Need Magic System Advice

[krayzdave]

i've recently been working on a magic system for a game. here's the idea:

 

magic is granted by the god of secrets, but in order to gain the power one needs, you must have a secret to trade the god. now i want a few things to be factored into this whole situation.

 

1) the better the secret (i.e. the juicier it is) the more power is granted for the spell effect, so if you invert this the spell could be weaker

 

2) the less people who know the spell the more powerful the spell is, so you could invert this for a weaker spell

 

3) the more fewer times the secret is exchanged the more powerful the spell, again you could invert this for a weaker spell.

 

my question is then, how exactly do i express this in the form of a power? should i have them make spells and just increase or decrease the spell power by a percentage based on the quality of the secret??

 

I NEED SOME HELP!

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Need Magic System Advice

 

This sounds like something the GM works on the fly when allowing players to buy new spells. It really won't affect how the spells are used afterwards.

 

The way I would do it is this:

1) Character wants a new spell, for example a spell to create water.

2) Character journeys to the home temple of the water god, or summons up a servant of the water god, or travels to a sacred spring that bubbles out of a steep and dangerous mountain, or some such thing to contact the god, whether directly or indirectly.

3) After some ritual purification, chanting, skyclad gadding-about, whatever, the character offers up the secret to the god.

4) The GM decides, based on the personality of the god and the significance of the secret to him, how powerful the create water spell can be.

5) Player builds the spell within the Active and Real point limits set by the GM, and spends the XP to learn it.

 

Statting this process out using the Hero power-building rules will get wonky as all-get-out.

[krayzdave]

Re: Need Magic System Advice

 

This sounds like something the GM works on the fly when allowing players to buy new spells. It really won't affect how the spells are used afterwards.

 

The way I would do it is this:

1) Character wants a new spell, for example a spell to create water.

2) Character journeys to the home temple of the water god, or summons up a servant of the water god, or travels to a sacred spring that bubbles out of a steep and dangerous mountain, or some such thing to contact the god, whether directly or indirectly.

3) After some ritual purification, chanting, skyclad gadding-about, whatever, the character offers up the secret to the god.

4) The GM decides, based on the personality of the god and the significance of the secret to him, how powerful the create water spell can be.

5) Player builds the spell within the Active and Real point limits set by the GM, and spends the XP to learn it.

 

Statting this process out using the Hero power-building rules will get wonky as all-get-out.

 

this sounds good. i actually hadn't thought of doing it that way. however there is one thing i have to ask. what happens if, after this process, someone finds out the secret?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Need Magic System Advice

 

Eh, secrets have a shelf life. Somebody's going to find out eventually. I mean, the character had to find it out from someone or something in the first place, and then the god found out in exchange for some power. It's still a secret until it gets spread around a pretty good bit. And most people who hear of an arcane secret won't even understand what it is they're hearing.

 

Unless, of course, the caliber of secret you were expecting the gods to trade for was along the lines of "Guess who Jennifer likes?" That will be all over school inside a week.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Need Magic System Advice

 

The whole thing sounds really iffy to me; I love the idea, but enforcement is tricky.

 

Inre: the question of what happens after the secret expires. If I trade you 10 gold for information, and next week the information is no longer any good, what happens to the gold you gave me?

 

All depends on how I spent it, yeah? Point being, the gold isn't in any way affected by the secret; the two are now divorced. Once you've got the power, it's your power to wield as you see fit.

[krayzdave]

Re: Need Magic System Advice

 

hmm, that definately makes sense. i knew it would help to have other people brainstorming with me.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Need Magic System Advice

 

You might also consider making appropriate sacrifices to appropriate deities; i.e., you might burn fishing nets, or feed the fish, to appease a Water Deity (or some such). You tell Secrets to a Secrets Deity. You melt or burn things for a Fire Deity, yadda yadda. Sacrificial magic, basically.

[krayzdave]

Re: Need Magic System Advice

 

that sounds cool.... the thing i'm steering away from is the gods as a source of magical power. in fact, if i could come up with a way to of this secret magic i would. but my brain is tied in knots. i don't want my wizards serving deities.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Need Magic System Advice

 

Define a numerical rating system for secrets, and apply a formula to it to determine equivalent point values.

 

For instance:

 

Major Secret: 20

Secret: 15

Minor Secret: 10

 

Known Only to Character x3

Known To A Handful Of People x2

Known To A Small Group Of People x1

Fairly Well Known x.5

 

If a character trades a Major Secret only they know, they can learn a Spell with 60 Active Points.

 

If a character trades a Secret known to only a handful of people they can learn a Spell with 30 Active Points.

 

If a character trades a Minor Secret that is pretty well known, thats only worth a 5 AP cantrip.

 

Etc.

 

Adjust the base numbers to suit the AP scale you want in the campaign.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Need Magic System Advice

 

Of course, this scheme encourages a character to kill off all the other people that knows a secret, which would seem to predispose the Magic System to assassins / murderers. Of course, dead men tell no tales -- or secrets -- so maybe that suits a darker god of secrets whose purview was keeping things secret. Such a god would be an enemy of enlightenment and education, and even civilization. That may not be the logical conclusion you had in mind, so you should think thru the ramifications of including how well known a secret is into your system.

 

 

As an aside, another example of something kind of like this is the magic system used in Dave Duncan's Man of His Word series...

 

 

The basis of magic is the name of dead Faeries, which are very long. Those who know names have nearly exponential power, but this is belied by the number of people that also know the name and natural proclivity to magic.

 

Those with 1 name are Gifted, usually being superhumanly good at just one thing or perhaps two or three to a lesser extent; a few rare Gifted might have an actual supernatural ability such as far sight.

 

Those with two names are Adepts and are just good at basically everything. Those with three names are Mages (iirc) and can do magic. Those with four names are uberpowerful, can't recall the title, and those with five names disintegrate or become gods, depending.

 

People that know any words at all are very rare in the general population, those that know more than one are extremely rare -- couple handfuls at most.

 

One of the characters in the books goes around and kills other people that know the name they know to increase their power.

 

 

 

[krayzdave]

Re: Need Magic System Advice

 

wow, that sounds great. i'm gonna play with that idea a little. thanks alot.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Need Magic System Advice

 

No problem. And if you're in the mood for a bit of reading, this document on my website is all about advice on designing Magic Systems: Magic System Design.

[Markdoc]

Re: Need Magic System Advice

 

this sounds good. i actually hadn't thought of doing it that way. however there is one thing i have to ask. what happens if' date=' after this process, someone finds out the secret?[/quote']

 

The other possibility is to give the player the -2 limitation "independant" with the caveat that if the secret is discovered, the spell goes away and the points used on it are lost. To make it playable, I'd assume discovering the secret means "discovering that the secret was swapped for magical power", not just finding it out.

 

That means it would be possible to try to destroy a mage by "finding the secret of his power" - a trope that turns up in a variety of fantasy novels. That way a player runs the risk of losing some of his magic, but gets a nice limitation to offset that.

 

cheers, Mark

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Need Magic System Advice

 

i don't want my wizards serving deities.

 

It's a long-standing part of the genre that wizards deal with the higher powers. Even Dr Strange calls on Agamotto, Hoggoth, Oshtur, and others. It's not serving them, per se, at least not in the way that priests do.

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Need Magic System Advice

 

i don't want my wizards serving deities.

 

It does look as though this system of magic is more a trading relationship than a master-servant one.

If, however, you want to further distance your wizards from divine power then you can just play around with the source of their magic.

Do the other gods approve of power being bartered to mortals? If not then perhaps the god of secrets is a renegade hunted by his own kind with his priesthood outlawed, he might be something other than a 'normal' god or just a survivor from an earlier or alien pantheon. Perhaps these trades are the only way he can gain enough power to survive, so the relationship is more equal.

Alternatively wizards could trade their secrets to other things, 'the spirits', 'the fey', 'demons' etc. To such creatures a secret could mean power, both mystical and temporal, thus they are prepared to grant magic in return for it. You could even allow different entities to bid for the secret, offering various powers or different spins on the same ability.

One final spin could be to link the system to true names i.e. if you get hold of an entity's secret name then it can bribe you with magical power in return for you allowing it to remove its name from your mind. But that's probably too far from your original concept.

(Rambling is fun!)

Cheers.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Need Magic System Advice

 

It's a long-standing part of the genre that wizards deal with the higher powers. Even Dr Strange calls on Agamotto' date=' Hoggoth, Oshtur, and others. It's not serving them, per se, at least not in the way that priests do.[/quote']

 

Yep -- the original pre-D&D meaning of Invocation in fact

 

invocation n. The act or an instance of invoking, especially an appeal to a higher power for assistance.

[krayzdave]

Re: Need Magic System Advice

 

The other possibility is to give the player the -2 limitation "independant" with the caveat that if the secret is discovered, the spell goes away and the points used on it are lost. To make it playable, I'd assume discovering the secret means "discovering that the secret was swapped for magical power", not just finding it out.

 

That means it would be possible to try to destroy a mage by "finding the secret of his power" - a trope that turns up in a variety of fantasy novels. That way a player runs the risk of losing some of his magic, but gets a nice limitation to offset that.

 

cheers, Mark

 

 

now THAT souns awesome to. i've owned this book, but i still haven't honed my creative use of it. i really enjoy hearing what you guys have to say. that suggestion rocks.

 

with that idea coupled with the killing off other mages idea, you would have a seriously blood thirsty magic system.

[krayzdave]

Re: Need Magic System Advice

 

It does look as though this system of magic is more a trading relationship than a master-servant one.

If, however, you want to further distance your wizards from divine power then you can just play around with the source of their magic.

Do the other gods approve of power being bartered to mortals? If not then perhaps the god of secrets is a renegade hunted by his own kind with his priesthood outlawed, he might be something other than a 'normal' god or just a survivor from an earlier or alien pantheon. Perhaps these trades are the only way he can gain enough power to survive, so the relationship is more equal.

Alternatively wizards could trade their secrets to other things, 'the spirits', 'the fey', 'demons' etc. To such creatures a secret could mean power, both mystical and temporal, thus they are prepared to grant magic in return for it. You could even allow different entities to bid for the secret, offering various powers or different spins on the same ability.

One final spin could be to link the system to true names i.e. if you get hold of an entity's secret name then it can bribe you with magical power in return for you allowing it to remove its name from your mind. But that's probably too far from your original concept.

(Rambling is fun!)

Cheers.

 

 

OMG!!!! THIS IS ANOTHER FANTASTIC SET OF IDEAS!!!!

 

you know i was playing with the idea of true name as a secret. but after i played with the idea i came up with some other things to. tell me what you think of this:

 

although there are a lot of secrets out there of varying levels of power, i was thinking that to any one person, i.e. especially a mage, certain secrets would be more powerful to the mage in particular. i kinda came up with a hierarchy of secrets: at the top would be the true name, then would be knowing who the mage's lover or best friend was, then would be the mage's greatest emotional stimuli (i.e. greatest joy or greatest pain), the lineage of the mage, the mage's most prized possession, and the mage's life goal or greatest dream. i figured that if someone else got ahold of these secrets then they could.....well, i haven't really figured out what would happen, but it would be bad. i guess if you destroyed the source of a secret you would have a pretty good hold on the mage because you would be stealing his power from him....

 

any thoughts?? suggestions??

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Need Magic System Advice

 

Sounds fun. Would probably need some pompous occult title for each secret such as the 'secret of the heart and the secret of the soul' or 'the diamond secret and the ruby secret'. No point in making things easier for laypeople after all.

Could lead to some interesting plot hooks and story ideas.

Wizardly orders could demand one of these secrets from new members as a show of loyalty and possibly as a way of raising power; not to mention insurance against renegades.

Would mages in love exchange secrets? Thus meaning that capturing one leaves the other vulnerable? What if they had an almighty argument and ended up hating each other, things could get very messy.

Alternatively captured servants of the supernatural persuasion could reveal various secrets.

The big issue, however, is are these secrets straightforward handicaps incurred by wielding magic i.e. anyone who uses magic can be controlled by finding out their secrets or are they trade offs i.e. by investing these secrets with supernatural power (perhaps by sacrificing them to the god/spirits in question), a mage gains power but makes themself vulnerable to anyone who learns these secrets.

Last point. How do you find out a wizard's true name? Can you just ask his mother? Is there a heavily defended retirement home for the parents of magic users with an army of guards dedicated to keeping those names a secret?

[krayzdave]

Re: Need Magic System Advice

 

what's the usual Active/Real cost of spells in your games??? i am trying to set a game limit and need to know what would be good.

[krayzdave]

Re: Need Magic System Advice

 

Alright, utilizing some tips that you guys gave me, i've come up with a mechanic for the secrets based magic system. it goes like this:

 

Major Secret (Extremely Important Secret)=25pts.

Average Secret (Very Important Secret)=20pts.

Minor Secret (Important Secret)=15pts.

Unimportant Secret=5

 

Known Only to Character +1

Known to Handful of People (2-7, including character) +3/4

Known to Small Group of People (50 or less, including character) +1/2

Known to Large Group of People (200 or less, including character) +1/4

Known to More Than 200 People +0

Known to More Than 300 -1 (and +1 for ever increment of a hundred)

 

1000 Years Old or More +2

500 Years Old or More +1

250 Years Old or More +3/4

125 Years Old or More +1/2

75 Years Old or More +1/4

74 Years Old or Less +0

 

 

to clarify, my rational for 200 or less people still being a +1/4 is because the mage community is only like 175 people or so. so, if a secret was known by only mages, such as the fact that mages exists, then it would still be of value.

 

my rational for the age modifier is that the older a secret is, the more valuable it's uncovering would be. also, if a secret can stand the test of time, then it proves itself inherantly to be a trustworthy secret. thus, it's value would increase like a fine wine.

 

so the mechanic works like building a power:

 

if you have a major secret that was known by a small group of people and was 75 years old it would look like this:

 

Major Secret (25pts.) X (1 + 1/2 [small group] + 1/4 [75 years old]) = 43.75 rounded up to 44.

 

So a character with this secret could then make a power with a Active Cost (or should it be real???????) of 44 points.

 

Does this make sense?? is it viable??? words of counsil please.....

[krayzdave]

Re: Need Magic System Advice

 

i've come up with another idea as i am fine tuning this system.

 

i've decided that they're are only certain days in which you can meet with a deity or powerful mortal (like a devil or a powerful fairy). these days are on equinoxes and other astrological days, and on special days to the entity itself.

 

the reason i have done this is because i like the idea of a mage stumbling across a secret and writing it down, but then having to hold out until the proper time to cash it in for spells. i love the idea of two mages battling out to see who goes first to present their secret.