Knockback Only, No Direct Damage

[Slice-n-Dice]

I am building a character based on the ability to control the adrenal systems of allies and foes, thereby increasing their recovery (healing/aid) and decreasing durability (endurance drain). Mostly she has no physical representation of her power.

 

She will be purely a support character but I want her to be able to protect herself. I have looked over a few of the knockback powers but they dont seem to fit right for some reason.

 

I am thinking an energy blast build that does body only for purposes of knockback, (no Direct damage from the blast) kinda like concussion. Obviously it could be a low level blast with double knockback, but if it does no direct damage what kind of limitations could it have to reduce the power cost? Thsi would also be taxing on her as it would be the only physical representation of her power. (Increased END cost?).

 

Also if it could be an AoE that would be good but I dont want it to be a DS because of the hit on her END would be hard to keep it going.

 

Any and all thoughts would be appreciated.

 

Thanks a heap.

 

SnD

[Tonio]

Re: Knockback Only, No Direct Damage

 

Sounds like Telekinesis.

[Maccabe]

Re: Knockback Only, No Direct Damage

 

I agree with Tonio here; Telekinesis (Push Away only).

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Knockback Only, No Direct Damage

 

Double Knockback (+3/4), Does No Stun (-3/4), Does No Real Body (Knockback Only; -0).

 

Or the TK thing; Instant, basically. I think you use the 'extra strength' rules to determine how far you can throw them, but I may be wrong on that.

[Tonio]

Re: Knockback Only, No Direct Damage

 

I could be wrong, but I think there's an example in the BBB that describes just this, when talking about how you should examine what the power actually does without considering game mechanics, before actually trying to build it.

 

When you think about it, the power does not do "normal damage at range", which is what EB is for. It "pushes targets away", which is (part of) what telekinesis does.

[Slice-n-Dice]

Re: Knockback Only, No Direct Damage

 

Ok all it seems TK is the way to go. Now I will try a few variations and play test it against a few different NPC types. I think the normal in flight will be the most fun. Anyways, I did not think of Telekinesis as the way to go, thanks a heap for the info guys!

 

SnD

[Sean Waters]

Re: Knockback Only, No Direct Damage

 

Whilst TK might seem to fit the bill well enough, it it may not make a lot of sense, depending on how you visualise the power working. If you hit a target with a certain amount of force, the question of whether the target is knocked back, or thrown back, is really just a function of mass, not strength, and mechanically a 'no damage' EB with double KB better simulates that. Also the mechanic for KB is at least as straightforward as the 'grab and throw' system you need to use with TK, and avaoids the opposed STR roll. So we need to look, in terms of results, assuming a 60 AP cap, at how the different approaches actually work:

 

TK: 40 STR, throw = 24". I would presume that would do, in effect, a zero STR move through on any object hit, so damage would be in the region of 10d6, but I'd be wrong - it does 8d6 damage, derived from the STR of the TK. The throw distance and damage will be the same every time. Mass of the target will affect throw distance but not damage, but things like whether the target is on the ground or flying will make no difference. KB resistance will have no effect, unless you purchase the power with a limtiaiton that it does.

 

EB: 6d6, or 7d7 (double KB) if the GM will stretch to a 61 AP cap. This will do, on average, 12 or 14 - 2d6" of KB, and damage will depend on what you hit. Normal KB modifiers, (flying target, KBR).

 

The TK may seem more 'reliable' but it does depend on the STR of the target - it either works at full effect, or, if an opposed STR roll is made (using casual strength) not at all. The TK will certainly put the target further away, if it works.

 

Neither is the 'right' way to do it, and there are all sorts of other approaches (UAA flight, for instance) you could adopt. The important thing is to be fully aware of the consequences of the choice you make, and to ensure that it 'fits' conceptually AND mechanically.

 

I'm sure you've already thought of this, but can I mention that an END drain is a very effective attack and fits nicely with your concept:

 

4d6 ranged END drain will average 28 points of END drained. Not many characters will be able to take more than 2 of them without all their END using powers dropping, or having to burn STUN instead. Personally I'd allow this construct:

 

60 point Multipower: Offensive Adrenal Control (-0, no control over slot allocation - you must use END drain if the target has END, and STUN drain if it doesn't BUT the slots automatically adjust, i.e. do not require 'conscious switching', or awareness of the END status of the target)

 

6 SLOT 1 (ULTRA) 4d6 Ranged END drain

6 SLOT 2 (ULTRA) 4d6 Ranged STUN drain

 

As an aside it is odd that you can throw someone 24" into a wall, and do 8d6 damage, or KB them 10" into a wall and do 10d6 damage. Might need to look at velocity based damage again, or use the alternate rules.

[Slice-n-Dice]

Re: Knockback Only, No Direct Damage

 

Beautiful! I already have the END drain in my framework, really until the KB power no other offensive power, I will read more on the STUN/END combo.

 

As for the KB Power, I am going to make the SFX be her Force Field Discharging, so I think I will go with a no range EB, Explosion, with Lockout on my FF, as long as the lockout effect can be that it deactivates the FF when the power activates. Along with some Limitations of course but the cost should be managable.

 

 

We will probably be play testing this weekend to see if she is potent enough to hold her own. Our GM seems like he wants to play an overpowered (500ish CP)campaign so only 4 characters can really get into some trouble, but we shall see. I am used to building 250 pt guys so this could get interesting.

 

Thanks for all the help, I will keep you posted.

 

SnD

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Knockback Only, No Direct Damage

 

Another alternative to a 0 Damage EB would be a Flash vs. a non-Targeting sense (like Touch) with Does KB and x2 KB.

 

30 Touch Group Flash 8d6, Does Knockback (+1/4), Hole In The Middle (+1/4), Does x1 1/2 Knockback (+1/2), Explosion (+1/2) (60 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Lockout (-1/2) - END=6

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Knockback Only, No Direct Damage

 

Another alternative to a 0 Damage EB would be a Flash vs. a non-Targeting sense (like Touch) with Does KB and x2 KB.

 

30 Touch Group Flash 8d6, Does Knockback (+1/4), Hole In The Middle (+1/4), Does x1 1/2 Knockback (+1/2), Explosion (+1/2) (60 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Lockout (-1/2) - END=6

 

Nice and clean build there.

Avoids the problems with trying to do this with, say, dispel.

 

Bravo

[Sean Waters]

Re: Knockback Only, No Direct Damage

 

Nice and clean build there.

Avoids the problems with trying to do this with, say, dispel.

 

Bravo

 

Hmm. May avoid some of the technical problems, but not the biggest practical one. The 'screams munchkin' one

 

(Although having said that, Hyper Man's specific build looks perfectly reasonable)

[Alibear]

Re: Knockback Only, No Direct Damage

 

Don't forget that flashing someones sense of touch has massive implications for Dexterity based stuff. Like combat.

 

A Flash v touch is one of my favourite things.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Knockback Only, No Direct Damage

 

Don't forget that flashing someones sense of touch has massive implications for Dexterity based stuff. Like combat.

 

A Flash v touch is one of my favourite things.

 

 

Should have....should have. Without a sense of touch it is almost imopssible to know if you are holding something or have put your foot down properly, or whatever. Losing your sense of touch should be quite crippling...witness novacaine, deadlegs and waking up having slept on your arm.

 

In Hero, however, what you get if you lose your sense of touch is the inability to sense by touch. No movement penalties, no combat penalties, nothing, zip, nada.

 

If someone shoots you in the back with an attack that causes no KB, you probably won't notice the attack, but that is about as much effect as it has on combat.

 

Similarly you don't take any penalties to your acrobatics roll or even your lockpicking roll. Negative skill levels or DEX drains are required to have those effects - all a touch flash does is removes your sesne of touch...not all that logically follows.

[Alibear]

Re: Knockback Only, No Direct Damage

 

Should have....should have. Without a sense of touch it is almost imopssible to know if you are holding something or have put your foot down properly, or whatever. Losing your sense of touch should be quite crippling...witness novacaine, deadlegs and waking up having slept on your arm.

 

In Hero, however, what you get if you lose your sense of touch is the inability to sense by touch. No movement penalties, no combat penalties, nothing, zip, nada.

 

If someone shoots you in the back with an attack that causes no KB, you probably won't notice the attack, but that is about as much effect as it has on combat.

 

Similarly you don't take any penalties to your acrobatics roll or even your lockpicking roll. Negative skill levels or DEX drains are required to have those effects - all a touch flash does is removes your sesne of touch...not all that logically follows.

 

Sean, I think either you or I need, to go back and read about losing senses while I'm pretty sure you have a -3 CV and a -3 to dex based skills.

 

I'll check when I get home, I suggest you do the same and we can talk further later.

 

Al

[Sean Waters]

Re: Knockback Only, No Direct Damage

 

Sean, I think either you or I need, to go back and read about losing senses while I'm pretty sure you have a -3 CV and a -3 to dex based skills.

 

I'll check when I get home, I suggest you do the same and we can talk further later.

 

Al

 

Ye Gods, you're right. At least -3!

 

To do that with with a flash:

 

Numb: Touch Group Flash 3d6, Continuous (+1) (18 Active Points) 2 END

 

To do that with negative skill levels you'd need -3 for the OCV and -3 for the DEX, for 30 points plus (givent hat negartive skill levels are not inherently ranged) and 3+ END.

 

Doesn't sound right to me, but that is clearly the rule.

[Alibear]

Re: Knockback Only, No Direct Damage

 

I think -3 is about right perhaps a little conservative.

 

I would imagine fighting without a sense of touch would be more limiting than having to fight with the left hand or without weapon familiarities. Still -3 is what I go with.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Knockback Only, No Direct Damage

 

This character has a similar ability, gravity based, to basically pull people directly down to the ground in their hex, represented w/ a KB only EB; only characters with large amounts of KB Resistance (plus perhaps Clinging) could resist it unprepared, and very strong characters could use STR to resist it if prepared exactly the same way as STR can be used to resist KB: Gravitic

 

Specifically, the Gravitic Pulse ability:

 

7u 7) Gravitic Pulse: Energy Blast 10d6 (vs. PD), Indirect (Always from ground below target; +1/2), Does x1 1/2 Knockback (+1/2) (100 Active Points); Limited Power Only vs Opponents within 1" of the ground (-1/2) (uses END Reserve)

Notes: No Knockback, Double Knockback: The goal of the power is to knock people over. Calculate Knockback as normal, if the target takes Knockback then they fall down in their hex and take no Knockback damage.

 

 

The player and I couldn't agree on exactly how limiting no kb, no damage actually is when the intent of the power is to knock people down without actually hurting them.

 

Personally, I thought the power should work the other way, tossing the target up in the air w/ KB inches (turning off gravity for a brief instance) and then slam them back down to the ground, but the groups pro from dover physics / math geek started talking about rotation of the earth and how much rotational drift would occur in a second based upon the height of the toss up etc etc and it just became a pita.

 

In the end, since it was in an Ultraslot and the cost difference would be negligible we just called it a wash and walked away from it.

 

Personally, I think No Direct Damage is worth -1 easy, and an argument could be made for -1 1/4 or -1 1/2 by a lenient GM. It would be more limiting on a character with no other attacks, and less limiting in a MP of attacks that do direct damage as its only ever going to be used specifically for what its designed for -- knocking people down.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Knockback Only, No Direct Damage

 

I think -3 is about right perhaps a little conservative.

 

I would imagine fighting without a sense of touch would be more limiting than having to fight with the left hand or without weapon familiarities. Still -3 is what I go with.

 

Oh I'm not saying it is unrealistic, indeed, I imagine that, if you define touch as including the kinaesthetic/feedback sense, which I presume is where the penalties come from, then you probably wouldn't even be able to stand up without it.

 

OTOH if this is just an inability to sense outside stimulii, less so.

 

Nonetheless, the real world sense of touch is not the same as the Hero sense of touch. HeroTouch is not a targetting sense. Whilst it makes perfect sense that inability to touch is a problem, and whilst the rules are clear enough, I'm not sure it is a great rule.

 

It is interesting that touch is a sense that Hero never really seems to get to grips with. In shapeshift., for example, touchshifing allows you to change shape. in flash, it gives substantial penalties to combat. I know that sight flash does, but i can understand that: sight is a targeting sense and other senses can be targetting so, even when blinded, you can still funtion fully. Touch is different - it is NOT a targeting sense, and I can't imagine any other sesnes that might 'fill the gap'.

 

Hero is all about building the effect you need rather than thinking of the logical consequences of an ability and getting that for free. That, and the fact that touch flash is so darned cheap, give me real pause for concern.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Knockback Only, No Direct Damage

 

Oh I'm not saying it is unrealistic, indeed, I imagine that, if you define touch as including the kinaesthetic/feedback sense, which I presume is where the penalties come from, then you probably wouldn't even be able to stand up without it.

 

OTOH if this is just an inability to sense outside stimulii, less so.

 

Nonetheless, the real world sense of touch is not the same as the Hero sense of touch. HeroTouch is not a targetting sense. Whilst it makes perfect sense that inability to touch is a problem, and whilst the rules are clear enough, I'm not sure it is a great rule.

 

It is interesting that touch is a sense that Hero never really seems to get to grips with. In shapeshift., for example, touchshifing allows you to change shape. in flash, it gives substantial penalties to combat. I know that sight flash does, but i can understand that: sight is a targeting sense and other senses can be targetting so, even when blinded, you can still funtion fully. Touch is different - it is NOT a targeting sense, and I can't imagine any other sesnes that might 'fill the gap'.

 

Hero is all about building the effect you need rather than thinking of the logical consequences of an ability and getting that for free. That, and the fact that touch flash is so darned cheap, give me real pause for concern.

 

Barring your "WAYYYY too nasty for the cost" Continuous Flash there, I think that was part of the reason for shifting Flash effects from Phases to Segments. The example Hyper-man doesn't seem radically overpowered for 60 AP, tho admittedly I haven't run it through it's paces yet.

I agree that there needs some way to mitigate the effect with other senses, and that Touch has been one of the Red Headed Stepchild senses in that regard.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Knockback Only, No Direct Damage

 

As I mentioned earlier, any non-targeting sense affecting Flash could be used.

 

Here's a minor tweak on my earlier example:

 

40 The non-lethal Joke: Hearing Group Flash 8d6, Does Knockback (+1/4), Explosion (Cone; -1 DC/2"; +1/2), Does x2 Knockback (+3/4) (60 Active Points); No Range (-1/2) - END=6

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Knockback Only, No Direct Damage

 

Personally Im always hesitant to allow Does Knockback on things that don't do actual damage. It almost always results in a cheesy / overpowered ability.

[Alibear]

Re: Knockback Only, No Direct Damage

 

If and when I GM touch is a no range targeting sense. Sorta.

 

If you close your eyes and you manage to touch something then it follows that you know where they are (sorta). You can 100% grab or punch them. I would perhaps give an ocv penalty, -2 maybe, but I'd allow the blind to fight by sense of touch alone.

 

I'd allow people skilled in blind fighting to buy off those penalties.

 

This is something we have practiced, for fun and to keep training intresting, in my karate dojo. Most 'fights' ended up in grabs and wrestling. I'd require a touch perception roll, like Daphne in Scooby Doo, and then give them the -2 ocv. Once you have that sucker grabbed you don't need to make perception rolls anymore.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Knockback Only, No Direct Damage

 

Personally Im always hesitant to allow Does Knockback on things that don't do actual damage. It almost always results in a cheesy / overpowered ability.

 

That was why (rather than the fact of it being a touch flash, which took on a life of its own) I was concerned about the original build. Often when you see this sort of thing, it involves leveraging low cost powers with hefty advantages.

 

However, Hyper Man's suggestion did not seem abusive, and I'd be perfectly happy to allow this:

 

12d6 EB Cone Explosion (+1/2), no range (-1/2) no direct damage (-1?)

90 active points, 36 real

 

That is comparable in cost (it doesn't deafen the target, of course), even if my construct is a lot more expensive in active points.

 

One other thing that occurs is this: when applied to dispel 'does KB' doesn't work if the dispel fails to take effect (FAQ ruling, below), I wonder if that is a general ruling about Does KB or a specific ruling about 'Dispel Does KB'? If the former then flash defence could stop the KB effect if the power failed to take effect.

 

 

Some questions concerning the interaction of Dispel with the Does Knockback Advantage:

1. If a character buys a Dispel with Does Knockback, can the power still do Knockback if the Dispel hits the target but fails to take effect?
   
2. If the target of such a power is Knockback Resistance, does the KBR reduce the Knockback done by the Dispel that “deactivates” it?
   
3. Could a character use a Dispel X, Does Knockback on a character that lacks X, just to do Knockback?

 

 

The answers:

1. No.
   
2. The Knockback Resistance affects, and thus reduces, the Knockback caused by the Dispel. Thereafter, the character doesn’t have any KBR until he “restores” it somehow, so attacks that do Knockback affect him in full, with no reduction.
   
3. No. If a power is designed to Adjust or otherwise affect an ability or something else a character doesn’t have, then it simply has no effect it all, even if it “hits.” You can’t affect what isn’t there.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Knockback Only, No Direct Damage

 

If and when I GM touch is a no range targeting sense. Sorta.

 

If you close your eyes and you manage to touch something then it follows that you know where they are (sorta). You can 100% grab or punch them. I would perhaps give an ocv penalty, -2 maybe, but I'd allow the blind to fight by sense of touch alone.

 

I'd allow people skilled in blind fighting to buy off those penalties.

 

This is something we have practiced, for fun and to keep training intresting, in my karate dojo. Most 'fights' ended up in grabs and wrestling. I'd require a touch perception roll, like Daphne in Scooby Doo, and then give them the -2 ocv. Once you have that sucker grabbed you don't need to make perception rolls anymore.

 

I'd be inclined to just follow the 'using a non-targetting sense in combat' rules (-1 DCV, 1/2 OCV if you are able to make a roll) but rule that, if you grab an opponent, you are considered to have made your touch PER roll whilst you maintain it. Having said that I've argued before that touch should act as a halfway house between targetting and non-targetting, int he right situation. Maybe semi-targetting (OCV and DCV -1 if a roll made).

 

Blindfighting is usually done with the combat sense talent for 15 points, but I'd certainly allow PSLs or limited skill levels to offset the penalties as well.

 

I know from doing a bit of judo that you don't need to be ble to see to wrestle, although it sometimes helps, but then you normally have more than just a single point of contact in that situation.

 

Ultimately though the thing that worries me aboutt he rule is that touch is clearly being seen as a very impostant sense in terms of coordination, and logically it should be, but Hero is not about logic, and a touch flash should be no more effective than a smell flash, given that they cost the same.

 

 

*Well, it is about build logic, just not the other sort

[Slice-n-Dice]

Re: Knockback Only, No Direct Damage

 

Wow, this has been awesome. From square one I thought it was going to be a "Oh yeah, this is how you build that". Well, I was wrong. the ideas here about flash touch seems more of a low level stun granade, or another effect of a flashbang grenade.

 

It would have a disorienting effect, kinda like flash sight but touch could be a sensory thing. I dont have the rules in hand pertaining to flash touch, but it seems a cv or dex penalty are appropriate.

 

I also realize that there really is no logic in gaming builds, if there were, it could get really boring.

 

Great discussion anyways, thanks for all the info!

 

 

SnD