Attunement Modifier?

[Era Scarecrow]

I have someone in our game, that our GM says qualifies as a 'Lore Smith'. Meaning the person would enchant items with magic, and if the item get lost/taken away, Ect, Instead of a Independant -2 (Lost Points), it would have a different modifier. However it hasn't fully been fleshed out yet.

 

I have a consideration, that shouldn't be too strong. I need some feedback on this.

 

Attunement +1/2

Built from:

Focus (Variable Focus +1) (Not in rulebook)

Extra time (-1/2 Full segment)

 

The idea behind it, is the character can add an ability to an item for temporarily or permenantly, and when he's tired of it on the item or gets a new one, can add it to that. I can see how it can cause some game ballance issues, but i've been building/rebuilding the items, and they cost pretty close to the same. So i'll explain it and you can tell me your thoughts on it.

(Only in some situations would this be allowed, it helps by being a replacement for Focus, Linked and Independant limitations, but with Extra time added on, say 6 hours to a week(to attune), lowers the cost for attuning and having the power readily avaliable.)

 

Attunement: +1/2

 

Takes a Full segment to attune a few Focus/item with a power, and it retains the power until attuned to something else, or willed by the attuner to be un-attuned. (Un-attuning is a zero phase action)

 

additional +1/4 double the number attuned with this power at once. (if you only have 1-2, instead of a lot of options)

Extra time: Starts at full segment (-1/2), time to attune focus with power.

 

Multiplier pool: This is intended where you could have a pool of, You can attune X number of items at once, (say you are a warlord, or a pirate captain), and you can attune your force's weapons all the same, And suddenly the crew decides to mutiny the captain? He can at will stop the attunement for all the weapons, suddenly he's in less of a pinch with regular weapons. The number you can do is anything 'attuned' but can't exceed it's AP count.

 

Making it.

 

Naked Modifier: AP=Highest Attunable power.

Extra time: Time to attune. Remember, Full phase extra time still there so -1/2 to your extra time. (The individual powers have to at least match, or exceed this value, if they exceed, it's upgraded to the level the power's length is for extra time)

 

Attunement +1/4 for each the first extra one, and all +1/4 after double it.

Other Disadv's can be put in here, Skill rolls for various smiths, Monks, those that have to spiritually attune themselfs, concentration throughout, Ect.

 

NOTE: In situations where you have duplicates, the attuned item does NOT split. Instead, if you wanted it to split, make a multiplier pool, and put all of them onto one weapon, when you split they will all be the same, and can be dis-abled at any moment. If there is only one, the original holds onto it, unless he specifies otherwise.

 

--------------

 

Personal notes: I'm not sure of the long term game ballance of the power, but i've experimented with a 'flame sword', which has 5 powers. +Pen to original Weap, HTH+Penetrating, Detect Evil, OCV+1, OCV+1 Vs Evil, DCV+1 vs Evil. It cost the same when built (without the base weapon), but doubling would take 5 slots and would cost 4-6 in the multiplier pool, Doubling each attunement cost 7-9 more instead.

 

In order for you to use the Multiplier pool, i was considering earlier using a +1/4 to the attunement so you can use that power with the multiplier pool, but that was when it was +1/4, not +1/2. Much higher it starts getting too expensive compared to the normal methods for it to make sense.

--

Side question. Extra time means the power activates after a period of time, so after you activate a power, you still have all your actions to act upon right?

 

Era

[Alibear]

Re: Attunement Modifier?

 

Your post is a bit confused. Can you say what a lore smith does without using Herospeak?

 

Sounds to me like you want a Focus of Oportunity, -1/2.

[Talon]

Re: Attunement Modifier?

 

I think this is Usable By Others (probably the "Differing Modifiers" section.

 

I wouldn't consider it a Focus on the ability to create the power, since the attuner can end the effect at any time, even if the weapons are not present.

[Era Scarecrow]

Re: Attunement Modifier?

 

Your post is a bit confused. Can you say what a lore smith does without using Herospeak?

 

Sounds to me like you want a Focus of Oportunity, -1/2.

 

 

 

Alright. I'm taking this from 2 different parts.

 

1) Hero rules. It states in the rules you can activate as many powers, attack abilities as you want and have, so long as you can pay the end for it. (if it requires all your attention, only one can be done at a time, if it requires gestures, only one at a time, if Verbal only one at a time). If you use more than one to attack, they are all based on the original attack roll (you attack with 6d6 energy blast, and a 2d6 flash eyesight, if you miss, both miss and you pay both)

 

2) There's no rule specifying a way to 'charge' or set a temporary enchantment/ability. There's some similarly, like Alchemy which it dictates takes 6 hours of work, a lab, other focus's, Ect.

 

If you end up making an Independant item (-2), you need other limitations with it. (Reduced End 0 -1/2) (Focus, you choose -1/4 to -1), Weapons and armor add appropriately.

 

These rules are simple and good for static items. Say though that i wanted to add to a current item, or shift my original +1d6 HKA Penetrating Fire (ED), from my sword to a spear? With GM's permission i can do that by adding the appropriate modifications and paying it off.

 

The rules state when you make a static item this way, if you loose it it's gone and will never come back (But i'm sure more gm's won't be that mean)

 

What if instead you could take the needed time, put abilities into a weapon temporarily, and improve those abilities as needed, spending a few hours or days having it 'attune' to you. Loose the weapon? You don't loose the ability. Instead of linking it permenantly to a focus/item, you spend the time every time you want to link it, and use it till you link it to something else.

 

There's a question if it would be unballancing, but that's for the player and hopefully gm to keep from going too far. I'm proposing an idea, but i need further feedback.

 

Era

 

Era

[Talon]

Re: Attunement Modifier?

 

I suggest you read "Differing Modifers" on page 276 of 5ER.

 

For example, say you want to "attune" a sword with the ability to deliver a blinding Flash 4 times a day. Start with:

 

Sight Group Flash 6d6 (30 Active Points); 4 Charges (-1), OAF (attuned sword; -1), No Range (-1/2), Real Cost 8 points.

 

[you could add Linked to sword attack; I didn't, if someone wants they can just tap someone with the sword.]

 

Then use the Differing Modifiers rules to apply the following to those 8 points:

Usable As Attack (Ranged, x8 targets; +2 1/4), 26 Active Cost. Extra Time: Full Phase (only to activate; -1/4), Real Cost 21 points. (Defense for Usable As Attack is not picking up the sword.)

 

[Add other "activation" limitations like Gestures or Incantations as needed.]

 

Voila, the character can grant the Flash power to up to 8 different swords. Since the "granting" power does not use a Focus, I would say the character can withdraw the power even if the Foci are lost.

 

(Also, I'm choosing to use the option that powers granted through a Focus don't require LOS to maintain; the GM could instead require 0 END and Persistent, or Uncontrolled, on the power. See page 273-4.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Attunement Modifier?

 

Perhaps not entirely on topic, but you could temporarily charge an item in a number of ways:

 

1. Transform would allow an object to have 'powers' until they faded over time (or as otherwise defined)

 

2. The 'Trigger' power modifier would allow an item to 'hold' powers until they are activated (for instance you could 'charge' a wand to hold one or more 'Fire Blast' spells by buying the Fire Blast spell with the trigger power modifier, and casting it (say) 20 times on the wand. The triger is pointing the wand and saying (in the Elder tongue) a number from 1 to 20.

 

3. Certain powers could be imbued with the uncontrolled power modifier and/or continuing charges (for instance you could enchant a silk shirt to be as tough as steel by placing an uncontrolled 'Armour' power using the shirt as a focus.

 

4. Similarly you could do much the same thing with a focus and the 'Useable By Others' power modifier.

 

Technically any power in a focus that is universal is an enchanted item, and unless it is independedt there will be a way to egt it back if you lose it.

 

'Focus of opportunity' (-1/2, or -1/4 if it is not obvious) has already been suggested - you can enchant any item that works for whoever has the focus, but the enchantment would only last a certain time before needing to eb reapplied to the same or a different focus.

 

Subject to GM approval you might get away with 'attuning' double the number of items for +5 points to the final cost, that being a reasonably staple Hero modifier.

 

Example:

 

Enchant sword:

 

+1 DCV level (5 points)

+1 pip HKA (5 points at 0 END 7 points

 

Total 12 points

 

Focus of opportunity (has to be a sword but it is not obvious that it is enchanted) -1/4

 

Total: 10 points

 

Enchant 2 swords simultanously + 5 points

Enchant 4 swords simultanously + 10 points

[Era Scarecrow]

Re: Attunement Modifier?

 

>>Focus of opportunity' (-1/2, or -1/4 if it is not obvious) has already been suggested - you can enchant any item that works for whoever has the focus, but the enchantment would only last a certain time before needing to eb reapplied to the same or a different focus.<<

 

I was curious on this as well, after i was thinking about it. Since in full consideration you can add damage onto an item for little to no cost. Ex.

 

1d6 HA: 3pt.

 

I recall in the rules, you can use as many attack powers as you want, but they all fall under 1 attack, all hit or miss. (except AOE rules differ )

 

That just makes me wonder if my +1/2 is too steep. I was also attempting it in this way.

 

Trigger +3/4 (Resets itself, used when focus is used, Ect)

Trigger +1/4 (When willed by attuner, the other trigger will be unset and never set again)

extra time (Full segment-1/2, to set both triggers for use)

 

the +5 for doubling, i considered that too. But when i attempted it in different forms, it messed up and was either way way too cheap, (Using the naked modifier as a multiplier pool), but would work for the individual items that you wanted to double attunements, but when assuming you don't need groups to qualify for a single weapon as the earlier example the multiplier pool might be allowed. But it's still up and to be considered.

 

Era

[Sean Waters]

Re: Attunement Modifier?

 

Ultimately it is about what fits comfortably in your game. There is a concern (sometimes) that if you make item enchantment too easy and 'cheap' that everyone will be running around with a magic sword and enchanted underwear.

 

The harshest way to do it is to have the character buy the item as an independent focus - that way it will be very difficult to get back any points you 'lose'.

 

Probably thee easiest way is a (very cheap) major transform (item to magic item, expanded group) which will cost less than 10 points and allow you (given time) to make pretty much any magic item and as many as you like.

 

An interesting interim point is to buy an 'enchant item' spell as a naked variable trigger advantage - that would mean that you could place spells (up to a certain AP cost) on items that activate when needed (for instance an armour spell that activates when the wearer of The Chain Mail Bikini Of Protection is hit by a sword - making the character tough against swords, but not against anything else. the point is that it is a reasonably expensive ability, is self limiting in that every enchantment is for a number of 'uses' only, and is likely to be quite draining as you will have to cast both the spell and the 'enchantment' metaspell.

 

Depends, like I say, what you want.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Attunement Modifier?

 

 

I was curious on this as well, after i was thinking about it. Since in full consideration you can add damage onto an item for little to no cost. Ex.

 

1d6 HA: 3pt.

 

I recall in the rules, you can use as many attack powers as you want, but they all fall under 1 attack, all hit or miss. (except AOE rules differ )

 

That just makes me wonder if my +1/2 is too steep. I was also attempting it in this way.

 

 

The thing with the focus of opportunity is that it IS cheap, but then you only get one item. You can attack with it as many times as you like or you can give it to someone else and they can attack with it as many times as they like, but there is only one.

 

To get two (subject to GM permission) you spend +5 points.

 

So, HA 5 points, HA -1/2 Focus of opportunity -1/2: 2 real points

 

You have a single item that grants +1 HA to your damage.

 

Two such items would cost 2+5=7 points, and four would cost 2+10, etc, etc.

 

If you can sell them you get a good return, but the customers get stroppy when the magic goes away (i.e. if you can 'enchant' four items, the magic goes away on the first when you enchant a fifth), but it is not that cheap a way to boost your groups abilities - a simple strength aid would be just as efficient, probably more useful, and cost about the same.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Attunement Modifier?

 

This may not be what you're looking for, but a thought occurs to me as you mention Independent:

 

Independent at -2 is similar to the "Charges Never Recover" which is also -2. But you can have longer than the standard recovery time for Charges for other additional limitation values. If the Charges recover every day, that's the standard and is -0. If they recover only after a week, that's an additional -1/2, etc.

 

So why not do something similar Independent? If you never get the points back, it's the standard -2. If it takes a year to get the points back it's -1.75. If it takes a season to get the points back, it's -1.5. If it takes a month, it's -1. If it takes a week, it's -1/2.

 

And taking the time to "get the points back" would usually involve some story/role-playing aspect, which in this case would involve whatever mystical enchantments etc., that you need to "attune" a new item.

 

For example, with this "lesser form of Independent" say at -1/2, if you lose your focus, you have to create a new one and perform some ritual magic on it and carry it on you at all times for a week before you got the power back. Maybe the ritual itself requires all your waking hours for a week, so you really can't do anything else except eat and sleep. Or maybe it requires simply carrying the item around for a week, while you go about your normal business, and you have to perform a fifteen minute ritual on the item each night before you sleep.

[Era Scarecrow]

Re: Attunement Modifier?

 

This may not be what you're looking for, but a thought occurs to me as you mention Independent:

 

Independent at -2 is similar to the "Charges Never Recover" which is also -2. But you can have longer than the standard recovery time for Charges for other additional limitation values. If the Charges recover every day, that's the standard and is -0. If they recover only after a week, that's an additional -1/2, etc.

 

So why not do something similar Independent? If you never get the points back, it's the standard -2. If it takes a year to get the points back it's -1 3/4. If it takes a season to get the points back, it's -1 1/2. If it takes a month, it's -1. If it takes a week, it's -1/2.

 

And taking the time to "get the points back" would usually involve some story/role-playing aspect, which in this case would involve whatever mystical enchantments etc., that you need to "attune" a new item.

 

For example, with this "lesser form of Independent" say at -1/2, if you lose your focus, you have to create a new one and perform some ritual magic on it and carry it on you at all times for a week before you got the power back. Maybe the ritual itself requires all your waking hours for a week, so you really can't do anything else except eat and sleep. Or maybe it requires simply carrying the item around for a week, while you go about your normal business, and you have to perform a fifteen minute ritual on the item each night before you sleep.

 

From how i understand independant works, is if you loose the focus, you loose the points. Period. In order to get another focus, you 'repay' the points. If it cost you 10pts for a great item, it will cost you 10pts to replace the item.

 

However, I've somewhat considered how you would do the charges bit. (Charges 1, Recoverable, Extended time for charges to recover, 1 week, -1 3/4)(I think this is right)

 

Correct me if i'm wrong, but the problem is

 

1) the item would then have to have 'continuous' on it, or some other means to allow you to use the power without a certain limit on how many times you can use it. Since as i understand, charges are 'usages' before the charges had to be replenished (Ex: A gun with cartriages, or a flashlight with batteries), otherwise i could put a number of charges on how many items i wanted to effect, instead of paying the +5pts for doubling.

 

2) Duration isn't the best described in the system, it's more 'turn on/off' as i recall. or 'turn on, when i get ko'd it turns off' and then 'turn on, and i can't turn it off'. I think the continous, persistant (still looking into) you can just simply say 'the effect lasts for 24 hours) and leave it be, with no other modifiers.

 

I've considered you could do a 'focus easily replacible) -1/4, but that seems kinda lame, i'm not sure the best way to do it. I suppose it could be: Focus (IIF, Easily replacible -1/4 (not a fixed focus type?, worth +1/4?)) + Extra time (-1/2 Full segment) = Attunement -3/4

 

But to me this seems like a way too easy problem for ballancing issues, depending on how far you can stretch a 'focus' use. Doing it that wa you could easily.

 

Barbashing bonus: 3d6 Ha(15ap), Attunement -3/4, Ha -1/2, Charges (1 -2): 3pts

 

In a barfight? Pick up beer bottles, stools, or anything useful, first segment normal damage, second segment, POW and the item breaks, dealing a whopping extra damage.

 

Era

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Attunement Modifier?

 

The idea behind it, is the character can add an ability to an item for temporarily or permenantly, and when he's tired of it on the item or gets a new one, can add it to that.

 

(snip)

 

Personal notes: I'm not sure of the long term game ballance of the power, but i've experimented with a 'flame sword', which has 5 powers. +Pen to original Weap, HTH+Penetrating, Detect Evil, OCV+1, OCV+1 Vs Evil, DCV+1 vs Evil.

Interesting ideas, have some Rep!

 

In Hero System, creating a magical item which is an enhanced version of a mundane item that has a Character Point cost, then the character must pay the cost of both the mundane item and the enchantment, even if he ordinarily could buy the mundane item with money alone. (paraphrased from Fantasy Hero, page 278).

 

So you need to buy the base weapon and the enhancements.

 

Let's look at your flame sword example. It might look like this:

 

[Note: a normal longsword (from page 481 of Fifth Edition Revised) is HKA 1d6+1, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (30 Active Points); OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4), STR Minimum (12; -1/2). Total cost: 11 points.]

 

Now, for our flame sword we'll remove the Real Weapon Limitation (you could leave it in if you wanted). It does more damage than a normal longsword, is Penetrating, can Detect Evil, gives +1 OCV, gives another +1 OCV only against Evil beings, and gives +1 DCV only against Evil beings. It takes 6 hours to enchant a normal longsword to make it a flame sword. So:

 

Flame Sword:

Cost Power

16 Flame Blade: HKA 2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Penetrating (+1/2) (60 Active Points); Extra Time (6 Hours, only to activate; -1 3/4), OIF (longsword of opportunity; -1/2), STR Minimum (12; -1/2)

5 Detect Evil: Detect Evil (PER Roll) (Sight Group), Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees), Range (15 Active Points); Extra Time (6 Hours, only to activate; -1 3/4), OIF (longsword of opportunity; -1/2)

1 Accurate: +1 OCV (5 Active Points); Extra Time (6 Hours, only to activate; -1 3/4), OIF (longsword of opportunity; -1/2)

1 Accurate Against Evil: +1 OCV (5 Active Points); Extra Time (6 Hours, only to activate; -1 3/4), OIF (longsword of opportunity; -1/2), Only Against Evil Beings (-1/4)

1 Evil Cannot Touch Me: +1 DCV (5 Active Points); Extra Time (6 Hours, only to activate; -1 3/4), OIF (longsword of opportunity; -1/2), Only Against Evil Beings (-1/4)

 

For a total of 90 Active Points and 24 Real Points.

 

To increase the number of flameswords, add Usable By Others at the appropriate level to each slot.

 

Here's the difficult thing - to make these enchancements on *any* mundane weapon, you'd have to buy an HKA with a big enough base to cover any mundane weapon plus the extra flame damage, plus a Variable Advantage to cover any Advantage the mundane weapon has plus any Advantage(s) you want the flame sword to add, plus +1 OCV (only if the base weapon has it), plus the Detect Evil and other OCV and DCV enhancements you want. Gets expensive...

 

The other way to do it is with a Variable Power Pool - which is probably *more* expensive than the above build.

 

The other other way to do it is with the Usable By Others with differing modifiers on the base build, as suggested by Talon - but I haven't fully worked through this method yet.

 

The other other other (non standard-rules) way to do it is to waive the requirement that the base item be paid for.

 

Hope this helps. I certainly had fun working through it!

[Era Scarecrow]

Re: Attunement Modifier?

 

I must appologize, i read through the 'extra time' disadv modifier again, in the 5ER rules, and it answered my question quite throughly.

 

It states Extra time in this way, Not word for word mind you.

 

1) Extra time is the amount of extra time it takes to activate a power. You can activate the power, and continue to move about and do other actions, when the power activates it's effects take place. (With the exception of an attack, then you can't move or do anything till the attack ends)

(I wonder.. What if you made a sword 3D6 HKA Extra time (1 Century) and had it conviently laying around for an enemy, would he be stuck unable to do anything while you go up, disarm him and turn him over to the authorities while he tried to attack you? I assume he could abort to dodge but i don't know..)

 

2) Extra time with HALF the disadv effect, can simulate charged weapons. Weapons once you charge, they will hold the charge and you can use the power without waiting extra time. (magical sword, wand, Ect.), Minimum -1/4

 

With that in mind, a 6hour wait would actually only be worth 1min's worth of extra time. Unless you have more than 6 hours to devote to waiting. (But just picking up a sword and it becoming magical over, say a week, this is perfect.. For those that just leak power out to anything magical)

 

It does greatly increase the cost, but at the same time, covers about the same thing.

 

So, i believe then..

 

Attunement modifier = -3/4

Focus (Item type of opportunity -1/2)

Extra time (-1/4, Full segment, further time is half the modifier)

 

If it's a ceremony (this sword is passed down from generations, say these words to activate it, or a wizard charging it) Ect, assuming you have a quiet place, add gestures (complex, throught -1), and incantations (complex, both hands, throught -1), can help with the costs and keep it respectible.

 

I appologize for not finding my own mistakes earlier.

 

Era

 

PS: I didn't build the original sword, i was told what it was and rebuilt it by the GM's ruling and guidelines. Which is i believe the following

 

Flame sword 9pts: (I think this is right, for the sword i'm basing it on)

1D6 HKA, Penetrating, 0END, OAF-1, INDEP, STRMIN 12

1D6 HKA ED FLAME, Penetrating, 0END, OAF-1, INDEP, Linked, NoSTR

OCV+1, OAF, INDEP, Linked

OCV+1 Vs Evil (Like above + limited -1)

Detect evil (one thing, radius), (Also like above)

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Attunement Modifier?

 

From how i understand independant works' date=' is if you loose the focus, you loose the points. Period.[/quote']

Yes, we all understand that. I may not have been clear in my post. I'm talking about a different limitation, based on the general idea of Independent. Instead of the "all-or-nothing" nature of Independent, there could be a continuous spectrum:

 

With no limitation (-0), if the power is lost (Focus stolen or broken, power Dispelled, etc.) you can get it back immediately (or almost immediately, go back to base and get a new one or whatever).

 

With the Independent limitation (-2), if the power is lost, you *never* get the points back.

 

At various levels of limitation in between, you can get the points back, it just takes a lot longer than going back to headquarters and picking up a spare.

 

So how long should it take for each value of the limitation? Well, there is already a similar precedent in the Charges limitation rules. Normally, charges recover each day, but for increase limitation value, they can recover less frequently than that, all the way up to "Charges Never Recover" at -2. Coincidentally, that's the same value as Independent which is essentially "Points spent on a lost power never come back". So why not use the same values? Here they are in a convenient table:

 

-0 = No limitation, a lost focus is easily replaced, cp are not lost.

-1/2 = a lost focus can't be replaced for at least a week, cp are "lost" for that week.

-1 = a lost focus can't be replaced for at least a month, for a whole month those cp are "lost"

-1.5 = a lost focus can't be replaced for at least a season

-1.75 = a lost focus can't be replaced for at least a year, the cp do not come back until at least a year has passed.

-2 = Independent, a lost focus can only be replaced by spending additional points, cp are lost permanently.

 

What I am proposing really has nothing to do with Charges directly. I just took the example from the Charges table as a reasonable guideline for the values of this "Lesser Independence" Limitation. You can certainly adjust the values as you see fit. I happen to think they're probably just about right as-is.

 

And I aslo suggest that regaining the lost points should require more than just time passing. There should be some "ritual" or role-played scenario or some other requirement or effort on the part of the character which restores the points or the item, or allows a new item to be "attuned." This ritual or effort might involve a week's worth of crafting and labor at the -1/2 level, an hour long daily prayer ritual every morning for a month at the -1 level, etc., all the way up to a long and arduous quest that takes a whole year (or more) at the -1.75 level.

[Era Scarecrow]

Re: Attunement Modifier?

 

-0 = No limitation, a lost focus is easily replaced, cp are not lost.

-1/2 = a lost focus can't be replaced for at least a week, cp are "lost" for that week.

-1 = a lost focus can't be replaced for at least a month, for a whole month those cp are "lost"

-1.5 = a lost focus can't be replaced for at least a season

-1.75 = a lost focus can't be replaced for at least a year, the cp do not come back until at least a year has passed.

-2 = Independent, a lost focus can only be replaced by spending additional points, cp are lost permanently.

 

I see what you are saying. And it's a good guideline, based on similar limitations that is stated in the book.

 

-1 only works half the time (only on WOMEN)

-2 extreamely limiting, or works under specific circumstances (During a full moon (3-4 days in a month, and at night))

-3 Super limiting (i don't recall the exact limitation, Works 1-2 days out of the year, Ect.)

 

Need to add the -1/4 for replacable once a day, although charges by default restore once a day, this isn't charges you recommend. oh well

 

 

Era