Spell Active/ Real Cost in Average Games

[krayzdave]

in my thread on building a unique magic system out of trading secrets in to powerful creatures or deities for spells, i posted this question:

 

what is the limit that GMs put of the Active/Real cost of spells in their games. i have a group of guys that are new to the system, so they won't bug me to much up front, but once the get the hang of it they will really try to exploit the game. if i give them an inch now they'll take ten feet later in the game. so, i need help setting a good guideline for how much a character can spend on a spells. also, should there be a minimum a character has to spend on spells???

 

thanks for your help.

[Markdoc]

Re: Spell Active/ Real Cost in Average Games

 

in my thread on building a unique magic system out of trading secrets in to powerful creatures or deities for spells, i posted this question:

 

what is the limit that GMs put of the Active/Real cost of spells in their games. i have a group of guys that are new to the system, so they won't bug me to much up front, but once the get the hang of it they will really try to exploit the game. if i give them an inch now they'll take ten feet later in the game. so, i need help setting a good guideline for how much a character can spend on a spells. also, should there be a minimum a character has to spend on spells???

 

thanks for your help.

 

I don't use point limits. It's a lot more trouble than it's worth, IMO, since some traditional (in gaming fantasy) spells are surprisingly expensive while some cheap spells (like flash, or forcefield) are hugely effective.

 

Instead, I'd recomend controlling spells, either individually (by defining them yourself), or systemically (for example, by requiring a skill roll - high active point spells will need correspndingly high skill rolls). In most of my games I control active points multiple ways - by requiring spells to take skill rolls *and* by requiring "Mana" to cast (Long term Endurance) for example *and* by having magic styles which only grant access to a limited range of spells (so you don't get a swiss army mage who has the right spell for every encounter).

 

cheers, Mark

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Spell Active/ Real Cost in Average Games

 

I write all the spells in the game myself (I have about 300 done, and a lot more being worked on). They span from 15 to 120 active points. I use a multipower based magic system, so real cost isn't as much a big deal - the reserve is half the max active the character can cast, and the slots run 1 to 4 points, most being 2.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Spell Active/ Real Cost in Average Games

 

Depends entirely on the magic system and the level of power of the setting. Ive got a few magic systems with low AP, in the 15 and 30 range, and I've got a few that can get up to 150 AP and higher, and I've got a bunch in between as well.

 

I discuss this in some detail in this document, specifically under the RELATIVE POWER header.

 

Magic Design Concepts

[Outsider]

Re: Spell Active/ Real Cost in Average Games

 

45 active points is pretty standard for FH games, from what I've seen. But, as the previous 3 posters have said, what you really need to look at is play balance rather than active points.

 

40 active points of Entangle, for example, tend to be pretty effective in FH, where most characters will have 20 or less STR and rely on foci that are unusable while entangled for their larger attacks. 40 points of RKA, on the other hand (while pretty nice in its own way) isnt generally going to take most heavily armored warriors out of a fight in one shot.

[tancred]

Re: Spell Active/ Real Cost in Average Games

 

I have to agree with everyone else, it isn't just the point costs that matter.

I'm starting a Turakian Age game, using the published Grimoires as my magic system. There is a wide range of Active Point costs just in the books. For the game I'm going to run, several spells are far too powerful and I will be toning them down. Others, even with high Active Point costs, just aren't that powerful. I suspect they will either get ignored entirely or that I'll be asked to re-write them to make them more useful.

 

Because of the Requires A Skill Roll Limitation, and the default for it being -1 per 10 Active Points, I prefer to see spells in the 10-60 Active Point cost range, but you still have to judge each spell individually for effectiveness.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Spell Active/ Real Cost in Average Games

 

I think that most magic systems (and my own Space Wizards setting is no exception) tend to have the effectiveness of magic be on par with what can be done with normal equipment. In terms of Active Points, offensive spells will tend to be on par with swords and bows, defensive spells with armor that can be worn, and so forth.

 

That said, it's just a tendency, a guideline of sorts. Sometimes the "feel" of magic in a setting demands that it be kept low-level and only capable of minor effects; in other settings, magic is huge and impressive, and can do a lot more than ordinary equipment. At times, even in "average-level magic" settings, the only way a particular effect can be achieved is by throwing anything resembling Active Point limits right out the thirtieth-story window.

 

As to Real Points, I try to heap as many Limitations on a spell as I can while still making it a truly practical ability, just to keep the Real Point cost as low as possible. After all, non-spellcasters don't pay any points at all for their equipment (except in special cases). The Turakian Age approach of dividing the final Real Point cost by 3 is meant to address this issue (though I don't use it in SW).

 

So the short answer is: go with whatever works in your setting.

[Coyotecloudchas]

Re: Spell Active/ Real Cost in Average Games

 

Agreed with above posters. Some of my characters ending up spending over half their points on spells, and others just dabbled in magic. I usually start my campaigns with everyone limited 25-30 Active point attacks, but when they achieve uber status they can be sitting as high as 60-70 Active points.

As someone else said, another thing is Active/Real Points is not always a very good measure of effectiveness. Force Fields, Entangles, Drains vs SPD, and certain defenses like Lack of Weakness or Power Defense can be unbalancing even at low point levels.

[CTaylor]

Re: Spell Active/ Real Cost in Average Games

 

I've used a power pool based magic system for a while so the active cost limit is based completely on what people can manage to afford. I'm in the process of changing to a different system and the point limit is based on what mages can afford in terms of magic skill roll - since every spell require a roll. The average mage ends up around 30-40 active points in power, I've not seen anyone go higher than that yet, although that's pretty powerful.

[eternal_sage]

Re: Spell Active/ Real Cost in Average Games

 

in my oriental setting, the max (think level 9 wizard spells) is 60 AP. things are set up into 4 levels. 1 is 10 AP, 2 is 20 AP, 3 is 40 AP, and 4 is 60. seems to do well, as the dabblers can get a few simple spells, while the all out mages can get the HARDCORE stuff...

[UltraRob]

Re: Spell Active/ Real Cost in Average Games

 

in my oriental setting' date=' the max (think level 9 wizard spells) is 60 AP. things are set up into 4 levels. 1 is 10 AP, 2 is 20 AP, 3 is 40 AP, and 4 is 60. seems to do well, as the dabblers can get a few simple spells, while the all out mages can get the HARDCORE stuff...[/quote']

 

Eternal Sage, are you requiring your players to pay a seperate cost to determine their "magic level"? Say, 10pts to be Level 1, and 40pts to be Level 4 or somesuch?

 

Rob

[eternal_sage]

Re: Spell Active/ Real Cost in Average Games

 

yes, sorry, its a perk. its actually just the reputation perk, defined to be with other mages (basically the more advanced you are, the more likely it is that someone has heard of you before). however, i don't let anyone start with over 2 levels in it.

 

i used to do it with the fringe benefit perk (membership and rank) but this way gives the players a little extra use from it.

[Rapier]

Re: Spell Active/ Real Cost in Average Games

 

On average? 50 - 60 AP. Certain spells, after aproval, can exceed that amount (by a significant margin depending on effect).

 

But I think that is a good benchmark.

[Outsider]

Re: Spell Active/ Real Cost in Average Games

 

In my old home-brew campaign, a wizards 'level' was determined by the total number of points he spent on spells. After all, which is more powerful? The guy with 50 small spells or the guy with 5 big ones?

[eternal_sage]

Re: Spell Active/ Real Cost in Average Games

 

it would depend. i think i would trade (for a certain character type, not all) a single meteor swarm for 10 magic missles. sure, its only one go, but its going to be felt, where as 1d4 PING is likely to be laughed at.

 

 

my personal opinion, only, however. and it only really works out that way for damage and healing spells. buffs, defensive spells, and the like are usually just fine at lower levels.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Spell Active/ Real Cost in Average Games

 

in my thread on building a unique magic system out of trading secrets in to powerful creatures or deities for spells, i posted this question:

 

what is the limit that GMs put of the Active/Real cost of spells in their games. i have a group of guys that are new to the system, so they won't bug me to much up front, but once the get the hang of it they will really try to exploit the game. if i give them an inch now they'll take ten feet later in the game. so, i need help setting a good guideline for how much a character can spend on a spells. also, should there be a minimum a character has to spend on spells???

 

thanks for your help.

 

Just remember that the most valuable skill to have as a GM for HERO is the ability to firmly and fairly say: “No”. There are so many ways the system can be abused, often without the intent to abuse, that you have to have the ability to look at a proposed power, or in your case spell, judge it based on the game you are running and be able to make a yes/no determination on it. If the answer is no don’t be afraid to tell your players that, but also make sure you include some feedback on what would be required to make it ok, if possible. For instance a weather changing spell may seem over powerful to you but if you have the player add a large Extra Time requirement or perhaps the need for a rare and expensive item as a focus then it may bring the spell back into balance. Hope that helps.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Spell Active/ Real Cost in Average Games

 

Well. As everyone else opined, it's really a matter of what you want magic to be able to do. In my "Hey, this isn't the Wild West!" setting, I have three types of magic:

 

Injun Magic; This is raw spiritualist magic. It involves summons, change environment powers, and other similar 'druidic' type magics. With a little Herbalism thrown in, but not much. Healing and Shape Shift powers live here as well. I haven't developed a single spell for it, it's just a guideline. This magic is very time intensive, but extremely effective. By which I mean, I know in advance that it takes a while to summon a Greater Bear Spirit, but Heaven help the poor slobs who have to contend with it.

 

European/Gypsy Magic (also an offshoot, Bardic magic); this stuff tends to work reliably & fairly quickly, but it doesn't do anything flashy or dramatic. It's divinations, the odd abjuration (life support magic, not 'Force Fields' or anything so 'wow.' -- maybe some granted Power Defense). It involves the use of Tarot, Runes and other similar trappings. Fast, Reliable, but not dramatic.

 

Weird Science; I'm fortunate enough to have someone playing a Weird Scientist. This "magic" is extremely flashy -- your RKAs, Force Fields & such all live here. Unfortunately, every device/weird science object has some sort of fatal flaw or major drawback. Every. Single. One. So while it may be incredibly flashy, it's also highly unreliable.

 

I have rough caps I use in my games, but I didn't enforce any of them. I simply drafted some guidelines and said "If you're playing one of these, or expect to have access to this magic type, let me know and we'll flesh it out further." So there's more than one way to go about the design.

 

And, of course, if you're the GM, you can inflict more severe penalties for differing effects & types of magic. Something else to bear in mind as you roll on.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Spell Active/ Real Cost in Average Games

 

Oh, and if you're looking for 'conventional' design, I have both a Cleric Spell Thread & a Wizard Spell Thread that converts d20/D&D magic to the HERO system. Killer Shrike has done his own set of conversions as well, which you can find on his site.

 

Be advised to view the documents you need HERO Designer v3. If you do not have HERO Designer... why don't you have HERO Designer? What are you, some kind of luddite? Do you have a computer? Do you play HERO? You owe it to yourself to thusly own HERO Designer.

 

I had a $25.00 gift card. It bought my licensed copy of HDv3. It was the best twenty five bucks I've ever spent on a gaming supplement.