Variable power pool? Questions...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

You are quite right: a slot in a framework cannot add to or modify a slot in the same or another framework.

 

So no, then.

[Vorsch]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

Having myself once allowed a character with a "copy" powers vpp, id strongly advices not allowing it.

 

He can also copy your non pc allowed powers given to villains.

 

also other pcs will hate him with a passion.

[Tom Carman]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

Given that a lot of limtiations are far less limiting for powers in a VPP (run out of charges? build another power!) the GM has to work twice as hard to monitor submissions and should actively disallow or reduce the savings from' date=' a lot of limtiations.[/quote']

 

If you pull a charge-based power out of a VPP, the real points used should be considered locked into that power until the charges recover. However, I would allow that power to be revised into a different one - with the same active points and charges, some of which have already been expended.

[Shakram]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

Couldn't you have a transfer or absorption, not in your variable power pool that boosted the power pools power? If the transfer was bought seperatly, would that work?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

If you pull a charge-based power out of a VPP' date=' the real points used should be considered locked into that power until the charges recover. However, I would allow that power to be revised into a different one - with the same active points and charges, some of which have already been expended.[/quote']

 

That is a good idea, Tom, but where do you stop: if I buy a power that can only be used at night with my VPP, are the points 'locked in' to nocturnal use, and if so for how long?

 

If I create a power that requires gestures, do I have to use gestures with all the powers built with those points all day?

 

I can create a force field that takes 5 minutes to activate for -2 limitation if I know that I am going to be fighting in 6 minutes: if I had a set power with that limitation, I'd ahve to be careful, but if I have a VPP and I'm attacked unexpectedly, I'm not tied tot hat limtiation - I can have an 'instant' FF, and I can create it in such a way that it is most effective against the attack used against me: pd, ed, power def, men def, flash - whatever.

 

I agree that you can limit by rule some of the abuses (or, perhaps abuses is too strong a word; inspirations) but you'd have a job getting them all.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

Couldn't you have a transfer or absorption' date=' not in your variable power pool that boosted the power pools power? If the transfer was bought seperatly, would that work?[/quote']

 

Yes you can and yes it would, but:

 

1. Check out the rules on adjusting frameworks.

2. A GM might not let you substantially exceed campaign AP/DC limits even with boosted powers.

3. Be aware of the official rule on fade rates: each APPLICATION of an adjustment power fades by 5 points/time unit NOT just the total.

 

Generally, if it is a 'self only' thing, adjustment powers are not the most efficient way to become more powerful. Excellent concept powers though.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

That is a good idea' date=' Tom, but where do you stop: if I buy a power that can only be used at night with my VPP, are the points 'locked in' to nocturnal use, and if so for how long?[/quote']

 

If you can change your VPP at will, I would not give you any limitation for "only at night" on powers purchased in your VPP. Similarly, I don't believe you should be able to use only 1/3 of the actual points for an attack because you put "1 charge" on it, when you can keep choosing from an endless list of near-identical 1 charge attacks. [12d6 EB: Lightning; 12d6 EB: Taser; 12d6 EB: Bioelectricity; etc.]

 

For that reason, I would have no problem with a ruling that, when you use the charges, you can no longer access those real points until the charges would otherwise have recovered.

 

I also note that, if you invest VPP points into a power with Focus, and the focus is removed, you need to get it back before you can shift your VPP points. I find this more problematic than a "charges uses up real points" ruling.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

If you can change your VPP at will' date=' I would not give you any limitation for "only at night" on powers purchased in your VPP. Similarly, I don't believe you should be able to use only 1/3 of the actual points for an attack because you put "1 charge" on it, when you can keep choosing from an endless list of near-identical 1 charge attacks. [12d6 EB: Lightning; 12d6 EB: Taser; 12d6 EB: Bioelectricity; etc.']

 

For that reason, I would have no problem with a ruling that, when you use the charges, you can no longer access those real points until the charges would otherwise have recovered.

 

I also note that, if you invest VPP points into a power with Focus, and the focus is removed, you need to get it back before you can shift your VPP points. I find this more problematic than a "charges uses up real points" ruling.

 

On the focus thing I think that only applies if you have taken 'focus' to reduce the control cost. If not, I don't think you are so restricted.

 

Allowed and non-alled limitations are always going to eb a point of debate, but a GM foolish enough to allow a relatively unrestricted VPP should make it clear tot eh player what limitations he will and will not allow ahead of time: fairness and balance work both ways!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

My recollection is that there was a ruling that losing the focus prevented changing the pool until it was retrieved, but I can't find the reference.

[Tom Carman]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

On the focus thing I think that only applies if you have taken 'focus' to reduce the control cost. If not, I don't think you are so restricted.

 

Allowed and non-alled limitations are always going to eb a point of debate, but a GM foolish enough to allow a relatively unrestricted VPP should make it clear tot eh player what limitations he will and will not allow ahead of time: fairness and balance work both ways!

 

It's been a while since that game petered out, but my faint recollection is that the Gadget Pool had 2 formal Limitations on it: a Focus Lim of -1/2 or greater, and "components must be on hand to change the pool". So changing in the lab is unrestricted, but the gadgeteer is normally limited to the contents of his "parts satchel"; having a free hour for shopping or a battle in a junkyard or warehouse plays into this Lim. An additional limitation on the character was just an understanding with the GM: all inventions must be reasonably derived from the character's set of mechanical and scientific skills.

[JmOz]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

If you can change your VPP at will' date=' I would not give you any limitation for "only at night" on powers purchased in your VPP. Similarly, I don't believe you should be able to use only 1/3 of the actual points for an attack because you put "1 charge" on it, when you can keep choosing from an endless list of near-identical 1 charge attacks. [12d6 EB: Lightning; 12d6 EB: Taser; 12d6 EB: Bioelectricity; etc.']

 

For that reason, I would have no problem with a ruling that, when you use the charges, you can no longer access those real points until the charges would otherwise have recovered.

 

I also note that, if you invest VPP points into a power with Focus, and the focus is removed, you need to get it back before you can shift your VPP points. I find this more problematic than a "charges uses up real points" ruling.

 

As with Variable limitation there is no problem with "only at night" if it is part of a concept driven character

 

If I am playing a "Night mage" who's more powerful at night then "Only at night" is legit, If I am just trying to save points, then not so much

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

As with Variable limitation there is no problem with "only at night" if it is part of a concept driven character

 

If I am playing a "Night mage" who's more powerful at night then "Only at night" is legit, If I am just trying to save points, then not so much

 

In a Variable Limitation, I would likely allow it. In a VPP, where powers can have limitations added or removed at will, I'd be much less likely to allow it. If the VPP itself had a Variable Limitation (ie all powers must have some other limitation if Only at Night is removed), I would likely allow it.

[Sidume]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

Slight change of topic - but it's a question along a similar vein, so I didn't think a new topic was in order.

 

I'm looking for input on some costs. I've built a character with a fairly large VPP (90 active pts.). I'm looking for input on building, and what the appropriate math might be.

 

While the pool is large, the effect is fairly limited. He is a power mimic. The concept is that the character has significant mental abilities, but hasn't figured out how to access them. So he can copy any power with a mental component. In doing that he has the following limitation: Cannot copy powers that are mystic-based, focus-based, strictly physical, or stats. (-1, for now) For example, if he were to copy Aquaman, all he could get would be the minor telepathy and the ability to speak with the fish. He wouldn't get the benefit of Aquaman's Life Support, Enhanced Senses, Swimming out the wazoo, or Brick Stats. Do people think that -1 is right, or should it be higher (or lower rather)?

 

While this limitation might not mean much after he knows enough people to copy, there is another significant limitation. He has to be in range of the other person to copy them. I should assign this as a limitation, but I'm not sure what to call it, or how much of a negative to assign it. Any suggestions?

 

Hopefully I haven't scared people away, because I need to throw in yet another monkey wrench. Limiting the character to only copy those restricted powers in range made him virtually unplayable. So I expanded it a little bit, by saying he could carry 6 recoverable charges of copied powers. These aren't real easy to recover - it requires 20 minutes of exposure in range of the newly copied power to put it into a charge. But I don't want to limit the entire pool to the 6 recoverable charges, or I'll have spent a huge chunk of point on smoething that will almost never come into play.

 

Any suggestions on how to set this up, and what math to use?

[Sidume]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

Just bumping.

 

Any takers?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

Slight change of topic - but it's a question along a similar vein, so I didn't think a new topic was in order.

 

I'm looking for input on some costs. I've built a character with a fairly large VPP (90 active pts.). I'm looking for input on building, and what the appropriate math might be.

 

While the pool is large, the effect is fairly limited. He is a power mimic. The concept is that the character has significant mental abilities, but hasn't figured out how to access them. So he can copy any power with a mental component. In doing that he has the following limitation: Cannot copy powers that are mystic-based, focus-based, strictly physical, or stats. (-1, for now) For example, if he were to copy Aquaman, all he could get would be the minor telepathy and the ability to speak with the fish. He wouldn't get the benefit of Aquaman's Life Support, Enhanced Senses, Swimming out the wazoo, or Brick Stats. Do people think that -1 is right, or should it be higher (or lower rather)?

 

While this limitation might not mean much after he knows enough people to copy, there is another significant limitation. He has to be in range of the other person to copy them. I should assign this as a limitation, but I'm not sure what to call it, or how much of a negative to assign it. Any suggestions?

 

Hopefully I haven't scared people away, because I need to throw in yet another monkey wrench. Limiting the character to only copy those restricted powers in range made him virtually unplayable. So I expanded it a little bit, by saying he could carry 6 recoverable charges of copied powers. These aren't real easy to recover - it requires 20 minutes of exposure in range of the newly copied power to put it into a charge. But I don't want to limit the entire pool to the 6 recoverable charges, or I'll have spent a huge chunk of point on smoething that will almost never come into play.

 

Any suggestions on how to set this up, and what math to use?

 

I just noticed this 3 year old post.

 

I think a VPP/Multiform might be the best bet (similar with what I started with Parasite below).

 

I'm changing course here a little bit and working on one of Superman's signature villains and arguably one of the hardest to translate into HERO - The Parasite.

 

 

Like all of the heroes, I want to build him on 350 points as well. I think this is possible because Superman and all of the other 'naturally powered' heroes (of this thread) abilities have been built using the 'Affected by Adjustments as an EC' Limitation. By building all the heroes with this I avoid having to build Parasite's Drain with the 'All Powers Simultaneously (+2)' level of Variable Effect.

 

With this in mind I would appreciate any feedback regarding the following power set for Parasite:

 

36 Do You Feel Yourself Getting Weaker?: Drain Any Biological SFX Ability 3d6+1 (standard effect: 10 points), any [biological] power one at a time (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Hour; +1) (82 Active Points); Limited Special Effect Only vs. Biological Abilities (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), Limited Power Skin Contact Required (-1/4) 3

 

36 Hurts Doesn't It?: Energy Blast 6d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Attack Versus Limited Defense (Power Defense; +1 1/2) (90 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), Linked (Do You Feel Yourself Getting Weaker?; -1/4), Limited Power Skin Contact Required (-1/4)

 

128 Now I Have Your Powers!: Variable Power Pool, 100 base + 28 control cost, No Skill Roll Required (+1) (200 Active Points); Character Has No Choice Regarding How Powers Change (Also Gains Biological Disadvantages ; -1/2), VPP Powers Can Be Changed Only In Given Circumstance (Linked To Drain; -1/2), Conditional Power Powers Fade At Same Rate As Drain Recovers (-1/2), Limited Class Of Powers Available Limited (-1/2), Limited Power Abilities Gained Proportional ToThose Drained (-1/2)

0 1) Multiform (500 Character Points in the most expensive form) (100 Active Points) Real Cost: 100

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

Our group's ruling on limitations on powers in VPPs is as follows:

 

VPPs and Limitations: Most limitations are -0 if put on powers inside a VPP. In order to be full value, a limitation must be guaranteed to come up every time the power is used, and not be negatable by changing the VPP. This is much more lenient for VPPs that take a full phase or more to change; in general, only ones that the character will always know far enough in advance to swap out should be banned (ie, “Only on Tuesday” unless the VPP takes a week or more to change).

Examples:

Activation Roll is fine - it will always be rolled.

Not Vs. (SFX) is not allowed - if you come across someone who can use that SFX, you can change it.

Incantations are not allowed - if something prevents the incantations, you can change it.

No Range is not allowed - if you need to use the power at range, you can change it.

Cannot Be Used With Manuever X is not allowed - if you want to use it with Manuever X, you can change it.

Charges - No

Increased Endurance Cost - Yes

Side Effect - Yes, provided that the side effect is not in some way conditional/easily removed such that it doesn't matter to you. For example, Activation Roll + Side Effect of taking damage if the roll fails is fine.

Not In (Situation), Linked, Lockout, etc - not allowed.

[dmjalund]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

Our group's ruling on limitations on powers in VPPs is as follows:

 

VPPs and Limitations: Most limitations are -0 if put on powers inside a VPP. In order to be full value, a limitation must be guaranteed to come up every time the power is used, and not be negatable by changing the VPP. This is much more lenient for VPPs that take a full phase or more to change; in general, only ones that the character will always know far enough in advance to swap out should be banned (ie, “Only on Tuesday” unless the VPP takes a week or more to change).

Examples:

Activation Roll is fine - it will always be rolled.

Not Vs. (SFX) is not allowed - if you come across someone who can use that SFX, you can change it.

Incantations are not allowed - if something prevents the incantations, you can change it.

No Range is not allowed - if you need to use the power at range, you can change it.

Cannot Be Used With Manuever X is not allowed - if you want to use it with Manuever X, you can change it.

Charges - No

Increased Endurance Cost - Yes

Side Effect - Yes, provided that the side effect is not in some way conditional/easily removed such that it doesn't matter to you. For example, Activation Roll + Side Effect of taking damage if the roll fails is fine.

Not In (Situation), Linked, Lockout, etc - not allowed.

I totally agree with this - if the VPP is instantly changeable.

If one has to wait between combats to change, some limitations become relevant again.

And If you can only change them between Adventures, most again become relevant.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

Isn't that all handled by the "VPP Only" or "Common" options for modifiers?

 

So you have a 100 point Pool and 100 Point Control. You can have 100 Real Points active at any given time, with 100 Active Points as the maximum on any given slot.

 

You then build a slot with, let's say, Extra Time - Only to Activate. But the VPP has a VPP-Only Modifier of, essentially "Extra Time - Only to Change Powers." That only applies to the VPP, and does not reduce the Real Cost of the Slot. The Extra Time - Only to Activate on the slot does decrease the real cost.

 

Now the character could remove said limitation if this were a more "cosmic" power pool - powers change as 1/2 or 0 phase action or the like. But then the new power would either need some other limitation, or it would further limit what could be active.

 

A prime example would be a Silver Surfer clone; just about everything is in the VPP, and it has 0 phase to change powers, any power available, literally "Power Cosmic."

 

So with 100 Real points, 20 might be in his resistant defense, 10 more in his flight, etc. As he gets more powers active - let's say a Barrier to protect a downed comrade, then an entangle on a foe, then some blasts at others, etc. The limit on his VPP is going to be "how many things can he do at once?" and, the fewer limits he has on a slot, the fewer slots he will be able to have. And definitely make any slot that has any kind of lasting effect require "continuous charges" if they want to fire it and then switch their VPP up to not include that power without said power fading once the VPP switches.

 

Seems to make more sense to me to limit the VPP not by house rule, but simply by active / real point caps, and required limitations.

[Ice9]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

I think that character concepts that include "do anything, without significant limitations" are the issue, more so than VPP. You can get the same effect with Multiform, with generally the same issues arising. But a VPP limited to a reasonably tight portfolio, and/or with significant limitations on its use, doesn't seem particularly problematic.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

I totally agree with this - if the VPP is instantly changeable.

If one has to wait between combats to change, some limitations become relevant again.

And If you can only change them between Adventures, most again become relevant.

 

I agree - that's why we have the "This is much more lenient..." line in there.