Balancing Duplication

[Doc Samson]

Forgive me if this is a tired subject. How do you handle a player with Duplication? It seems alot has to be taken into accout to balance Duplication properly. Here is what we have tried in the past and the results of each.

 

1. Not allowing the power - In our current campaign, we have decided to unban all previously banned powers and combos. This has created some challenges but has proven to be worth the trouble for both the players and the GM.

 

2. Enforcing our campaign AP cap only - This does not seem to be enough. Though limiting the APs allowed in Duplication limits the points of the duplicates, each duplicate still has the potential to be as powerful as a normal character, just less versatile.

 

For example: our campaign is a 450 pt. campaign with a 75 AP cap. This limits Duplication to one 375 pt. duplicate, two 350 pt. duplicates, ect. Though two 350 pt. duplicates will be less versatile than a 450 pt. character, if each is capable of a full 75 AP attack, their combined damage can be much higher than that of a single character.

 

3. Enforcing a seperate AP cap on the duplicating character - This is where we are now. We are trying to hit a "sweet spot", but have yet to come up with a totally balanced guideline. We are currently considering a -5 AP cap for each doubling of duplicates the character can produce.

 

For example: A character with one 375 pt. duplicate, has a 70 AP cap (not including Duplication). A character that can produce two 350 pt. duplicates has a 65 AP cap. A character that can produce four 325 pt. duplicates has a 60 AP cap, and so on.

 

How do you guys handle Duplication? All thoughts and experiences are appreciated.

[Talon]

Re: Balancing Duplication

 

I haven't dealt with it much, but in general I would hope that the fact that each duplicate pays for Duplication provides much of the necessary balancing. A 375 point character might do the same damage as a 450 point character, but he's going to be weaker in some way.

 

In addition, I would judge the character's overall suitability, as with all characters, based on how they will usually go into combat. If the character will usually fight Duplicated, then I assess their combat abilities based on that. Perhaps they have the same offense but much less defense, so they can dish out a lot, but each Duplicate goes down fast (and the player doesn't care since he has more duplicates to run). If they are too powerful I suggest ways to tone it down.

 

If a 75 point drop in character points doesn't stop a character from hitting all the caps (damage, CV, SPD, etc.), then the caps are probably too low to start with.

 

(As another example, take Absorption. If a character is going to be able to charge their Absorption most of the time, I rate the character with those bonuses added in; if the Absorption is a rare thing, I don't.)

[Doc Samson]

Re: Balancing Duplication

 

I haven't dealt with it much, but in general I would hope that the fact that each duplicate pays for Duplication provides much of the necessary balancing. A 375 point character might do the same damage as a 450 point character, but he's going to be weaker in some way.

 

In addition, I would judge the character's overall suitability, as with all characters, based on how they will usually go into combat. If the character will usually fight Duplicated, then I assess their combat abilities based on that. Perhaps they have the same offense but much less defense, so they can dish out a lot, but each Duplicate goes down fast (and the player doesn't care since he has more duplicates to run). If they are too powerful I suggest ways to tone it down.

 

If a 75 point drop in character points doesn't stop a character from hitting all the caps (damage, CV, SPD, etc.), then the caps are probably too low to start with.

 

(As another example, take Absorption. If a character is going to be able to charge their Absorption most of the time, I rate the character with those bonuses added in; if the Absorption is a rare thing, I don't.)

 

Thank you for the input. I would like to point out that duplicates built on less points than the character, which is mandatory in our campaign due to the initial AP cap, do not also pay the Duplication cost.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Balancing Duplication

 

I'd eyeball the character and, if I thought the player was taking the Michael, I'd invite them out to the woodshed.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Balancing Duplication

 

I'd eyeball the character and' date=' if I thought the player was taking the Michael, I'd invite them out to the woodshed.[/quote']

 

"taking the Michael"?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Balancing Duplication

 

"taking the Michael"?

 

Sonic extraction of urinary fluid.

 

You know: taking the piss.

 

Seperated by a common language and all that

[Doc Samson]

Re: Balancing Duplication

 

Sonic extraction of urinary fluid.

 

You know: taking the piss.

 

Seperated by a common language and all that

 

Lol (for real, I'm still chuckling). Though all of my players are good players (roleplay well, get involved in the story, ect.) they all are also good powergamers. It could be said that they are almost always "Taking the Michael". It's a fun campaign, but sometimes it's tricky to tell what is going to be over the top (because most of the characters already have at least one or two very potent power builds).

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Balancing Duplication

 

Sonic extraction of urinary fluid.

 

You know: taking the piss.

 

Seperated by a common language and all that

 

"sonic"?

 

And I'm still not sure how "taking the Michael" relates to trying to abuse the rules. Does urination have a slang link to trying to get away with something in the UK?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Balancing Duplication

 

"sonic"?

 

And I'm still not sure how "taking the Michael" relates to trying to abuse the rules. Does urination have a slang link to trying to get away with something in the UK?

 

OK, taking the piss is a phrase we use over here to indicate that the person you are accusing of TTP is having a laugh at your expense, trying to get more than they are entitled to, lying or exagerating the truth.

 

There are a number of possible derivations, but one I particuarly like (but have no idea as to its provenance) is that piss, or urine, used to be an important commodity for the chemicals it contains, and sailors transporting it, and finding the idea of admitting hauling barrels or urine about somewhat embarrassing would lie about their cargo, and would be caught out in the lie witht he words: you are taking the piss. i mean that can't be true, can it - indeed it is probably someone taking the piss, but I like the story anyway.

 

Taking the Michael is the same thing. There are several derivations again, but the 'correct' use is taking the mick, or the mickey, which might be Cockney rhyming slang (Mickey Bliss: piss) or (perhaps more likely) a contraction of the word 'micturate'.

 

Anyway, Mick or Mickey is a contraction of the name Michael, so 'taking the Michael ' is 'taking the piss'.

 

Sonic extraction of urinary fluids is my own particular spin on it: taking th episs would be extracting urinary fluid, and you do it by words, hence sonic. Needs some work, I'll grant you.

 

Coming soon: tosser, scrote, The DBs, tactical chunder, the turtle's head and the great ass/arse debate.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Balancing Duplication

 

Thank you for the clarification, Sean. I find these things fascinating, and I apologize to the rest of you for the derailment.

 

There are a number of possible derivations' date=' but one I particuarly like (but have no idea as to its provenance) is that piss, or urine, used to be an important commodity for the chemicals it contains, and sailors transporting it, and finding the idea of admitting hauling barrels or urine about somewhat embarrassing would lie about their cargo, and would be caught out in the lie witht he words: you are taking the piss. i mean that can't be true, can it - indeed it is probably someone taking the piss, but I like the story anyway.[/quote']

I find this story to be a perfect example of taking the Michael. I find it totally implausible since urine can probably be transported much more efficiently in the bladders of the sailors, and it's not a commodity that's ever been in shortage.

 

Taking the Michael is the same thing. There are several derivations again, but the 'correct' use is taking the mick, or the mickey, which might be Cockney rhyming slang (Mickey Bliss: piss) or (perhaps more likely) a contraction of the word 'micturate'.

I figured that part of it was rhyming slang. Are you familiar with the expression over here of "slipping someone a Mickey"? It's short for "Mickey Finn," but I'm not sure what that's supposed to rhyme with. It refers to a poison or drug that you slip into someone's drink to knock them out (or maybe even kill them) so you can rob them, kidnap them, or whatever.

 

Sonic extraction of urinary fluids is my own particular spin on it: taking th episs would be extracting urinary fluid, and you do it by words, hence sonic. Needs some work, I'll grant you.

Fine. I was conjuring up images of a catheter that works by some type of sonic vibration.

 

Coming soon: tosser, scrote, The DBs, tactical chunder, the turtle's head and the great ass/arse debate.

I think I know most of those. There's a band called the DB's (decibels), but that's probably not what you're referring to. And I know what "chunder" means, but I don't see how it can be "tactical." I can think of a few things that "turtle head" might mean. I'm guessing it's the same as "prairie dogging."

 

[/derailment]

[Alibear]

Re: Balancing Duplication

 

If a prairie dog is a turd poking it's nose out of your arse, you are spot on.

 

 

Mickey Finn is any cocktail of drinks designed to get you rat arsed innit? A fruit (brandy) and grain (whisky) cocktail being the classic.

[CTaylor]

Re: Balancing Duplication

 

I don't know if it is a campaign power level or lack of really game-breaking twits in my life but so far after playing Hero for over 20 years I've not seen Duplication be broken or overpowered. In fact, most duplicate characters seem to be a bit underpowered, since they are each fewer points.

 

Multipower suffers even more from this effect, sure you can be a bunch of different forms... but each is a weaker form than any other character in the campaign. That assumes everyone has the same points to spend, of course.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Balancing Duplication

 

Thank you for the clarification, Sean. I find these things fascinating, and I apologize to the rest of you for the derailment.

 

 

I find this story to be a perfect example of taking the Michael. I find it totally implausible since urine can probably be transported much more efficiently in the bladders of the sailors, and it's not a commodity that's ever been in shortage.

 

Absolutely: that is why I appreciate it so much

 

 

I

figured that part of it was rhyming slang. Are you familiar with the expression over here of "slipping someone a Mickey"? It's short for "Mickey Finn' date='" but I'm not sure what that's supposed to rhyme with. It refers to a poison or drug that you slip into someone's drink to knock them out (or maybe even kill them) so you can rob them, kidnap them, or whatever.[/quote']

 

Mickey Finn = Gin*. I think we are reaonably familiar with the phrase on this side of the Atlantic, probaly die to all those noir thrillers we are required to watch at kindergarten.

 

 

Fine. I was conjuring up images of a catheter that works by some type of sonic vibration.

 

I'll have to work on my imagery.

 

 

I think I know most of those. There's a band called the DB's (decibels), but that's probably not what you're referring to. And I know what "chunder" means, but I don't see how it can be "tactical." I can think of a few things that "turtle head" might mean. I'm guessing it's the same as "prairie dogging."

 

[/derailment]

 

Er, the 'D' stands for 'Dog's', and 'The DBs' is normally considered a superlative. Decibel is usually abbreviated with a small 'd'. Mind you you have to distinguish that from 'dogging', which is something else entirely.

 

Tactical chundering is the positiviely Roman practice of self induced vomiting, with a view to clearing the way for more alcohol

 

Alibear nailed the Turtle's Head**: it is indeed the same as Prairie Dogging, or, indeed, Touching Cloth.

 

 

 

* This is a lie - it is not Cockney Rhyming Slang at all.

 

** Ouch!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Balancing Duplication

 

I don't know if it is a campaign power level or lack of really game-breaking twits in my life but so far after playing Hero for over 20 years I've not seen Duplication be broken or overpowered. In fact, most duplicate characters seem to be a bit underpowered, since they are each fewer points.

 

Multipower suffers even more from this effect, sure you can be a bunch of different forms... but each is a weaker form than any other character in the campaign. That assumes everyone has the same points to spend, of course.

 

A very effective brick can be built on 250 points in a 350 point game. If there are 16 of them, you are in real trouble, and all for 70 points. Mind you, I'd be spending quite some time in the woodshed if anyone tried that on.

[Wanderer]

Re: Balancing Duplication

 

For balancing Duplication, as long as said power is a secondary add-on to an otherwise substantial list of powers, and not the character's main gimmick (i.e. the Engineer instead of Jamie Madrox), I'm quite fond of using/allowing it with the following Limitation: "character suffers Dependency effects if any copy is brought within Range of any other". Negative effects can usually be modeled using rules for Dependency (STUN loss, Incompetence, and Weakness all work fine), with the time interval geared to 1 Phase, or 1 Turn at most. Justify it with whatever rubber science or pseudomystical babble you fancy: maybe too close duplicates cause harmful quantic resonances, or painful telepathic feedback.

 

This ensures that Duplicates can be easily and flavorfully used to real advantage in order deal with any sustained situation that involves an area too big for a single hero to cope with, or crises in multiple locations. E.g. dealing with large-scale natural disasters or battles, or dealing with multiple crises in different states or countries. Or even, theoretically, having one duplicate to cover civilian ID and the other to perform superhero work.

 

At the same time, this Limitation ensures that Duplication cannot be used to overwhelm a single combat with a flood of equally powerful copies. Within the same area, Duplicates can at most be used to make only one combined attack.

 

Since this Limitation all but removes the combat usefulness of the power, and makes it most of a flavor power, I recommend to give it an hefty value: -2, or -1 1/2 at the very least.

 

Using such a power build, it is heartily recommended that some or all of Ranged Recombination, Rapid Duplication, Easy Recombination, and a Mind Link between Duplicates, is used.

 

In my expereince, this is an effective way of dealing with Duplication's significant potential for abuse, while keeping it around for flavor reasons, and I heartily recommend it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Balancing Duplication

 

I'm back to eyeball/woodshed.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Balancing Duplication

 

A very effective brick can be built on 250 points in a 350 point game. If there are 16 of them' date=' you are in real trouble, and all for 70 points. Mind you, I'd be spending quite some time in the woodshed if anyone tried that on.[/quote']

 

This is very true. In Champs 4, the standard campaign was 250 pts. and 60 AP. We got pretty good at building decent 60 AP characters on 250 pts. I think the standard champs 5 campaign is also 60 AP but with an extra 100 pts.

[Watchman-BN]

Re: Balancing Duplication

 

Two categories come to mind (pick two from column A and 2 from column B, season to taste):

 

Mechanical

 

-Limit the points of the duplicates

-Limit the numbers of duplicates

-Be ruthless with combat from the perspective that the player must be ready each phase to explain what all duplicates do; otherwise they just stand there.

-Apply find weakness (etc.) to all duplicates if acquired on one.

-Require limitations on the duplication like side effects, slow recombine, feedback, etc.

 

Gamecraft

 

Things we have done or I'm planning to do:

-EVIL DUPES: some radiation accident creates extra duplicates, and something is wrong with them... the dupes are evil, the dupes slowly replace the good dupes, etc.

-SOLO DUPES: some radiation accident creates an extra duplicate who isn't part of "the collective". The dupe isn't evil, but their experiences, knowledge, etc., start to bleed into the psyche of the other dupes. That dupe may get captured, injured, etc. (combine with 'feedback' mechanic above).

-DEAD DUPES DON"T COMBINE: don't knock out duplicates, kill or capture them more routinely than you might with other heroes

-YOUR BLASTS MEAN NOTHING TO ME: have lots of adventures decided by effectiveness, not battle prowess. The extra points spent on Duplication help in combat, but they don't do squat for perks, skills, etc. that can help win the day.

-YOU! STAY BY THE HORSES. YOU! TEND THE FIRE.: come up with uses for the duplicates that make the player/PC important, but don't imbalance combat. Examples include: leave one duplicate with an important NPC to guard her; leave a dupe at the base to monitor communication; have the dupes split up to search for a clue, but only allow one of them to find anything important, etc.

-A TEAM OF THEIR OWN: don't allow duplicated and mindlinked characters to be a part of a team mindlink. Or, if they try, make it clear to all players that the extra chatter is incomprehensible to the team (e.g. which dupe is saying "help me, I'm being attacked!"? or all of them thinking it at once??) It surprising how not being mindlinked to the team makes a PC less effective than those who are mindlinked.

-SILLINESS: Allow persuasion of one dupe to affect all others (see my pointless thread below)

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Balancing Duplication

 

A thought, which I'm not necessarily advocating, I'm just throwing it out there as potentially more balanced/less abusive:

 

Instead of +5 points for 2x the number of duplicates, how about +1/4 Advantage for each 2x the number of duplicates.

 

RAW:

70 points can get you...

1 350-point Duplicate

2 325-point Duplicates

4 300-point Duplicates

8 275-point Duplicates

16 250-point Duplicates

32 225-point Duplicates

64 200-point Duplicates

125 175-point Duplicates

250 150-point Duplicates

etc.

 

This way, with the +1/4 Advantage:

70 points can get you...

1 350-point Duplicate

2 280-point Duplicates

4 230-point Duplicates (69 points, to be exact)

8 200-point Duplicates

16 175-point Duplicates

32 160-point Duplicates (72 points, to be exact)

64 140-point Duplicates

 

Is that fairer, more balanced?

[Fryguy]

Re: Balancing Duplication

 

Base on the discussion of Duplication, I have a question. Jamie is able to pick up objects and create duplicates who have said objects. I thought about creating an MP with OAF -1 & possible -1/2 representing foci he doesn't actually have but could pick up and use. But then it became messy when I built the slots and thought about the various types of weapons out there. Just small arms can be a real hassle. So then I thought about a VPP with the -1 speedster limitation "only with available materials" (used for entangles). However I only have 24 pts available. Any suggestions?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Balancing Duplication

 

Just consider the team to be that many characters bigger when considering challenges. It's not like Duplication can really give you anything that additional PCs wouldn't. In fact, it generally gives you more of the same, whereas more PCs would broaden the diversity of powers. So in a sense it's easier to deal with than more PCs would be (not to mention the fact that you don't have to actually put up with more snot-nosed players ).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Balancing Duplication

 

Base on the discussion of Duplication' date=' I have a question. Jamie is able to pick up objects and create duplicates who have said objects. I thought about creating an MP with OAF -1 & possible -1/2 representing foci he doesn't actually have but could pick up and use. But then it became messy when I built the slots and thought about the various types of weapons out there. Just small arms can be a real hassle. So then I thought about a VPP with the -1 speedster limitation "only with available materials" (used for entangles). However I only have 24 pts available. Any suggestions?[/quote']

 

Way to necro!

 

If I understand what you mean, if Jamie picks up a gun then creates a duplicate, the duplicate has a gun too?

 

I think the only legitimate way to do this is to build Jamie (and the duplicates) with a VPP to 'create' any object he picks up. Sort of a focus mimic pool.

[Fryguy]

Re: Balancing Duplication

 

If I understand what you mean, if Jamie picks up a gun then creates a duplicate, the duplicate has a gun too?

 

I think the only legitimate way to do this is to build Jamie (and the duplicates) with a VPP to 'create' any object he picks up. Sort of a focus mimic pool.

Yeah, I was afraid of that. I only have 24 pts to spend right now. I guess I could get around a 15 maybe 20 VPP out of it but I guess I will have to start saving.

[GAZZA]

Re: Balancing Duplication

 

There was an old APAzine article about this. This is not my work; I am pretty sure it was Dave Mattingly, but if I'm wrong, forgive me for the miscredit.

 

Let's assume you have two character ideas:

a) +20 STR, +20 STUN, +10 OCV, +10 DCV, +2 SPD [150pts]

+20 EGO, +10 OMCV, +10 DMCV, +2 SPD, Mental Blast 5d6 [150pts]

 

A 180pt character can purchase all of the powers in slot a, and with the remaining 30 points he can buy a 150pt Multiform for slot b.

 

Alternatively, he could buy:

 

Multipower, 150pt reserve [150]

All powers in slot a [15-f]

All powers in slot b [15-f]

 

Same cost, right? Except that if you want to buy a 3rd 150pt form, it will only cost you 5 points for the Multiform and another 15 for the Multipower. And it gets much cheaper for even more forms. (On the other hand if the forms have some things in common, the Multipower method allows you to get the cost break that Multiform doesn't, so sometimes the Multipower is cheaper for a small number of forms where, say, the INT EGO PRE of the character are the same in each).

 

But let's leave that aside for the moment: the point to be established here is that a Multiform can be regarded, in some sense, as a Multipower of characters. So now let's look at a slight variation:

 

c) +5 OCV, +5 DCV, Multipower 50pts with 10 fixed slots [150]

 

Combine this with a or b. No problem for the Multiform. But the Multipower cannot accommodate this character - it would have to have a Multipower slot that contained another Multipower, which is illegal.

 

This is the point: it can be argued that Multiforms that have power frameworks in multiple forms are, in effect, doing a very cheap equivalent of sticking a Multipower in a Multipower. It isn't exactly the same, but it is similar enough to warrant close supervision.

 

Duplication is a different but related kettle of fish. Very roughly, we could say that a 250pt character might buy a duplicate with the +1 altered duplicate advantage for 100 points. With the rest of his points he buys slot a; the duplicate gets slot b. Alternatively - and very very roughly - he could just buy all 300 points from slots a and b. So in this case Duplication saves about 50 points (and that's if we consider the advantage of attacking twice versus the penalty of being able to be attacked twice to be a wash - when if anything I'd say that the former often outweighs the latter).

 

For all three slots to be available, Duplicator needs to be a 266pt character (as Duplication will now cost him 116 points); the non-Duplicator needs 450 points. So Duplication has an advantage right out the door, and arguably Duplicates that use power frameworks should be very carefully monitored.

 

Of course power frameworks aren't the only cheap efficient character type out there, either - it's been pointed out that you can build bricks pretty cheaply as well, for example.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Balancing Duplication

 

Duplication is usually not the problem.

 

The problem is when they build a brick or speedster, then also buy duplication. Then you have, oh, 16 duplicates laying down 20d6 Haymakers. Or *shudder* 16 Speed 8 Martial Artists.

 

I'd look very carefully at the "comic book science" behind your duplicator. Then make sure the non-duplication powers fit the profile. IE, limit the duplicates, not duplication itself. Force the duplicates to have teamwork (thus having to make extra skill checks to really benefit greatly from the duplicates.)