Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

[Kal'El Wayne]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

Why do the Champions waste so much time being

...Champions?

 

Is what you're asking, from my point of view. If they didn't do that stuff then they're just WWE stars with powers and more clothes.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

Why do they spend so much of their time dealing with crime when they really ought to combating larger issues?

 

In a comic book universe, things like alien invasions, giant monster attacks, and armored despots trying to conquer the world are the larger issues -- and they're the issues that superheroes are uniquely qualified to handle.

 

Sure, they can and should help rescue kittens from trees and put out forest fires when they've got some downtime. But their real job is to protect humanity from the likes of Dr. Destroyer, Mechanon, and Eurostar.

[mirage]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

It has to do with Psych Disads and the Hero-System time scale.

 

Combats in Champions are brutally quick by television standards.

 

What are ya gonna do with the other 5.75 hours of the miniseries ?

 

What he said.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

Because it's Tuesday and there's nothing on TV

 

Being a good citizen includes watching HOUSE, yes?

[Clonus]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

You might ask another question: Why don't the Champions do more good?

 

Why do they spend so much of their time dealing with crime when they really ought to combating larger issues?

 

One obvious reason is because they possess no greater than normal ability to combat these allegedly larger issues. Or at least, no greater than any other celebrity you might care to mention. Another is that not only are they better equipped to fight crime (and alien invasions and other things that can actually be fought), but crime is a much larger issue in a comic book reality than it is in ours. In comic-book land 9/11 would have been tuesday, a bad guy scheme chiefly notably for it's extraordinarily low-tech unpowered nature. The world would not have been all that shocked by it. Bigger things would have happened in recent memory and far bigger things have threatened to happen.

[assault]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

In comic-book land 9/11 would have been tuesday' date=' a bad guy scheme chiefly notably for it's extraordinarily low-tech unpowered nature. The world would not have been all that shocked by it. Bigger things would have happened in recent memory and far bigger things have threatened to happen.[/quote']

 

The Battle of Detroit aside, the villains in most superhero universes are pretty universally unsuccessful.

 

In a typical universe, thwarting 9/11 would have been Tuesday, and its success would still have been shocking.

[Clonus]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

The Battle of Detroit aside' date=' the villains in most superhero universes are pretty universally unsuccessful.[/quote']

 

Their batting average is low, but their times at bat are plentiful and sometimes even a thwarted scheme has as much collateral damage as 9/11's success did.

[pinecone]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

why don't they just do their job and beat up bad guys?

 

So they don't look like Hancock?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

why don't they just do their job and beat up bad guys?

 

Because they aren't Iron Age supers, they're alloyed Silver and Bronze.

[Vulcan]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

Because they aren't Iron Age supers' date=' they're alloyed Silver and Bronze.[/quote']

 

Absoultely right. Iron Age supers kill/capture the bad guys and it ends there. Silver and Bronze Age supers usually stand for something more.

 

Somebody hit Hugh with the Rep stick, it seems I've hit him too recently...

[Cygnia]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

Absoultely right. Iron Age supers kill/capture the bad guys and it ends there. Silver and Bronze Age supers usually stand for something more.

 

Somebody hit Hugh with the Rep stick, it seems I've hit him too recently...

 

On it...

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

Well, in a world with supervillains, superheroes have to devote a significant amount of time and energy to fighting them, because in many causes they're the only people capable of doing so.

 

OTOH I remember an issue of the Roger Stern/Tom Lyle Starman series in which Starman helped combat a California wildfire. He didn't have quite enough power to just blow on it to snuff it out like Silver Age Superman; but he did spend days on the front line, digging firebreaks, flying huge water-drop canisters over the blaze, and evacuating people trapped by the flames. The narration of the story described how satisfying he found it to use his power for something more constructive than beating on bad guys.

[bubba smith]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

Got him vulcan

[The Weapon]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

So they don't look like Hancock?

 

Not looking like Hancock can be accomplished by simply staying sober for five minutes (admittedly Iron Man might find this difficult, but everyone other super is fine) and not destroying lots of property every 10 (harder for some than others). What they want to look like is paragons, examples. It's not about defeating the bad guys, it's about showing that virtue makes the world a better place.

[Tigereye]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

My tuppence worth from the perspective of my character Deuce, probably the most Iron-Agey of all the heroes in the campaign I'm in...

 

Although defeating evil is certainly most of the equation of being a superhero (and admittedly, I have no intrinsic superpowers I'm aware of), it is not the entire equation. At first, I was also cynical of such things as charity events, but then I thought back to organizations like the White Cross in the British Secret Service that brought comfort to widows and orphans within MI6. With the high profile for many superheroes, it stands to reason that the power and influence (and often money) they wield would also benefit many. I hesitate to use the modern term "role model" - it is a cliche, and I would reject such a label to such a flawed person as myself - but many average people admire and want to emulate the ethical and moral stances of superheroes. If they give money or time for a worthy cause because a hero supports it, this is even better. The public face is also an important one, and cannot be over-rated. I do not try to seek the public eye myself, but I will not stand in the way of my fellow team members from doing so, so long as they are not prima donnas about it.

 

Charity for the right causes creates moral distance between heroes and villains. Most villains will not create charitable organizations, or do it for the most cynical reasons. Not expecting any recompense is the way to do it. Many of my team members therefore give to charity anonymously or do so out of the public eye, but many do not, and let their profile "steer" the public. Fortunately, most of the causes our team support are difficult to clearly oppose without coming off as a monster in doing so (such as human rights, hunger, environmental and wildlife protection).

 

So too, perhaps a bit callously myself (I have been accused of having a ends justify the means mentality- why I'm not a role model), I've found that charitable events expose some villains at vulnerable moments. When you expect a villain to attack, you can launch a counter-ambush, and can turn the tables on them. Cheat them one better, I always say.

[pinecone]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

Not looking like Hancock can be accomplished by simply staying sober for five minutes (admittedly Iron Man might find this difficult' date=' but everyone other super is fine) and not destroying lots of property every 10 (harder for some than others). What they want to look like is paragons, examples. It's not about defeating the bad guys, it's about showing that virtue makes the world a better place.[/quote']

 

Human nature being what it is...just staying sober, and being responsable will Not keep people from resenting you...

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

[nexus]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

Absolutely right. Iron Age supers kill/capture the bad guys and it ends there.

 

That's a pretty sweeping generalization that isn't really correct. Even The Authority did more than "beat up bad the guys". Actually, it can be said that some "Iron Age" supers are more proactive in their actions to effect what they consider positive change in the world than many of their earlier counterparts who's stories focused on punching bad guys of the week much on the time. To extent it was a (often exaggerated but not entirely unmerited) criticism leveled at them particularly the Silver and early Bronze Age. "Iron Age" has really become short hand for "modern comics I don't like" around here.

[assault]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

Actually' date=' it can be said that some "Iron Age" supers are more proactive in their actions to effect what they consider positive change in the world than many of their earlier counterparts who's stories focused on punching bad guys of the week much on the time. To extent it was a (often exaggerated but not entirely unmerited) criticism leveled at them particularly the Silver and early Bronze Age. "Iron Age" has really become short hand for "modern comics I don't like" around here.[/quote']

 

There are a couple of aspects to this.

 

First of all, there was a difference between DC and Marvel back in the Silver and at least early Bronze ages. I'm not that much of a scholar on the Marvel side, but my impression is that their stuff tended more to the Senses-Shattering Slugfest than much of the contemporary DC material. What I am going to write about is pretty much all DC stuff.

 

DC characters spent a lot of time doing non-combat "good deeds". This was especially true of Superman, and, say, less true for Batman (who even then was more focussed on "fighting crime"), and much less true by the time you get to folks like, say, Hawkman.

 

In some cases, "good deeds" was pretty much all the character did. Supergirl was an example of this early in her career. It took a while before she started spending much time kicking booty.

 

In other cases, crime fighting tended to be something of a side-effect of attempts at "good deeds". The early Teen Titans, for example, were dedicated to helping teens in trouble. "It just so happened" that that would bring them into conflict with Bad Guys.

 

Later on, of course, "relevance" became the new fad. Ultimately, in fact, this led to what is considered to be the beginning of the Bronze Age, but, by definition, the material prior to this was Silver Age.

 

Once again, the Teen Titans were standard bearers in this development. Where they had earlier dealt with the "Generation Gap", attempted to encourage kids to stay in school, and joined the Peace Corps, they found themselves in increasingly anvilicious stories about peace, racism, sexism and so on.

 

And they got cancelled.

 

But, of course, that freed up Speedy to help start the Bronze Age.

 

So superheroes were engaging with "real world" "issues" way back when. They were trying to make the world a better place through non-combat activities way back before then, too. They were, in fact, trying to change the world for the better.

 

And, of course, some of them were trying to do that by fighting crime, too - don't forget that. Busting corruption networks in Gotham City would actually materially change that city for the better. It's just a shame about all those costumed lunatics...

 

Changing the world is what superheroes do. It may not be spectacular, but they've been doing it all along.

 

The Iron Age version is something else. It tends to be more spectacular. Sometimes it's bloodier.

 

Funnily enough, it's actually more "fantastic" than the late Silver/early Bronze stuff. The latter tended to refrain from "solving" problems like racism, world hunger or the like, while Iron Age stuff tends is less reticent, at least about the kinds of issues that can be solved with Super-technology or a quick bit of violence.

 

Of course, in the Real World, the pace of change tends to reflect that in the Silver/Bronze Age material, so arguably it's more realistic.

[nexus]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

So superheroes were engaging with "real world" "issues" way back when. They were trying to make the world a better place through non-combat activities way back before then, too. They were, in fact, trying to change the world for the better.

 

Yes, but of course, I didn't say they weren't. I said "some" Iron Age superheroes were more proactive in their efforts to change the world. And some are particularly when it comes to making major changes in the status quo of their worlds... when they do things like take over the United States. I was arguing against the broad brush that those bad old "Iron Age" superheroes never do anything but kick a**, go home and ruin the noble art of comics like they always do. There is a distinct disdain for whats called "Iron Age" on this board and it's usually aimed at the worst examples as if they were universal. There is allot drek in modern era comics but frankly, there was allot of drek in past eras too. And I actually have read a comic or two before so I really don't appreciate being lectured like I just picked up my first one last week and it was the silver foil edition of Bludsturm and Killgore

[DusterBoy]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

There's a scene in "New Avengers" where the team lands in a run-down neighbourhood, scaring two kids playing truant. Cap asks them "Shouldn't you be in school" and off they run.

 

Long story short: the Avengers are just standing around, being visible and naturally a news crew turns up. Luke Cage says that he that he made it condition of his enlistment that when they weren't fighting the latest threat, instead of just waiting around "and playing X-Box" the Avengers would pull on their cozzies and turn up somewhere and throw a scare into the local crims. His intent was also to embarass people who let a crack house operate right next to a school. He actually threatens to tear the crack house down with his bare hands if nothing is done.

 

It's a little more complicated than that, but that's the basic idea.

 

I would think that time spent being a good citizen is never time wasted.

 

Besides, when was not being able to do it all an excuse for not doing anything?

[assault]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

And I actually have read a comic or two before so I really don't appreciate being lectured like I just picked up my first one last week and it was the silver foil edition of Bludsturm and Killgore

 

That's nice.

 

Although I used your comment as a starting point, I wasn't particularly targeting what I wrote to you.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

There's a scene in "New Avengers" where the team lands in a run-down neighbourhood' date=' scaring two kids playing truant. Cap asks them "Shouldn't you be in school" and off they run. [/quote']

 

I hated that book. But that's just 'cause Bendis can't write dialog to save his life. His Cap sounds like his Luke Cage sounds like his Wasp sounds like his Spidey sounds like his two truant kids.

 

[nexus]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

To use one of the better known (and maybe infamous) examples of the difference between the "Iron Age" and other eras, take The Authority. They aren't really amoral or gleefully immoral, they just take a utilitarian attitude and respond to deadly force with deadly force the way a soldier or policeman would do. Jack Hawksmoor, for instance, says things like "During battle, I deliberately collapsed that building. Ten innocent people trapped inside it died. If I had not collapsed it, two hundred people would have died. Those are the grim mathematics of my job, and sometimes I have to do them in a split-second." They also take more deliberate actions such following an alien army from a parallel earth built on conquest, slavery, and rape back to their homeworld and destroying their home city.

 

The difference between the moods in most IA settings and, for example, the DC universe is that Wildstorm superheroes aren't protected from certain consequences by authorial fiat. The Justice League, the Avengers, etc will find a way to beat the bad guys without killing because the writers say so.

 

It would be impossible to never even accidentally kill even a thug. People fall down and hit their heads, have heart attacks, and stumble over rails, stray shots ricochet or blow through buildings in the case of extremely powerful supers. There would be bystanders injured and killed. This is depicted more in "Iron Age" settings like Wildstorm and The Ultimates. This isn't to say there is something wrong with writer's fiat or genre tropes. It's what drives fiction and I can enjoy both types of stories.

 

And there is the flipside and where it started to go downhill (and fast) in The Authority was when they started becoming gleeful, even eager killers that took joy in it. It wasn't a grim necessity or the wages of combat anymore. That and they declared themselves judge, jury and executioner, using their powers with lethal intent against targets that posed no threat to them. Yes, most of them were scum that would have gotten death sentences several times over if they were fairly tried but they never got that chance which is were things went very wrong in The Authority. It could be considered the slippery slope but, honestly, I think it was just looking for shock value and cheap thrills. Shame too, since there was allot of potential in that series But it became essentially superpowered gore/revenge porn with some political trappings.

[nexus]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

Although I used your comment as a starting point, I wasn't particularly targeting what I wrote to you.

 

Yeah, right. If you're supposedly not responding to me or addressing what I said don't quote me when you give your lectures.