Stats And Hero Purity

[CTaylor]

OK this is just a game system, not anything momentous or meaningful so take this in the spirit it is offered rather than some personal attack or deep and significant pontification. Also, please forgive me if this has been hashed over in the past, there's nothing on the topic recently.

 

When I look at the hero system I see the basic philosophy followed in almost every case is that the rules are a structure upon which concepts are built, rather than concepts that the game is built around. What I mean is that when you buy a power, you buy the mechanic that most closely models the effect and then define what its doing in the game:, rather than buying "fire blast" you buy energy blast and define it as fire. This much is so obvious to Hero players it's got you all yawning probably.

 

Here's the thing, I use the words "almost every case" on purpose, because there are some exceptions, and those exceptions are all characteristics. Characteristics in Hero often seem like carryovers from other game systems rather than a distinctly Hero structure. Take Strength, which is an area of contention for a lot of people (it's too cheap for what it gives, etc).

 

Strength gives not only amount that a character can lift and a skill influencing stat, it gives distance of leaping and damage. Are those abilities that necessarily part of strength or are they parts of specific kinds of strong characters in comics?

 

What I mean is this: lifting heavy things doesn't necessarily make you able to jump a long ways or to hit hard. Think of the lifter exoskeleton from Aliens, Ripley could pick up absurdly heavy things with it, but she could barely move, think of a long distance jumper versus a weight lifter. The burly guy can lift more, but he can leap less than the little slim track star. Bruce Lee could hit like a freight train and for his size he was strong, but he was nothing like Arnold Schwarzenegger.

 

Dexterity is the same way. Just because you are nimble and agile doesn't mean you're necessarily great at combat. Ballet dancers are quite agile but they would not last long in a fight.

 

What I'm saying is this: it seems to me that characteristics should follow the basic Hero model and be not an end result but rather a base structure to build on. Sure, Thor is really strong, but to hit hard he has to buy attack. Sure, your martial artist is spry and agile, but it takes combat skill levels and martial arts to be good in combat.

 

See, I can buy that strong people could leap further, but not that they necessarily leap further, or that they automatically hit harder.

 

Stats should, it seems to me, affect other stats and not grant automatic powers and skills. DEX can help with Speed, Strength can help with PD and Stun, and both should help with the skills based upon them, but that's all.

 

Now, granted, detaching combat value from DEX would make it too expensive (possibly the same thing for Ego), so that makes consistency a problem from old products and characters to any hypothetical new edition. Strength would not have to change cost, but DEX might have to drop to 2 points per DEX because it still controls a lot of good skills, changes your rank in combat, and affects Speed.

 

Hand-to-Hand attack would have to be stripped from Strength and instead of being a 5 points power with a 1/2 limitation that it adds only to strength, but rather a 5 point power with a 1/2 limitation that it has no range.

 

This would be a notable change for Hero Games after all this time, but it would seem to make the game more consistent overall.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

OK this is just a game system, not anything momentous or meaningful so take this in the spirit it is offered rather than some personal attack or deep and significant pontification. Also, please forgive me if this has been hashed over in the past, there's nothing on the topic recently.

 

When I look at the hero system I see the basic philosophy followed in almost every case is that the rules are a structure upon which concepts are built, rather than concepts that the game is built around. What I mean is that when you buy a power, you buy the mechanic that most closely models the effect and then define what its doing in the game:, rather than buying "fire blast" you buy energy blast and define it as fire. This much is so obvious to Hero players it's got you all yawning probably.

 

Here's the thing, I use the words "almost every case" on purpose, because there are some exceptions, and those exceptions are all characteristics. Characteristics in Hero often seem like carryovers from other game systems rather than a distinctly Hero structure. Take Strength, which is an area of contention for a lot of people (it's too cheap for what it gives, etc).

 

Strength gives not only amount that a character can lift and a skill influencing stat, it gives distance of leaping and damage. Are those abilities that necessarily part of strength or are they parts of specific kinds of strong characters in comics?

 

I think we expect a strong character to do damage based on STR. The Ripley example seems uncommon enough to be appropriately simulated by Limited STR, by the Vehicle rules in a slow SPD/DEX vehicle rules or some other infrequently encountered construct. Bruce Lee clearly has martial arts.

 

To the issue of leaping, I agree.

 

Dexterity is the same way. Just because you are nimble and agile doesn't mean you're necessarily great at combat. Ballet dancers are quite agile but they would not last long in a fight.

 

I think you can find fairly regular comments that there is no reason that Rogue with good climbing, lockpicking and sleight of hand skills (ie high DEX) should have a great DCV or, especially, OCV. On the other hand, doesn't hand-eye co-ordination benefit lockpicking, sleight of hand, and aiming a weapon?

 

Stats should, it seems to me, affect other stats and not grant automatic powers and skills. DEX can help with Speed, Strength can help with PD and Stun, and both should help with the skills based upon them, but that's all.

 

Now, granted, detaching combat value from DEX would make it too expensive (possibly the same thing for Ego), so that makes consistency a problem from old products and characters to any hypothetical new edition. Strength would not have to change cost, but DEX might have to drop to 2 points per DEX because it still controls a lot of good skills, changes your rank in combat, and affects Speed.

 

I find it interesting that you want to remove damage from STR for systems purity, but not derived stats such as PD. Does it follow that everyone who is strong logically is also resistant to physical harm, and has greater stamina (REC and STUN)? Must everyone with good hand-eye co-ordination and agility (DEX) also have enhanced reaction time (SPD)? To me, the figured characteristics are at least as much an issue here as CV, or even leaping.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

Two of the Ultimate series of books (Brick and Speedster and possibly others too) offer several optional rules addressing many of your points.

 

A common point of contention in HERO is where to draw the line separating what is the 'default' of any particular ability and its 'limited' version.

 

A related example

How do you deal with Turning Undead in a Fantasy setting? Are 'Clerics' required to buy the ability or are Undead required to take a Limitation and/or Disadvantage?

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

Interesting what you find unrealistic or hard to accept is exactly what really clicks for my believability bone about characteristics. The effects of the stats on actions seems just perfect to me.

[CTaylor]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

No, it's not about unrealistic, it's about the design concept. Strong guys being able to jump a long ways and hit hard is modeling a character (like Hulk) rather than a power (like Energy Blast).

 

Another example of this would be shrinking and the growth momentum punch. This is a holdover from shrinking characters from comic books, not a natural and proper part of the power on its own.

 

I just see these characteristics as being inconsistent with the Hero System, the examples were to try to get people to see that, not argue that the powers attached to them are unrealistic or unbelievable.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

Ultimately the Characteristics have to represent something both conceptual and mechanical.

 

What those are could be up for debate. . .

 

Ultimately what we have in Characteristics is Ease Of Play; Some base functions that just about every genre and every character needs to represent to some level. Lifting Capacity, How hard they punch/kick, how intuitively they aim a gun, hand-eye coordination, ability to process information, general willpower, general ability to project themselves, how resilient they are, etc. . .

 

You could break many of the Hero Characteristics (and other Systems as well) into a very long list of very specific things. But the real question is... While conceptually good on paper does it benefit play to do that? Is the Ease Of Use made more complex, less or unaffected?

 

If STR is divided into Lift Capacity and Normal Damage does it simply look messy to have two stats, or make it easier?

 

DEX could be broken into Combat Ability and Agility. But when 90% of Characters have both does it help the system at all? Probably not IMO.

[JmOz]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

I have long held that the prime characteristics (Especialy the physical ones of Dex, Str, and Con) are actualy a 4th type of Power framework, one that saves more points but at a much greater restriction (that of this is what it gets you period).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

And who said Dextrous Thieves didn't just have a lot of Skill Levels instead of a High DEX?

 

At the crux of some arguements it becomes a question of "are you modeling it correctly based on SFX?"

[schir1964]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

Here is a similar but different [thread=59921]thread[/thread] that discussed some of this.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Alibear]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

Ballet Dancers are hard; don't let the tights fool you.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

Interesting what you find unrealistic or hard to accept is exactly what really clicks for my believability bone about characteristics. The effects of the stats on actions seems just perfect to me.

 

 

I think this is the point: hero si not there to be realistic, it is there to be a toolkit allowing you to build something as realistic OR unrealistic as you like. When Hero tries to impose realism is when it moves away from what may well be its core values.

 

Strength could easily be broken down into its compenent effects (I say 'easily' - there might be some small arguments about cost and implementation ). We could then have a 'STRENGTH TALENT' a preset build, possibly with a small point saving, that emulates 'realistic strength progression' i.e. has all the elements that we would 'expect' for strength present, but which would not be the only way you could build strength. this would mean that if you want to build a character with 'realistic' strength it wuld be no more complex than ti is now, but it would be far easier to realise a more complex concept.

 

At present Hero assumes, for certain things, that if you don;t want the full effect you take a limitation: fine: the problem is that things liek STR and DEX are already such enormously advantageous packages that there is litle room for any fine granularity: if you don;t want 'full effect strength' you are really punished, point wise, for following your concept.

 

Characetristics are not the only example of this 'problem', but they are one of the most obvious examples.

 

In closing I'll just say that I enjoy this sort of discussion but I know nothing will ever change: some concepts are just too deeply imbedded in the subcounscious of the game to ever uproot without massive, and possible fatal, trauma.

[CTaylor]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

I have long held that the prime characteristics (Especialy the physical ones of Dex, Str, and Con) are actualy a 4th type of Power framework, one that saves more points but at a much greater restriction (that of this is what it gets you period).

 

That is a really good point, some great thoughts being posted here.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

I hav thought that stats were an anomaly for some time. It is something I will change in all future games based on Hero that I run.

 

I like the fact that there is a template that says that the average human PC will have CV 3, run 6", be able to detect noise within the human audible range, see in the human visual range of the electromagnetic spectrum, lift about 100kg and manipulate objects unless restrained from so doing.

 

I'm probably missing something along the lines of 20 STUN, 20 END 4 REC and 2 SPD. These are real game related statistics as opposed to the above which are narrative.

 

I would probably default all other characteristic type rolls to 11- (coz that's what most of them are).

 

That is the human template. I'm sure I could come up with some other templates that could be costed at zero as well with different assumption.

 

Anyway - the game stats could be purchased just like stats (not much c an replace them) while anything else this character needs could be bought with powers.

 

Thus when a player looks at the character sheet they get the default template unless something has been changed along with a list of powers and skills - takes one whole section of the character sheet (and a large list of numbers right off the character sheet).

 

 

Doc

[Warp9]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

I think we expect a strong character to do damage based on STR. The Ripley example seems uncommon enough to be appropriately simulated by Limited STR, by the Vehicle rules in a slow SPD/DEX vehicle rules or some other infrequently encountered construct. Bruce Lee clearly has martial arts.

 

To the issue of leaping, I agree.

Force = Mass X Acceleration

 

And thus with a bit of algebra

 

Acceleration = Force / Mass

 

Assuming that we are dealing with characters of a set amount of mass (approx 100 KG), and assuming that strength is not just an upper body thing, then it does make some sense that more strength should result in more ability to leap.

[Warp9]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

I do generally agree with those who feel that it would be most consistant with the design philosophy of Hero to get rid of characteristics.

 

It makes sense to me that you'd simulate "strength" by getting the proper powers (Lift, Leaping, HTH Attack, Armor, etc). Rather than having a "strength" package built into the system.

[Warp9]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

I think this is the point: hero si not there to be realistic, it is there to be a toolkit allowing you to build something as realistic OR unrealistic as you like. When Hero tries to impose realism is when it moves away from what may well be its core values.

 

Good point!

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

I do generally agree with those who feel that it would be most consistant with the design philosophy of Hero to get rid of characteristics.

 

It makes sense to me that you'd simulate "strength" by getting the proper powers (Lift, Leaping, HTH Attack, Armor, etc). Rather than having a "strength" package built into the system.

 

 

I see where you're coming from now but I still think it would be a bad idea and a pain in the neck to design characteristics like that. If HERO where done that way I probably would be running 3 GURPS campaigns now instead of 3 HERO. Purity sometimes just needs to take a back seat IMO.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

Force = Mass X Acceleration

 

And thus with a bit of algebra

 

Acceleration = Force / Mass

 

Assuming that we are dealing with characters of a set amount of mass (approx 100 KG), and assuming that strength is not just an upper body thing, then it does make some sense that more strength should result in more ability to leap.

 

It does make some sense. However, there are enough exceptions that I see the issue as one where the decision might properly be made by the player, with some characters buying the extra leap and others not doing so.

 

It makes sense that someone with higher STR should be able to leap further, but long jumpers and high jumpers aren't weight lifters or vice versa. The two separate in real life. Body configuration is also important. Some small animals (down to insects, even) are very strong for their size and can leap amazing distances in multiples of body length. Others can't leave the ground. A large cat and a small bulldog probably have comparable strength - do bulldogs leap like cats? Running speed has a lot to do with jump lengths, but we don't give people +x" Leap per Y" running - we tell them that, in Hero, the logical connection JUSTIFIES BUYING the extra leaping, but does not GRANTthe extra leaping for free.

 

The real decision comes down to what should be the default should and what should be the exception (a subjective determination). To me, there are adequate examples of stronger creatures not leaping further that removing leaping from the default "high STR" creature makes sense.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

And who said Dextrous Thieves didn't just have a lot of Skill Levels instead of a High DEX?

 

At the crux of some arguements it becomes a question of "are you modeling it correctly based on SFX?"

 

You just did. "Dextrous Thieves" translates literally to "Thieves with High Dexterity". That's not to say the English definition and the Hero definition will match, but intuitively, a Thief with a high Dexterity is the base model for a Dextrous Thief.

 

Further, while it's fine to suggest alternate builds, to me it is as or more important that those builds be priced competitively. Let's look at two "dextrous thieves". They want, for the sake of argument, a 14- base roll for DEX based skills, and an 8 DCV. Dodging and good skills tend to be the expectation of such quick, agile rogues..

 

One buys an 11 DEX (3 points, -1 for Speed bonus = 2) and +3 levels with all Dex-based skills (15 points), and +4 DCV (20 points) a total investment of 36 points.

 

The second buys a 23 DEX (42 points assuming NCM, less 13 Speed bonus = 29 points).

 

A third buys 20 DEX (30 - 10 = 20 points), +1 DCV (5 points) and +1 level w/ DEX skills (5 points) for a total of 30 points.

 

The second character saves 7 points over the first and one point over the second. He gets a bonus to OCV and can use his higher roll for DEX-based skills on multiple skills at the same time, very handy with complementary rolls. He also acts faster in combat. He loses nothing. Which character will have the advantage in most games?

 

It's fine to say "build your character to his SFX", but this imposes an obligation on the system to avoid rewarding characters who either build outside SFX or select the most cost-effective SFX.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

You just did. "Dextrous Thieves" translates literally to "Thieves with High Dexterity". That's not to say the English definition and the Hero definition will match, but intuitively, a Thief with a high Dexterity is the base model for a Dextrous Thief.

 

Further, while it's fine to suggest alternate builds, to me it is as or more important that those builds be priced competitively. Let's look at two "dextrous thieves". They want, for the sake of argument, a 14- base roll for DEX based skills, and an 8 DCV. Dodging and good skills tend to be the expectation of such quick, agile rogues..

 

One buys an 11 DEX (3 points, -1 for Speed bonus = 2) and +3 levels with all Dex-based skills (15 points), and +4 DCV (20 points) a total investment of 36 points.

 

The second buys a 23 DEX (42 points assuming NCM, less 13 Speed bonus = 29 points).

 

A third buys 20 DEX (30 - 10 = 20 points), +1 DCV (5 points) and +1 level w/ DEX skills (5 points) for a total of 30 points.

 

The second character saves 7 points over the first and one point over the second. He gets a bonus to OCV and can use his higher roll for DEX-based skills on multiple skills at the same time, very handy with complementary rolls. He also acts faster in combat. He loses nothing. Which character will have the advantage in most games?

 

It's fine to say "build your character to his SFX", but this imposes an obligation on the system to avoid rewarding characters who either build outside SFX or select the most cost-effective SFX.

 

 

....an obligation that the system is not fulfilling. STR, CON and DEX are ridiculously underpriced. PRE and EGO are also great bargains.

 

The problem seems to me that Hero says, in terms: THIS is how you shall build a certain concept OR you shall suffer! It punishes the concept: My Dexterity Is Acquired By Practice and Skill, Not Natural.

 

There has been much talk recently about the pricing of characteristics, or even whether we need them at all. Hero has eveolved over the years: it never used to eb a toolkit, but it is now. I'm not sure we should be hanging on to those old ideas, no matter how convenient they may have been, and indeed, may continue to be.

 

Of course we WILL, because the alternative would be to change the system so radically that every previously published character will become obsolete. That would be an enormous gamble: if the fanbase waswillign to update, it would pay off dividends for Hero, if not, it could be a death knell.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

....an obligation that the system is not fulfilling. STR, CON and DEX are ridiculously underpriced. PRE and EGO are also great bargains.

 

The problem seems to me that Hero says, in terms: THIS is how you shall build a certain concept OR you shall suffer! It punishes the concept: My Dexterity Is Acquired By Practice and Skill, Not Natural.

 

Whether acquired naturally or by practice and skill, isn't it still Dexterity? It's only when the character wants parts of the benefits of a stat that the issue becomes problematic.

 

To my mind, NCM creates a good portion of the problem. A 5 point "+1 with all PRE skills" level is overpriced if you can buy +5 PRE for the same price, but seems far more reasonable (and a reduced price far less so) if +5 PRE costs 10 points due to NCM.

 

Another part of the problem is the fact that some aspects of certain stats can be purchased separately (figured characteristics; Hand Attack; Leaping; Levels with skills) but others can only be acquired separately with limited characteristics ("No Figured"; lifting capacity; OCV; ECV; Lightning Reflexes; resistance to being Stunned; offensive or defensive PRE effects).

 

An alternative to elimination of characteristics would be the elimination of other approaches to buying their effects, such that you must buy +X PRE, only for enhancing PRE skills, and cannot buy skill levels.

 

Of course we WILL' date=' because the alternative would be to change the system so radically that every previously published character will become obsolete. That would be an enormous gamble: if the fanbase was willign to update, it would pay off dividends for Hero, if not, it could be a death knell.[/quote']

 

D&D rolled those dice with 3e, rendering former characters incompatible. They clearly won that gamble. Whether Hero could, much less should, is another question.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

Whether acquired naturally or by practice and skill, isn't it still Dexterity? It's only when the character wants parts of the benefits of a stat that the issue becomes problematic.

 

To my mind, NCM creates a good portion of the problem. A 5 point "+1 with all PRE skills" level is overpriced if you can buy +5 PRE for the same price, but seems far more reasonable (and a reduced price far less so) if +5 PRE costs 10 points due to NCM.

 

Another part of the problem is the fact that some aspects of certain stats can be purchased separately (figured characteristics; Hand Attack; Leaping; Levels with skills) but others can only be acquired separately with limited characteristics ("No Figured"; lifting capacity; OCV; ECV; Lightning Reflexes; resistance to being Stunned; offensive or defensive PRE effects).

 

An alternative to elimination of characteristics would be the elimination of other approaches to buying their effects, such that you must buy +X PRE, only for enhancing PRE skills, and cannot buy skill levels.

 

At NCM costs, PRE is about right. With DEX, even at NCM costs:

 

15 DEX: 45 points, doubled to 90

 

+5 OCV 25 points

+5 DCV 25 points

+3 with DEX skills 15 points

+15 'lightning reflexes' 15 points

SPD discount 15 points

 

Total: 95 points

 

DEX is still a better bet.

 

If you got rid of characteristics in favour of their component parts though, you don;t have to do away with NCM: you just charge double for anything that takes you outside campaign limits: say 6 OCV or DCV, better than 14- skills etc.

 

There's no reason that we need a 'second tier' of more expensive components for when characteristic proices increase.

 

 

D&D rolled those dice with 3e' date=' rendering former characters incompatible. They clearly won that gamble. Whether Hero could, much less should, is another question.[/quote']

 

 

Sort of: a 1st edition DnD character and a 3rd edition DnD character were still recognisably the same, and easily converted. Replacing characteristics in Hero would mean a re-cost of every character though - that is a much bigger undertaking.

 

I understand 4th edition is coming out next year and it is going to ring some major changes.

 

Perhaps the time for evolution in Hero is done and the time for revolution is upon us...

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

Sort of: a 1st edition DnD character and a 3rd edition DnD character were still recognisably the same, and easily converted. Replacing characteristics in Hero would mean a re-cost of every character though - that is a much bigger undertaking.

 

Hmm. With the presence of Hero Designer I'm not sure that is true.

 

If you already own HD and use it to create your characters then the recoting exercise is a simple template matter.

 

If you do not own HD then it is a drive to HD to provide you with the facility (its not expensive and it is so highly recommended that anything that makes it an easier decision is a good thing).

 

As for printed characters I would leave them with their current abilities and produce a download sheet with new cost totals. Points really dont matter for NPCs.

 

Mechanically the characters would be good to go....and teh ultimate books etc would still be 70-80% correct and the stuff that referred to stats would be ignorable rather than replaced.

 

Doc

 

 

Doc

[SteveZilla]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

No, it's not about unrealistic, it's about the design concept. Strong guys being able to jump a long ways and hit hard is modeling a character (like Hulk) rather than a power (like Energy Blast).

 

Another example of this would be shrinking and the growth momentum punch. This is a holdover from shrinking characters from comic books, not a natural and proper part of the power on its own.

 

I just see these characteristics as being inconsistent with the Hero System, the examples were to try to get people to see that, not argue that the powers attached to them are unrealistic or unbelievable.

 

I think that STR is presumed to give all of it's observed benefits in the same way any observable power that is not limited gives all of it's benefits. It's what I'd term the "Overall Use" clause/assumption. Anything less than that "Overall Use" is grounds for some sort of Limitation, not an additional purchase to buy up to that effect.

 

People who are Overall stronger will IMO be able to do a standing leap further than a weaker character of the same mass. They will be able to lift more, or be able to lift the same and standing throw it further.

 

*Partially Limited* +STR (like really strong legs -- Lance Armstrong, for instance) will benefit only those activities where that STR can be applied (like kicking or jumping). No different than any other Partially Limited Power. Mr. Tears-Phone-Books-In-Half has additional, Partially Limited STR (he's got guns!). His STR wouldn't help with Leaping.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stats And Hero Purity

 

Sort of: a 1st edition DnD character and a 3rd edition DnD character were still recognisably the same, and easily converted. Replacing characteristics in Hero would mean a re-cost of every character though - that is a much bigger undertaking.

 

I understand 4th edition is coming out next year and it is going to ring some major changes.

 

Take a 10th level 1e Wizard out of his folder and try to run him in 3e. When I first read 3e, my first thoughts were "a pretty good game, but not D&D any more".