Mind jump thing..

[Alibear]

Well, I'm sure I've seen this power somewhere but I can't remember where.

 

 

The one where the bad guy switches body with you. He gets your shiney new body and leaves you with his crumby old one. Thoughts, memories etc get transferred to the new vehicle for the mental powers.

 

How are we writing that power up nowadays?

[Comic]

Re: Mind jump thing..

 

For you, a major transformation.

 

For him, a VPP mimic pool.

 

The details left as an exercise.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind jump thing..

 

The problem is that conceptually, this power should work for anyone whose mind you are capable of swapping out, so the points of the target (character points, that is) should not matter. Character points are an entirely metagame concept and should not really have any place in the gameworld, at least not visibly. In fact, whilst you can tarnsform any target to a crumbly version, you will have more difficulty assuming the aspect and powers, and, for that matter, memories, of the target, because of point restrictions.

 

A VPP mimic pool has very real and finite limits. A more flexibly (read 'easily abused') option is a VPP multiform.

 

Moreover, what is good for the goose is good for the gander: there's no point in writing this up for villains unelss you are leaving open the possibility of letting the placyers loose on it. If it is villain only, then just build it like this:

 

Mind Swap, mental power, ranged, requires END 100 points.

 

The Attacker has to make an atatck roll then an opposed EGO roll. The Opposed EGO roll has to have a number of successes equal to the INT score of the target, although this can be done over multiple consecutive phases, of the attacker can continue to make attack rolls and pay the END.

 

If you want the thing 'properly' statted out there are two basic approaches, as far as I can see:

 

1. Comic's method, which should wor generally, given that opponents are usually ofg a similar power level to you.

 

2. Mind control plus telepathy and some sort of desolid/EDM power that allows your consciousness to 'ride' the new body, coupled with a transform on your OLD body. This is much clunkier but the only real determiner of success is the mental armamentarium of the target, rather thean the metagame concept of build points.

 

The other problem with the VPP/multiform approach is that you get all the memories. This is a powerful ability: it equates to pefect telepathy, in many senses, which is something you are not paying for. You are not even buying a special detect to map the target's brain neurones. This, to my mind, is the real game breaker.

 

The other thing, presumably, just looking at concept here, is that the memories of the new mind could be quite intrusive: you could build this (with the VPP multiform approach) by taking the 'can get stuck in form' limtiation: eventually you really DO become the person you have subsumed, which is why the character would need to be constantly moving, and spend time in his own body to rest.

 

Of course, this may be more of a problem from a philosophical standpoint thana practical one, but unless you are going to work through the ramifications of a build, why build it at all - just pick a number and make up your own mechanic.

[Alibear]

Re: Mind jump thing..

 

Well, I could just GM wave it, as I do with lots of stuff.

 

However, I did want to have at least an idea what I was doing to give the PC's 'the illusion' of having a chance and a defence against it if they are attacked by it.

 

What defences should apply? I was thinking an Ego v Ego roll to wrest control of the body from the victim.

 

 

The problem is that I like to have an idea of how a power is built, even if I don't actually build it, for completeness for myself, as much as to use as a shield against whining players if need be.

[Comic]

Re: Mind jump thing..

 

Inherent in the VPP approach is, if the target's "too powerful", the attempt fails, like an attempt to ride 'too wild' a bronco.

 

If one of the target's powers exceeds the VPP size, too powerful. If the total powers and characteristics exceed the VPP available, too powerful.

 

If the powers of the target have the special effect that they have a mental origin, then the mind jumper is in for the nasty surprise of just getting the ordinary host body.

 

I agree, btw, with a past GM who ruled that SPD, Dex, Int, Ego, and Pre were all mental, and body swaps didn't grant these.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mind jump thing..

 

I agree' date=' btw, with a past GM who ruled that SPD, Dex, Int, Ego, and Pre were all mental, and body swaps didn't grant these.[/quote']

 

I agree with INT and EGO. DEX, SPD and PRE depend a lot on SFX. I could see, for example, gaining the offense aspects of PRE from an intimidating body, but the defensive and skills aspects not transferring due to not having spend a lifetime in that body. Similarly, some of DEX and SPD could be physical and some mental.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Mind jump thing..

 

"Mind Transfer" Major Transform (Target's Mind into Character's Mind), BOECV (Mental Defense applies, normal Range modifier; +3/4), Works Against EGO, Not BODY (+1/4), Side Effects: Character's Mind is Transformed into Target's Mind (Extreme, Always; -2), Limited Target (Humans; -1/2)*

 

*Our definition of "Mind" is INT, EGO, and PRE; all INT, EGO, and PRE based skills (including relevant Background Skills); and all Mental Powers (including relevant BOECV Powers). Perks and Talents are at the discretion of the GM.

 

I also use this build for "Possession". Just change the Side Effect to Side Effects: Character Is Helpless And Incapacitated (Major, Always; -1).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind jump thing..

 

"Mind Transfer" Major Transform (Target's Mind into Character's Mind), BOECV (Mental Defense applies, normal Range modifier; +3/4), Works Against EGO, Not BODY (+1/4), Side Effects: Character's Mind is Transformed into Target's Mind (Extreme, Always; -2), Limited Target (Humans; -1/2)*

 

*Our definition of "Mind" is INT, EGO, and PRE; all INT, EGO, and PRE based skills (including relevant Background Skills); and all Mental Powers (including relevant BOECV Powers). Perks and Talents are at the discretion of the GM.

 

I also use this build for "Possession". Just change the Side Effect to Side Effects: Character Is Helpless And Incapacitated (Major, Always; -1).

 

 

Back to philosophy: if you are changing a target to YOUR mind, is it the original, or a copy?

 

If it is a copy, that is not going to help much - you are still you and there is now another character (a GM character) running round with your mind.

 

If it really IS your mind, you can't use transform.

 

That's why you transform the target to a copy of you (with his own mind), and change yourself with a VPP, multiform etc.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind jump thing..

 

Inherent in the VPP approach is, if the target's "too powerful", the attempt fails, like an attempt to ride 'too wild' a bronco.

 

If one of the target's powers exceeds the VPP size, too powerful. If the total powers and characteristics exceed the VPP available, too powerful.

 

If the powers of the target have the special effect that they have a mental origin, then the mind jumper is in for the nasty surprise of just getting the ordinary host body.

 

I agree, btw, with a past GM who ruled that SPD, Dex, Int, Ego, and Pre were all mental, and body swaps didn't grant these.

 

 

'Too powerful' is a metagame concept. 'Power' in game has nothing to do with points: you can have a very 'powerful' (efficient build) 350 point character, or a positively mediocre (interesting build) 500 point character.

 

I'm not keen on importing metagame concepts into the actual gameplay.

 

Also, if you are assuming the memories of the target, there is not good reason INT should not increase. INT is, at least in part, about memory. Arguably so is Ego and Pre.

[Utech]

Re: Mind jump thing..

 

'Too powerful' is a metagame concept. 'Power' in game has nothing to do with points: you can have a very 'powerful' (efficient build) 350 point character' date=' or a positively mediocre (interesting build) 500 point character.[/quote']

 

I have no trouble at all with this metagame concept brought right on in and made a game concept.

 

I think back many years to the X-Men's Rogue trying to take Spiral's powers. She couldn't take all of them and Spiral was not KOed (as all of Rogue's previous targets were on skin contact). The reasoning in the comic book was quite simple: Spiral was too powerful.

 

Edit: Now that I think about it, this happened more than once. In at least one instance, the target was so powerful that he/she took over Rogue's body and mind!

[Doc Samson]

Re: Mind jump thing..

 

Back to philosophy: if you are changing a target to YOUR mind, is it the original, or a copy?

 

If it is a copy, that is not going to help much - you are still you and there is now another character (a GM character) running round with your mind.

 

If it really IS your mind, you can't use transform.

 

That's why you transform the target to a copy of you (with his own mind), and change yourself with a VPP, multiform etc.

 

This build is borrowed mostly from the UM, so it's as close to official as your gonna get I think. You can define the Side Effects any way the GM allows (such as VPP or even a Mental Shape Shift). The Side Effects limitation doesn't require the player to pay for the effects of the limitation. Transform is only used in this circumnstance to equate the AP cost of the limitation.

[Comic]

Re: Mind jump thing..

 

I think back many years to the X-Men's Rogue trying to take Spiral's powers. ..

 

This is the main character I was thinking of, yes. Spiral was too skilled, subtle, insane and elusive for Rogue to handle. Loki was too powerful. Even Carol Danvers' personality (and let's face it, she didn't have much personality), was too much for Rogue to completely dominate.

 

Similarly, less powerful psychics taking on more powerful psychics often find themselves PWNed in this way -- not just failing to take over, but being taken over instead.

 

And while meta-gamey in a way, the idea has a sort of organic balance to it. In the terms of the power built in this manner, the points of the target are the defense, and the points of the target are their 'total power'.

[casualplayer]

Re: Mind jump thing..

 

Seems to me that it's just a Mind Control with a Side Effect (Victim gets control of your body.) Too simple?

[Alibear]

Re: Mind jump thing..

 

I think the mind control idea is the easiest and best way to model switching minds. I'll go with that.

 

rep you CasualPlayer.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind jump thing..

 

I have no trouble at all with this metagame concept brought right on in and made a game concept.

 

I think back many years to the X-Men's Rogue trying to take Spiral's powers. She couldn't take all of them and Spiral was not KOed (as all of Rogue's previous targets were on skin contact). The reasoning in the comic book was quite simple: Spiral was too powerful.

 

Edit: Now that I think about it, this happened more than once. In at least one instance, the target was so powerful that he/she took over Rogue's body and mind!

 

 

I have no trouble with 'too powerful' meaning you can't take over a target, I have a probelm with the metagame concept that points=power.

 

You can build a normal in a superhero world and spend over 350 points, never exceeding human maxima or 'superagent' abilities. For far less than that you could build a powerful psychic who can read the mind of someone ont he other side of the world. Which is most powerful? In comic book terms, almost certainly the psychic, but in character point terms, the 'super' normal.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind jump thing..

 

I think the mind control idea is the easiest and best way to model switching minds. I'll go with that.

 

rep you CasualPlayer.

 

That has the enormous advantage of simplicity, but does not really do what was required - swap minds.

 

Of course the swapping of minds is probably more of a limtiation (you have an enemy who is still active, albeit in your old body) in many cases, and you wind up paying more (for the transform element); depends what you are after.

 

If you DO got the mind control route I'd suggest you also need something like clairsentience to give you a FPS POV, so that you actually are looking out of their eyes.

 

You are also tied to your actual body - if it takes adamage you take the effect.

[Alibear]

Re: Mind jump thing..

 

Good points, Sean. I really just wanted to work out how to handle the mechanics of mind transfer (ecv v ecv and how many dice I should roll and what chart to look up, how you break out etc.) , which mind control does well enough.

 

The fine details I'll just GM hand wave and describe 'in non-Hero language'.

 

Thanks again to all for your input.

 

Al