for sports. Mel Siff, Tudor Bompa, the ACSM manuals, etc, etc.

 

That said, a 274 pound Olympic style weight lifter isn't going to jump further than a 174 pound Olympic long jumper. The legs, lower back, core, and probably mid-back of the track athlete aren't that much weaker than those of the weight lifter, and the 274 pound weight lifter is moving much more weight through the air. Bodybuilders and Powerlifters muddy the water further, as neither work as much as the jumper on explosive strength. The elite track athlete, OTOH, is doing many of the same Olympic style lifts as the Olympic Lifter.

 

Bruce Lee could hit very hard and very accurately; had he added 50 pounds of muscle and bone, with the right training routine, he'd have hit even harder. Physics doesn't give a fart about fandom. Of course he would have out-punched a weight lifter of equal weight and similar body composition without martial training; skill is part of strength, and learning how to optimally perform one movement (say a Clean) does not mean knowing how to optimally perform another (say a punch). This is an area HERO models fairly well, with MA and DCs adding to Strength damage, in much the same way that practicing optimal movement with a given attack in the real world adds to the impact a fighter can generate.

 

Strength itself is tricky to define or tie down; Strength-Endurance, Limit Strength, Support Strength, Explosive Strength, strength divided by bodypart, the jargon gets thicker the more you look into the issue. These all vary by diet, the health and rest state of the athlete, type of training performed by the athlete, training phase, etc.

 

In the end, Hero is a game system. Characteristics are an abstraction that lump together a bunch of traits that fictional characters display, in a way that's useful for players and GMs when designing characters. Not many players are going to design a "Strong" character who can't throw a punch; there's little reason to overcomplicate the game by separating STR from Damage, let alone trying to accurately simulate real world Strength.

 

And as a side note, I don't see many gamers who've been playing Champions / Hero System for 25+ years being all that happy about giving up characteristics. For a lot of them, it's part of what makes Hero "Hero"; turn it into a purely generic game with only "Attack", "Defend", "Sense" and "Move" plus modifiers, no skills, and no characteristics, and while it may be a playable new game, it won't be Hero system anymore.

[OddHat]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

I do generally agree with those who feel that it would be most consistant with the design philosophy of Hero to get rid of characteristics.

 

It makes sense to me that you'd simulate "strength" by getting the proper powers (Lift, Leaping, HTH Attack, Armor, etc). Rather than having a "strength" package built into the system.

 

From a philosophy point of view, I agree.

 

From a playability point of view for Hero, I think it's a bad idea, for the reasons stated above.

[OddHat]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

It makes sense that someone with higher STR should be able to leap further, but long jumpers and high jumpers aren't weight lifters or vice versa. The two separate in real life.

 

The above is a inaccurate in modern sports training. Many Olympic jumpers and sprinters spend some of their time training with weights, usually variations on the Snatch and Clean. See any basic text on strength training for sports performance.

[OddHat]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

And as a side note, ballet dancers are in fantastic shape. Great endurance, flexible, good explosive strength. Be nice to them; unless you have some training or are in similarly fantastic shape, pound for pound they can kick the blank out of you.

[CTaylor]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

From a philosophy point of view, I agree.

 

Well that's really where I'm coming from. I'm just looking at how the game works, and these stats are aberrations (there are others in the rules, as I mentioned, but this is the topic). To make the game really streamlined and work the way the toolkit concept is meant, it would make more sense to strip the extra stuff from the stats and make them do the minimum.

 

And being in great shape doesn't necessarily make you a good fighter, it just makes you slightly tougher and able to last longer. That's why Bruce Lee was more dangerous than some linebacker in a fight (for example). You can be really fit and strong and suck at hitting people or avoiding being hit.

 

By the way I don't see a change to stats causing obsolescence of previous characters all that much a problem because each edition has done that to characters from previous editions. Sure, it's a more profound change that affects all characters, but really how many guys have you carried over to the new system with no rebuilds?

 

I don't see it changing because it would upset the fan base too significantly, but it makes an interesting discussion.

[OddHat]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

Well that's really where I'm coming from. I'm just looking at how the game works' date=' and these stats are aberrations (there are others in the rules, as I mentioned, but this is the topic). To make the game really streamlined and work the way the toolkit concept is meant, it would make more sense to strip the extra stuff from the stats and make them do the minimum.[/quote']

 

It would make the game more of a true toolkit. It wouldn't make it more playable. Keeping that balance between playability and "purity" in mind is worthwhile.

 

And being in great shape doesn't necessarily make you a good fighter, it just makes you slightly tougher and able to last longer.

 

Being in great shape makes you much tougher and able to last considerably longer, which in turn makes you a much better fighter. Watch how any serious competitive martial artist trains.

 

That's why Bruce Lee was more dangerous than some linebacker in a fight (for example).

 

No, it isn't. Lee had great skill and natural talent, and was also in great shape (and was fanatical about keeping up his conditioning). Skill without conditioning or strength is not enough.

 

The linebacker is pretty dangerous himself, and would be even more so if he actually were trained in a HtH fighting style. See the History Channel's "Human Weapon" and note how well the ex-football player does in his matches.

 

You can be really fit and strong and suck at hitting people or avoiding being hit.

If you're really fit and strong, you'll hit a lot harder than someone who isn't, and be able to continue fighting longer, which is why martial artists spend so much of their training becoming fit and strong.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

I have to agree with Oddhat completely ... conceptual purity is nice and all, but if it complicates actual play then it's useless for a game system.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

I have to agree with Oddhat completely ... conceptual purity is nice and all' date=' but if it complicates actual play then it's useless for a game system.[/quote']

 

Thirded.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

If something makes a system less playable then it may not be the best thing to introduce (there are one or two other considerations such as genre enhancement that will add to the fun rather than the playability but philosophy is not one I'd advocate).

 

I would dispute the declaration that scrapping stats would lessen the playability of the game. It could depend on the implementation but it would require a certain level of paradigm shift on behalf of existing players.

 

As such it is a risky manouevre to take, almost of a Fuzion level, but I have played in games where stats were not a necessary part of the game and they removed a certain amount of understanding required (no-one had to understand the interplay of stats, skills and powers) and the fixed benchmark of points to abilities (the STR debate etc would effectively disappear).

 

I think it would be an interesting experiment. If I were playing superheroes regularly I would ensure that my next step would be to remove characteristics from the game and to examine the play results - Von D-Man said he was moving in a similar direction.

 

 

As it stands, I will have to waitr and see whether someone else has the mtoviation and opportunity to try this....

 

 

Doc

[OddHat]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

As it stands' date=' I will have to waitr and see whether someone else has the mtoviation and opportunity to try this....[/quote']

 

As I've said elsewhere, my other favorite game system is Risus. No stats, no skills, no powers. You start with a pool of 10 dice (d6 by default, but going up depending on the campaign), divide them among your character's stereotypes, and resolve conflicts by a mix of rolling against your foes and whatever target numbers the GM has set (again depending on the campaign). Simple, plays fast, works fine for everything from comedy to seriously gritty games, with the right group.

 

I'm not saying that you can't have a game without stats; that game, however, wouldn't be Hero.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

Thirded.

 

Fourthed. Any change must consider playability first and systems purity later down the chain. A perfect simulation of reality would be far too complex, unplayable and utterly useless as we don't, at the end of the day, play larger than life heroes to be "realistic".

 

I'm not saying that you can't have a game without stats; that game' date=' however, wouldn't be Hero.[/quote']

 

It certainly wouldn't be "Hero as we know it". Other game systems have made radical changes from edition to edition. Hero has not, if we look at it objectively. I recall looking at 3rd Ed D&D and thinking the magnitude of change was such that it wasn't really D&D any more.

 

Some would say dropping the SPD chart means it's "not really Hero". Others would argue using other sized dice, or even making high rolls, rather than low rolls, for success "isn't really Hero". There's probably a few of us who would suggest dropping figured characteristics, adding Hero points, dropping base stats to 8, dividing the costs of powers by 3, de-linking CV from DEX, or any of the myriad changes suggested from time to time which have a fundamental impact on at least an aspect of the game, would make it "not really Hero". As such, I would suggest whether any change makes the game" not really Hero" is very much a subjective, not an objective, determination.

[CTaylor]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

While I can't argue with the principle that perfection and simulation have to make way for playability, I fail to see how changing how these stats work would affect playability in any real sense. It might frustrate or annoy some players, but the overall system wouldn't be any less playable.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

While I can't argue with the principle that perfection and simulation have to make way for playability' date=' I fail to see how changing how these stats work would affect playability in any real sense. It might frustrate or annoy some players, but the overall system wouldn't be any less playable.[/quote']

 

 

Unless I'm majorly misunderstanding what has been proposed. it would make it an assembly process to make any standard strong, fast etc character rather than simply a stat that reflects their relative ability. I fail to see how that's not less playable. Now if someone wants to make a two fisted hero, all they need to do is make him have a good ST and DEX at the basic. If I had to worry about punch, throw, leap . lift all separately it would be a real pain in the neck. I know I'd never get my players too design characters if they had to worry about forgetting something that logically should be included with a high stat or have to buy powers to simulate strength or quickness for every single character.( OK I know I'm really passionate about the coolness of figured characteristics but my point is still valid)

[CTaylor]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

Oh, sure it would be more work to build a character to certain types, but it would not affect playability any. The game would play the same, it just would take different effort to build exactly the same character.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

See to me character creation is a big part of playability. Sounds like complication just for complications sake. anyway, It'll sure effect playability the first time Doc Strong finds out he forgot his ST for grappling or such.

[BlackSword]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

It would make the game more of a true toolkit. It wouldn't make it more playable. Keeping that balance between playability and "purity" in mind is worthwhile.

See to me character creation is a big part of playability. Sounds like complication just for complications sake. anyway' date=' It'll sure effect playability the first time Doc Strong finds out he forgot his ST for grappling or such.[/quote']

I think it depends on how it would be implemented. One could argue that having each characteristic at a different point value complicates character creation. As well as figured characteristics complicating character creation. There are some attributes that could be gotten rid of and no one would notice. COM could easily be changed from its 0.5 points to being a perk for above average COM or a disad for below average COM. Is it no longer Hero because a very underused Stat is changed from one column to another?

[Maur]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

Or keep figured characteristics as is and a person just sells back what they don't want from the figured. Don't want all that leaping from your str, just sell back those inches. Don't want that PD, sell it off. Of course you have to be careful, as the GM, to watch out for a player selling off a figured enough to raise the base which raises the figured, which gets sold off to raise the base which raises the figured, rinse repeat ad nauseam...

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

I agree completely with CTaylor.

 

I'm not advocating the idea, on the grounds that (as many others have noted) HERO without Characteristics wouldn't be HERO. But I agree that Characteristics (and some other game elements) aren't really in line with the system metarule of Reasoning From Effect.

 

I think it would be an interesting intellectual exercise (that I might undertake if I had the time) to design a game system that was built wholly around Reasoning From Effect from the ground up. And no, before anyone trots out the "Only Four Powers" canard, that doesn't necessarily mean having only four Powers and building everything else with modifiers. It just means boiling all game effects down into their smallest discrete blocks (whether that ultimately leaves you with four effects, forty effects, or four hundred effects), and then building characters and defining special effects by combining those blocks in various configurations.

[CTaylor]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

Well I wouldn't want to get rid of characteristics, I want to strip them down to their most basic components. Strength is how much you can lift, dex is how agile you are, etc. The rest you get from skill levels or powers. Really, it takes someone extraordinary to leap 4" even with a good run, but someone with normal strength (10) can jump that far all day. 20 strength gives you the leaping ability of a gazelle, no human with any amount of strength can leap over 50 feet, running jump or not.

 

Stripping leaping off that and making people buy their jumping up with points would make the game fit the toolkit idea better.

[Warp9]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

Really, it takes someone extraordinary to leap 4" even with a good run, but someone with normal strength (10) can jump that far all day.

 

But it takes muscle to leap. And whether you are moving your own mass, or the mass of a bar-bell, it makes no difference. . . .

 

The exact same sort of muscle that is important for weight lifting, is also important for jumping.

 

 

http://www.athleticquickness.com/page.asp?page_id=20

 

"whereas fast fibers are key to power pursuits such as weight lifting and sprinting"

 

http://www.ironmanlive.com/training/hersports/jason-r.-karp-m.s.-presents-the-inside-story-on-muscles

 

"Fast-twitch B fibers provide the power behind short, high-intensity efforts like sprinting, jumping and weightlifting."

[Alibear]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

What is the world long-jump record? How much Hero Str do you need to be able to do that? Anyway it's not that important to me, just asking.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

What is the world long-jump record? How much Hero Str do you need to be able to do that? Anyway it's not that important to me' date=' just asking.[/quote']The world record is 8.95m, set by Michael Powell in 1991. That would be just a hair under 4.5 hexes in HERO, requiring a 23 STR if Leaping wasn't increased separately.

[Alibear]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

That sounds reasonable to me. 15 str and an inch or two of leaping.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

Or keep figured characteristics as is and a person just sells back what they don't want from the figured. Don't want all that leaping from your str' date=' just sell back those inches. Don't want that PD, sell it off. Of course you have to be careful, as the GM, to watch out for a player selling off a figured enough to raise the base which raises the figured, which gets sold off to raise the base which raises the figured, rinse repeat ad nauseam...[/quote']

 

That can only happen with CON by selling off every Figured Stat that gets some or all of it's value from CON -- i.e. ED, REC, END, and STUN. But the rule of only one Figured Stat can be sold back closes that loophole nicely.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

The world record is 8.95m' date=' set by Michael Powell in 1991. That would be just a hair under 4.5 hexes in HERO, requiring a 23 STR if Leaping wasn't increased separately.[/quote']

 

In heroic campaigns, characters get to add any inches of running that is over 6" to their leaping so that +1" = 1 meter (1/2 hex).

 

And the real-world long jump is not IMO a good comparison to the Hero System running broad jump. After a full-distance broad jump, a character still has his full DCV. I wouldn't say the same about long jumpers at the completion of their jump.