HTH combat questions

[Coyotecloudchas]

Just wanted to ask you guys how you handle some HTH combat questions in your Fantasy Hero campaigns.

 

1) I have always gone with an OCV max of 13 (with the exception of Block maneuvers) and no limit on DCV. This tends to create the longer Robin Hood style duels between master fencers I was looking for in my campaign - DCV can be significantly higher than OCV so it can be very tough to hit someone who is dodging or blocking.

 

However here is the problem: let's say the character has trained his Combat levels to OCV 13 and then wins a magic item that boosts his DEX or his OCV, or simply learns a new Martial maneuver which grants an OCV bonus. I usually tell him that his leftover combat levels are to be used for DCV only. Not too bad. However, then it breeds a new set of questions like - how about when I do a Move Through or Called chest shot, then can I use the extra levels to get back to OCV 13?

 

2) I was running an adventure the other night where the PC was SPD 4 and 15 DEX. His opponent was an animal that was SPD 4 and 14 DEX. After a turn or two he realized lowering himself to SPD 3 was better, and he wished he was a lower DEX! What would happen is that he would save his action and then Dodge the attack, but he would stop dodging on his next action at 15 DEX before the animal attacked again, and would have to dodge again to avoid being hit. He never had any open actions to counterattack with. On the other hand, if he lowered himself to SPD 3 he could cancel to Dodge on his phases 8 and 12 actions and have a free phase to attack the animal on Phase 4 every turn.

Obviously this is counterintuitive and doesn't make any sense. Is there a rule that allows a character to voluntarily lower their DEX only for purposes of their order in combat? OR allow a SPD 4 character to act on phases 4, 7, 10, 12 without being forced to hold their action?

 

Just curious if you guys ever run into these questions.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

Just wanted to ask you guys how you handle some HTH combat questions in your Fantasy Hero campaigns.

 

1) I have always gone with an OCV max of 13 (with the exception of Block maneuvers) and no limit on DCV. This tends to create the longer Robin Hood style duels between master fencers I was looking for in my campaign - DCV can be significantly higher than OCV so it can be very tough to hit someone who is dodging or blocking.

This can be extremely boring and make combats take an inordinate amount of time. OCV and DCV are intended to be kept somewhat in balance; the Dodge and Martial Dodge options exist to allow DCV to scale up.

 

However here is the problem: let's say the character has trained his Combat levels to OCV 13 and then wins a magic item that boosts his DEX or his OCV, or simply learns a new Martial maneuver which grants an OCV bonus. I usually tell him that his leftover combat levels are to be used for DCV only. Not too bad. However, then it breeds a new set of questions like - how about when I do a Move Through or Called chest shot, then can I use the extra levels to get back to OCV 13?

 

This is one of the problems of caps -- it causes artificial imbalances that ripple out to cause illogical outcomes.

 

 

2) I was running an adventure the other night where the PC was SPD 4 and 15 DEX. His opponent was an animal that was SPD 4 and 14 DEX. After a turn or two he realized lowering himself to SPD 3 was better, and he wished he was a lower DEX! What would happen is that he would save his action and then Dodge the attack, but he would stop dodging on his next action at 15 DEX before the animal attacked again, and would have to dodge again to avoid being hit. He never had any open actions to counterattack with. On the other hand, if he lowered himself to SPD 3 he could cancel to Dodge on his phases 8 and 12 actions and have a free phase to attack the animal on Phase 4 every turn.

Obviously this is counterintuitive and doesn't make any sense. Is there a rule that allows a character to voluntarily lower their DEX only for purposes of their order in combat? OR allow a SPD 4 character to act on phases 4, 7, 10, 12 without being forced to hold their action?

 

Just curious if you guys ever run into these questions.

 

The advantage of being quicker is to a) go first or hold to see what someone else is doing and attempt to DEX off to interrupt it.

 

If you don't want to do either of those things and go on the defensive, then you aren't in a good place.

 

If this is a common problem for the character they might want to consider learning the Defensive Strike Maneuver to get the best of both worlds.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

I don't see why holding your action is a bad thing. The character is faster than the animal. Either:

 

A) make an attack

stick to defending

 

The faster character has control of the fight. Unless he surprises the animal, it is going to be a back and forth thing.

 

If the character were SPD 3 going up against the animal, he is in even more trouble. If he were attacking on SEG 4, have the animal Dodge and show him what it's all about. SPD 4 is better, no matter which way you slice it.

 

Try the Feint skill, or Blocking. The issue here is you have 2 opponents that are essentially identical and that is going to be a more balanced fight. I don't see any issue with the system.

[Coyotecloudchas]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

 

This is one of the problems of caps -- it causes artificial imbalances that ripple out to cause illogical outcomes.

.

 

-- If I didn't limit OCV then it throws the whole campaign out of balance. One character can get OCV 20, and one has OCV 4. One has no chance to hit the master villain, one can easily do Called Shots to the eye socket. I have never run a campaign where NONE of the characters were interested in making themselves better in combat, and just happily spent all their XP on non-combat skills.

 

If the character were SPD 3 going up against the animal, he is in even more trouble. If he were attacking on SEG 4, have the animal Dodge and show him what it's all about. SPD 4 is better, no matter which way you slice it.

 

-- Only if the animal uses tactics in combat does this make sense. In the case of the animal just mindlessly attacking on its DEX and SPD then a slower character actually has the advantage of being able to dodge during all of the animal's phases and still freely attack. I guess what you're saying is you should always give even mindless zombies combat awareness so they will save their actions against slower characters?

[Legendsmiths]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

If the animal has SPD 4 then it is a predator. If you are running a tiger like some damage delivery system, then I don't think you are doing such animals justice. You also seem to think that not attacking and standing there is better than having actions and choices. Dodge is not absolute. Predators are not stupid, and they don't have to be stupid in combat. They can hold, abort, block, and feint. Multiple power attacks: grab, takedown, and bite. Sure, 1 tiger isn't really a threat for a group, but it will hunt them and take them out one by one.

 

As for having combat monsters in your game, I think you need to work with your crew. They obviously think that being masters of combat is important for the game. Make it unimportant. Make combat not that pivitol. Sure, have lots of it, but have it solve nothing. But, if you are running a combat only game then I think I agree you have to impose artificial limits.

 

I have a fantasy game where one character has an OCV of 14 and another has a 4. The guy with a 14 can almost always hit anything he shoots at, multiple times. Does it matter? No. Is he having fun? I suppose so, he keeps showing up. I personally would spend my points elsewhere and go with an OCV of 10, but that's just me. I like a challenge.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

-- If I didn't limit OCV then it throws the whole campaign out of balance. One character can get OCV 20, and one has OCV 4. One has no chance to hit the master villain, one can easily do Called Shots to the eye socket. I have never run a campaign where NONE of the characters were interested in making themselves better in combat, and just happily spent all their XP on non-combat skills.

 

 

What Im saying is that if you are going to limit OCV, then you need to use similar limits on DCV.

 

-- Only if the animal uses tactics in combat does this make sense. In the case of the animal just mindlessly attacking on its DEX and SPD then a slower character actually has the advantage of being able to dodge during all of the animal's phases and still freely attack. I guess what you're saying is you should always give even mindless zombies combat awareness so they will save their actions against slower characters?

 

My point was that by opting to hold and then just Abort, the player with the higher DEX SPD 4 is basically ceding the advantage of having a higher DEX. That's not the systems fault, and its not a question of whether the attacker is using tactics or not -- it's the fault of the player exercising poor tactics via their character.

[Maur]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

I was running an adventure the other night where the PC was SPD 4 and 15 DEX. His opponent was an animal that was SPD 4 and 14 DEX. After a turn or two he realized lowering himself to SPD 3 was better, and he wished he was a lower DEX! What would happen is that he would save his action and then Dodge the attack, but he would stop dodging on his next action at 15 DEX before the animal attacked again, and would have to dodge again to avoid being hit. He never had any open actions to counterattack with. On the other hand, if he lowered himself to SPD 3 he could cancel to Dodge on his phases 8 and 12 actions and have a free phase to attack the animal on Phase 4 every turn.

 

If he's only going at a SPD of 3 versus the animal's SPD4, then the animal gets one more action over the player. It can jump him on 3 so he aborts his 4 to try and defend costing him his 4, so it tries again on 6, he aborts his 8 to defend. 8 goes by and he just stands there. It jumps him again on 9 which he aborts his 12 to defend. So now it gets to freely jump him on 12 without him having an action to abort.

[caris]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

Ok, here are my takes on things

 

Just wanted to ask you guys how you handle some HTH combat questions in your Fantasy Hero campaigns.

 

1) I have always gone with an OCV max of 13 (with the exception of Block maneuvers) and no limit on DCV. This tends to create the longer Robin Hood style duels between master fencers I was looking for in my campaign - DCV can be significantly higher than OCV so it can be very tough to hit someone who is dodging or blocking.

 

However here is the problem: let's say the character has trained his Combat levels to OCV 13 and then wins a magic item that boosts his DEX or his OCV, or simply learns a new Martial maneuver which grants an OCV bonus. I usually tell him that his leftover combat levels are to be used for DCV only. Not too bad. However, then it breeds a new set of questions like - how about when I do a Move Through or Called chest shot, then can I use the extra levels to get back to OCV 13?

 

As I’m sure you have noted, the rules don’t address this so it is up to you to decide.

 

Generally, my cap is just that it represents the highest I will let something go in game. It does not limit what the character can buy or get, just what they can use. So the highest OCV I let a player generate is X, generally, I do not let Manuevers with negative OCV penalties get to X, unless penalty/limited use skill levels are involved.

 

I have played with GMs that do not let the player buy/have anything that would let them exceed the cap. Therefore my character could not buy enough 8pt skill levels to achieve an OCV of X+1, even if the I promised the character would never try to use an OCV of X. I was never allowed to have magic items that would give me an OCV of X+1. So, in those campaigns, the extra levels to offset the penalties came up. A standard Grab would always cap out at 11 for anyone in the game.

 

2) I was running an adventure the other night where the PC was SPD 4 and 15 DEX. His opponent was an animal that was SPD 4 and 14 DEX. After a turn or two he realized lowering himself to SPD 3 was better, and he wished he was a lower DEX! What would happen is that he would save his action and then Dodge the attack, but he would stop dodging on his next action at 15 DEX before the animal attacked again, and would have to dodge again to avoid being hit. He never had any open actions to counterattack with. On the other hand, if he lowered himself to SPD 3 he could cancel to Dodge on his phases 8 and 12 actions and have a free phase to attack the animal on Phase 4 every turn.

Obviously this is counterintuitive and doesn't make any sense. Is there a rule that allows a character to voluntarily lower their DEX only for purposes of their order in combat? OR allow a SPD 4 character to act on phases 4, 7, 10, 12 without being forced to hold their action?

 

Once again, the rules only talk about lowering STR and SPD, not other Characteristics. This probably, in my opinion, reflects an assumption that most of the time lowering a Characteristic is undesirable. Now, the fact that a character can choose to use less than their full STR, and lower their SPD, would imply that a character can lower/use less than full of the other Characteristics.

 

The question becomes how to do it fairly, so that lowering Dex does not become too much better than holding. These are my answers. First of all, I would say that the drop would have to apply to the character’s base OCV and DCV as well as the Dex, with a minimum penalty of –1 CV(in the case of EGO, rather than having a minimum CV penalty, Mental Powers will only have to work against the lower EGO for level of effect). Second, the character has to declare that it are lowering it’s Dex at the beginning of one of the character’s Phases, and the Phase that the character declares it on is still done at the character’s normal Dex. The lower Dex will not be in affect until the character’s next Phase.

 

Probably, not a perfect solution, but it will work for me.

 

Mind, you, I agree with other players. You were not playing the animal as an animal, but as something that was berserk. Most animals, if not wounded, starving, sick, responding to a conditioned response or some other imperative, will not stay in a fight to the death. I’ve seen animals when faced with a difficult opponent wait for an opening to attack. Feints are common. Heck, they even do PRE Attacks.

 

Unfortunately, I do not know enough about the situation to be able to say what other tactics the player could have/should have used in this situation. I would have at least seen what would have happened if I attacked once with all my skill levels in DCV. If the animal is attacking all OCV, I would have had about even odds to hit it. Particularly, if I could generate a much higher than 13 DCV by doing so. Matter of fact, to be honest, if I could generate a DCV of 16 or better in your campaign, just with Skill Levels, I’d probably just not worry a lot about Dodging or Blocking, and trust to the bell curve.

[caris]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

If he's only going at a SPD of 3 versus the animal's SPD4' date=' then the animal gets one more action over the player. It can jump him on 3 so he aborts his 4 to try and defend costing him his 4, so it tries again on 6, he aborts his 8 to defend. 8 goes by and he just stands there. It jumps him again on 9 which he aborts his 12 to defend. So now it gets to freely jump him on 12 without him having an action to abort.[/quote']

 

That would depend on what the PC did to defend on 3. If he Dodged, that DCV bonus from the Dodge would carry over until the beginning of the PC's Phase on 8. The PC could also start to Block on 3 and as long as it is successful that would also carry on to the beginning of the PC's Phase 8. Since 8 is not a Phase that the Animal and the PC would have in common, the PC could act on 8, abort it's 12 action to a continuing defensive action like Dodge or Block when the creature attacks on 9 that would carry through the creatures actions on 12 and 3. At this point the for the rest of the combat the SPD 3 character will Attack on their Phase 4, and Abort their 8 and 12 Actions. This tactic only works on a SPD 4, that doesn't think about the situation.

 

The problem with this tactic is that the SPD 4 character can easily counter it by careful use of Held Actions. Holding action on 3 until the SPD 3 character acts, puts the faster character back in control, because it creates a situation where, at worse, both of them have held actions. (This assumes that the GM requires that held actions be declared until a specific condition like "I hold until the opponent takes an action" or "I hold until my ally starts to run.") If the GM lets the SPD 4 character hold its action until either the SPD 3 character acts or the bottom of a Segment even better. Now the SPD 4 character can force the SPD 3 character to:

 

always Attack when the SPD 4 character has a Phase to use on a Defensive Action

 

or

 

blow all of his actions on defensive actions

 

or

 

risk an Opposed Dex Roll to see which blow lands first

[caris]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

Also, you might want to check around in the Hero System Discussion board. Some of the alternative systems to the SPD chart, might address the problem your PC was having with the animal. They all tend to randomize things, so I don't know if you and your players would consider that a positive or negative. (Caris, no like random initi..., random init..., when order people go changes willy nilly! Caris, smash!)

[Coyotecloudchas]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

Thanks for all the comments all, especially Caris!

 

I spoke with the players and they agreed on the SPD issue that simply giving foes enough combat awareness to save their actions until a character stops dodging makes sense even for beserk animals or zombies, and gives players with higher speed the advantage. In this particular example, the "animal" was a spirit wolf attacking the characters astral projection in a spirit journey. I substituted the characters PRE for STR, EGO for DEX, and SPD was based on INT. The mage was SOOO excited that he would finally be the fastest one in combat and the warriors would be the slow ones, and SOOO disappointed that the rules seemed to cancel out his new SPD/DEX boost when the spirit was simply mindlessly attacking him.

 

On the OCV limit issue, I guess I will simply have to deal with it on a case-by-case basis. At the beginning of the campaign when everyone is OCV 5-10 and most foes DCV is in the 3-6 range, its not a problem. When they start building their combat levels and getting powerful magic items that boost their OCV, then HTH combat gets more complicated. I do allow characters to exceed OCV 13 if they do something spectacular with Acrobatics or Sleight of Hand, but usually that's about it. The DCV levels can get really high, but I don't allow levels for DCV only and they only get DCV vs. Range Attacks with Combat or Overall levels which are expensive in points. The high DCVs possible force the characters to be creative with their attacks ("I pin that slimy duelist to the wall with the bar table!"), and makes Warriors somewhat less effective than mages (who have ranged and EGO attacks). This is fair because mages have to pay a lot of points for their spells, while the warriors don't have to pay points for equipment. A popular tactic in this campaign is to have the warriors form a shield wall in front of their "heavy artillary" - the mage with the EGO attack. It all works out in the end!

[Zeropoint]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

If the player is faced with an opponent that has the same SPD, and lower DEX, which is attacking mindlessly, and LOSING . . .

 

Then that player is doing something wrong. Seriously wrong.

 

Is the player's character seriously outmatched by the beast? To where he simply can't afford to take a hit, at all? If he's committed to using all his actions to Dodge, he's already given up the fight.

 

I'm really failing to grasp how having fewer actions than your opponent could be an improvement, or how NOT having the option to act first could be an advantage.

 

Hero combat rewards people who use their heads; it's not about just standing there trading blows until someone falls and someone walks away.

[Coyotecloudchas]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

If the player is faced with an opponent that has the same SPD, and lower DEX, which is attacking mindlessly, and LOSING . . .

 

Then that player is doing something wrong. Seriously wrong.

 

Is the player's character seriously outmatched by the beast? To where he simply can't afford to take a hit, at all? If he's committed to using all his actions to Dodge, he's already given up the fight.

 

I'm really failing to grasp how having fewer actions than your opponent could be an improvement, or how NOT having the option to act first could be an advantage.

 

Hero combat rewards people who use their heads; it's not about just standing there trading blows until someone falls and someone walks away.

 

Sorry, but its pretty simple. Assume a SPD 4 character is facing a SPD 4 Mashing Machine with one less DEX. The Automaton, being mindless, attacks whenever his phase and DEX comes up. Unfortunately for the character the Mashing Machine is a huge sledgehammer and he can't afford to be hit and mashed into putty. He dodges the hammer blow, but since they are the same SPD and he is forced to act first because of his higher DEX he stops dodging before the next blow and must wait to avoid the next attack. He is forced to either run out of range of the mashing machine on his higher DEX or Hold his Action to dodge again. And so on.

 

However, then he realizes that if he slows to SPD 3 then when the hammer swings for him on Phase 3 and he cancels his Phase 4 action to Dodge, then he will still be dodging when it swings again on Phase 6 and he lives! On Phase 8 he can now smash the machine's gears with his wrench. When the Masher throws a pound on him on Phase 9, he cancels his Phase 12 action to Dodge. He is still dodging when phase 12 rolls around and lives again! By intelligently SLOWING down to SPD 3 he proves victorious!

 

Now if the automaton had an ounce of sense, as the others were pointing out in the intelligent predator example above, it would wait for the SPD 3 character to stop dodging and then swing again. Then our PC would be doomed!

[Thia Halmades]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

Just wanted to ask you guys how you handle some HTH combat questions in your Fantasy Hero campaigns.

 

1) I have always gone with an OCV max of 13 (with the exception of Block maneuvers) and no limit on DCV. This tends to create the longer Robin Hood style duels between master fencers I was looking for in my campaign - DCV can be significantly higher than OCV so it can be very tough to hit someone who is dodging or blocking.

 

However here is the problem: let's say the character has trained his Combat levels to OCV 13 and then wins a magic item that boosts his DEX or his OCV, or simply learns a new Martial maneuver which grants an OCV bonus. I usually tell him that his leftover combat levels are to be used for DCV only. Not too bad. However, then it breeds a new set of questions like - how about when I do a Move Through or Called chest shot, then can I use the extra levels to get back to OCV 13?

 

2) I was running an adventure the other night where the PC was SPD 4 and 15 DEX. His opponent was an animal that was SPD 4 and 14 DEX. After a turn or two he realized lowering himself to SPD 3 was better, and he wished he was a lower DEX! What would happen is that he would save his action and then Dodge the attack, but he would stop dodging on his next action at 15 DEX before the animal attacked again, and would have to dodge again to avoid being hit. He never had any open actions to counterattack with. On the other hand, if he lowered himself to SPD 3 he could cancel to Dodge on his phases 8 and 12 actions and have a free phase to attack the animal on Phase 4 every turn.

Obviously this is counterintuitive and doesn't make any sense. Is there a rule that allows a character to voluntarily lower their DEX only for purposes of their order in combat? OR allow a SPD 4 character to act on phases 4, 7, 10, 12 without being forced to hold their action?

 

Just curious if you guys ever run into these questions.

 

On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. Tis a silly place!

 

Point being. You don't need to cap anything. You CAN. But I would caution against it. Not because I haven't done it; but my caps are DESIGN caps, as in, "When you're genning your character, don't go beyond a total of 8-10 OCV/DCV." Which a) gives people an excuse to branch out, keeps things in balance for the most part with the mooks & such, and c) saves me from worrying about the PCs steam rolling everything with their l33t 2hit r0lz, LOLZ.

 

Where was I? Oh yes.

 

So I would definitely dump the whole mess, let everyone redraft to balance your OCV/DCV levels back out, and then roll from there.

[braincraft]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

If your opponent has a slightly lesser initiative order and equal or greater capabilities in all other respects, you're not going to do well no matter how you futz around with the SPD chart.

 

Unless he plans on Dodging every round until the tiger drops dead from exhaustion, your guy is gonna have to take a chance dropping his defense to make an attack.

 

Your hard caps are pretty arbitrary. If you want fights to take longer, use more defensive actions, buy more defensive powers and stats (like Combat Luck or extra BODY), and allocate resources more conservatively (like using your combat skill levels for defense). And, of course, don't let anyone buy their OCV or DCs ridiculously high.

[Manic Typist]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

Sorry, but its pretty simple. Assume a SPD 4 character is facing a SPD 4 Mashing Machine with one less DEX. The Automaton, being mindless, attacks whenever his phase and DEX comes up. Unfortunately for the character the Mashing Machine is a huge sledgehammer and he can't afford to be hit and mashed into putty. He dodges the hammer blow, but since they are the same SPD and he is forced to act first because of his higher DEX he stops dodging before the next blow and must wait to avoid the next attack. He is forced to either run out of range of the mashing machine on his higher DEX or Hold his Action to dodge again. And so on.

 

However, then he realizes that if he slows to SPD 3 then when the hammer swings for him on Phase 3 and he cancels his Phase 4 action to Dodge, then he will still be dodging when it swings again on Phase 6 and he lives! On Phase 8 he can now smash the machine's gears with his wrench. When the Masher throws a pound on him on Phase 9, he cancels his Phase 12 action to Dodge. He is still dodging when phase 12 rolls around and lives again! By intelligently SLOWING down to SPD 3 he proves victorious!

 

Now if the automaton had an ounce of sense, as the others were pointing out in the intelligent predator example above, it would wait for the SPD 3 character to stop dodging and then swing again. Then our PC would be doomed!

 

 

 

Or.... he could attack it first, and prevent it from attacking back! If he stays and dodges, he will eventually loose. He needs to run, or attack. Take the initiative. Force the machine to Dodge (which I doubt it would). I doubt it's DCV is very high either, especially considering its mindless pursuit on hurting him...........

[sbarron]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

-- If I didn't limit OCV then it throws the whole campaign out of balance. One character can get OCV 20' date=' and one has OCV 4. One has no chance to hit the master villain, one can easily do Called Shots to the eye socket. I have never run a campaign where NONE of the characters were interested in making themselves better in combat, and just happily spent all their XP on non-combat skills.[/quote']I think I'd argue your players threw the campaign out of balance, here. One is a combat superstar and the other is basically inept. Trying to run a game for both of them in the same party will indeed be difficult. But you can't blame the CV levels for that. While pairing weapon masters and shoe cobblers in the same combat happens a bit in fiction, it's really hard to do in gaming...

[caris]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

I think I'd argue your players threw the campaign out of balance' date=' here. One is a combat superstar and the other is basically inept. Trying to run a game for both of them in the same party will indeed be difficult. But you can't blame the CV levels for that. While pairing weapon masters and shoe cobblers in the same combat happens a bit in fiction, it's really hard to do in gaming...[/quote']

 

Yet, if the group doesn't set some guidelines (usually done by GMs setting caps), it is really hard to get everyone on the same page. An OCV of 4 is an 18 Dex and one CSV, that does not sound "inept" to me (inept to me is like an 8 or less Dex and no WF or CS), until I find out that an OCV of 20 is a reasonable expectation in the game. So, yeah, some how the group needs to get on the same page as to what they can expect the CV ranges to run. It doesn't have to come from GM fiat in the form of caps, but they need to get to the same page.

[braincraft]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

Yet' date=' if the group doesn't set some guidelines (usually done by GMs setting caps), it is really hard to get everyone on the same page. An OCV of 4 is an 18 Dex and one CSV, that does not sound "inept" to me (inept to me is like an 8 or less Dex and no WF or CS), until I find out that an OCV of 20 is a reasonable expectation in the game. So, yeah, some how the group needs to get on the same page as to what they can expect the CV ranges to run. It doesn't have to come from GM fiat in the form of caps, but they need to get to the same page.[/quote']

 

18 DEX and a combat level is 7 OCV.

 

4 OCV is 10 DEX and a CSL.

[caris]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

18 DEX and a combat level is 7 OCV.

 

4 OCV is 10 DEX and a CSL.

 

 

Your sorry, brain fry this morning. Still any CSL and/or a Dex better than 11 does not scream "inept" to me.

[ghost-angel]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

Sorry, but its pretty simple. Assume a SPD 4 character is facing a SPD 4 Mashing Machine with one less DEX. The Automaton, being mindless, attacks whenever his phase and DEX comes up. Unfortunately for the character the Mashing Machine is a huge sledgehammer and he can't afford to be hit and mashed into putty. He dodges the hammer blow, but since they are the same SPD and he is forced to act first because of his higher DEX he stops dodging before the next blow and must wait to avoid the next attack. He is forced to either run out of range of the mashing machine on his higher DEX or Hold his Action to dodge again. And so on.

 

However, then he realizes that if he slows to SPD 3 then when the hammer swings for him on Phase 3 and he cancels his Phase 4 action to Dodge, then he will still be dodging when it swings again on Phase 6 and he lives! On Phase 8 he can now smash the machine's gears with his wrench. When the Masher throws a pound on him on Phase 9, he cancels his Phase 12 action to Dodge. He is still dodging when phase 12 rolls around and lives again! By intelligently SLOWING down to SPD 3 he proves victorious!

 

Now if the automaton had an ounce of sense, as the others were pointing out in the intelligent predator example above, it would wait for the SPD 3 character to stop dodging and then swing again. Then our PC would be doomed!

 

He's either

 

1) Fighting Wrong

2) So outclassed he shouldn't be in the fight to begin with.

 

Is the character utilizing Skill Levels? does the DEX Difference create a CV Difference? Is the character using the environment? Was this one on one?

 

A suggested strategy:

The character should keep the same SPD, Hold his action until after his opponent Attacks. If the attack succeeds Abort to Roll With A Punch Maneuver. If the Attack fails you are now free to attack back.

[Manic Typist]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

If the attack succeeds Abort to Roll With A Punch Maneuver. If the Attack fails you are now free to attack back.

 

Or if the attack is SO huge as might be indicated by the example............. he could attack first..............

 

After all, Han shot first!

[ghost-angel]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

Or if the attack is SO huge as might be indicated by the example............. he could attack first..............

 

After all, Han shot first!

 

Yep. Perfectly valid tactic. Hit it first so it can't hit back.

[Markdoc]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

A suggested strategy:

The character should keep the same SPD, Hold his action until after his opponent Attacks. If the attack succeeds Abort to Roll With A Punch Maneuver. If the Attack fails you are now free to attack back.

 

Or, abort to block - if the character has a good OCV, this works better. In either case, work out if your opponent is high OCV or high DCV, place your levels appropriately and counter attack.

 

Or, switch levels onto DCV and dodge (half move) and delay (half move). After they attack, if you are still standing switch levels into OCV and then Whap! You move first, so you can switch them back again, prior to attack.

 

Alternately, if you are faster, throw your levels on OCV and moveby, so that after you've done your damage you are far away from your opponent, and he has to make more than a half move to reach you. If he throws all of his levels into OCV to try and hit you with a moveby/through, you should have an easy shot, when it's your turn. Next turn, take advantage of moving first to do it again.

 

Also remember that you get to move first and your opponent can't assign levels (if they have any) until their action unless they abort. Take advantage of that to get in shots at a balance that you want.

 

There are lots of alternatives to "stand there and take it".

 

cheers, Mark

[ghost-angel]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

Or' date=' abort to block - if the character has a good OCV, this works better. In either case, work out if your opponent is high OCV or high DCV, place your levels appropriately and counter attack.[/quote']

 

Abort To Block runs into the same problem Dodge does - it must be declared before the Attack Roll.

 

Roll With A Punch has the advantage of being the only maneuver that may be declared After the Attack Roll (but Before Damage). Sure you take 1/2 Damage, but you don't Abort your Phase if the attacker missed.